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I only have one "modern" SPAAG, the Marksman, so I am curious if the radar system in it is the same as other SPAAGs?

 

I ask because I find it almost useless. In my last mission a G91 - of course - was flying around in front of me, approaching, going away, going up, down, left, right, and my radar simply did not see him. The friendly F-86 at well over twice the distance? No problem. But so the G91 sees me, turns into me, fires the laser-missile and blows me up, all without by radar ever seeing him even once.

 

I wouldn't say this is typical, in most cases the radar is at lease useful as an early warning device, but lock-on is extremely problematic and generally and dramatically favours friendly aircraft. When it does lock in, it then happily follows no problem behind trees and hills, puts the market on helicopters below the horizon, and many other obviously wrong problems.

 

So is this the case for all the SPAAGs? It seems the Gep has no problems shooting me down with trivial ease, yet I don't think I get more than 1 kill per 5 attempts in the Marksman.

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trs to lock enemy in gunner view, somehow in 3rd person you only lock on friendly

and marksman is probably like the rest of the 8.0, at least it has a fully rotatable radar, unlike shilka, m163 or sidam with very limited or no radar search area (they can lock on if you directly see aircraft)

sry if cant explain it better, english not my native language

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Each radar behaves differently. Some require gunner view to get a lock. Generally those with search radars can get locks more easily.

 

When they first came out they were idealized and had no problems getting and maintaining locks. Naturally there were complaints and then the radars got "balanced" with ground clutter, offset locks, and a weird need to lock on to friendly aircraft. 

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I have the Gepard, the Type 87 and the SIDAM 25.

For the Gepard and Type 87, which I guess are pretty similar to the Marksman, it is almost impossible to get a lock onto enemies that are directly above it. Kind of as if they added the radar's cone of silence. 

 

Sometimes they randomly lose lock of the target and when a target passes directly above you, it often sends the turret into a quick vomit-inducing spin. 

 

The most secure way to get a good lock on the proper target is to use the gunner's view as suggested above. 

 

For the SIDAM 25, this is the only way to get a lock. AFAIK, the Shilka and the M163 work like this as well. 

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Radar SPAA is very inconsistent with its radar lock. Sometimes it keep lock even through trees and sometimes lock breaks randomly in direct POV. Still the biggest issue for me is random switching lock from your target to missile it shoots. M163 did have only visual so its natural one could lock target only from gunners position. Shilka can lock outside gunenrs view but its very inconsistent. Even Gepard sometimes cannot lock target outside gunners view.

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9 hours ago, PointyPuffin said:

For the Gepard and Type 87, which I guess are pretty similar to the Marksman

Unfortunately not really, those are much better in about every way.

 

The Marksman's radar is not that good and has issues picking up targets if they are too close or high enough above you. It also lacks the IFF tag system most others have so it will happily lock on to friendlies even behind your intended target.


Locking itself for all SPAA is quite random outside the gunner sight with only a few even capable of doing so at all, anymore.

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11 hours ago, PointyPuffin said:

I have the Gepard, the Type 87 and the SIDAM 25.

For the Gepard and Type 87, which I guess are pretty similar to the Marksman, it is almost impossible to get a lock onto enemies that are directly above it. Kind of as if they added the radar's cone of silence. 

 

Sometimes they randomly lose lock of the target and when a target passes directly above you, it often sends the turret into a quick vomit-inducing spin. 

 

The most secure way to get a good lock on the proper target is to use the gunner's view as suggested above. 

 

For the SIDAM 25, this is the only way to get a lock. AFAIK, the Shilka and the M163 work like this as well. 

 

Same with the french AMX-30 DCA, the lock is not reliable and gives motion sickness when the view starts to spin, the tracking of ennemy aircraft seems completely random and epileptic but perfect on allies...

The most infuriating thing is when the turret goes wild and prevent you to correct the aim when you have only few seconds to avoid dying in a hail of bullets !
I thought it was another bias against french tech but i share your pain fellows spaag players !

Edited by Koenig_Monster
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The radar on most SPAA is also a "Red Flag" to heli as they can detect it and target you. The radar model in game is really poor at best and full of errors. The ADATS which has a search radar can still target with it down as it targets using the TV Lock system, but it is also modeled like radar so can not lock with ground issues, which is BS but typical bias to USA vehicles. With the ADATS, if you can see it in sniper mode, you can lock it up. Gajin has given the Ka heli the power to detect this TV lock same as if it were radar, again russian bias. Even passive guided missiles are Miraculously detected by Ka heli. You will note that air power gets fire and forget missiles but ground units will not see that..........ever????????????

Also of note, the target lock on the ADATS in real life, works on ground units as well,,,,,the TV lock system doesn't care, walk/drive/fly it kills it.

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I think its only possible to get a 3rd

 person lock when the enemy is detected by your search radar.

 

On 25/02/2021 at 19:54, RealMajorHavok said:

So is this the case for all the SPAAGs?

Yes, for every Spaa that uses a radar to track the enemy.

This is the reason why  the Sidam 25 is actually the best 8.x Spaa. 

 

17 minutes ago, barial said:

Gajin has given the Ka heli the power to detect this TV lock same as if it were radar, again russian bias. Even passive guided missiles are Miraculously detected by Ka heli.

The Ka52 can detect incoming missiles and also gets a laser warning from the targeting laser of the ADATS.

 

19 minutes ago, barial said:

but it is also modeled like radar so can not lock with ground issues,

Nope, works 100% fine.

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3 hours ago, barial said:

The radar on most SPAA is also a "Red Flag" to heli as they can detect it and target you. The radar model in game is really poor at best and full of errors. The ADATS which has a search radar can still target with it down as it targets using the TV Lock system, but it is also modeled like radar so can not lock with ground issues, which is BS but typical bias to USA vehicles. With the ADATS, if you can see it in sniper mode, you can lock it up. Gajin has given the Ka heli the power to detect this TV lock same as if it were radar, again russian bias. Even passive guided missiles are Miraculously detected by Ka heli. You will note that air power gets fire and forget missiles but ground units will not see that..........ever????????????

Also of note, the target lock on the ADATS in real life, works on ground units as well,,,,,the TV lock system doesn't care, walk/drive/fly it kills it.

you say rUsSiAn bIaS this and rUsSiAn bIaS that but you forget usa has the most advantage (handycap) of all nations

ok ka-50/52 with vihkr is strong but not fire and forget and its at 10.3-10.7, now usa get a fire and forget for a7-d at 9.7!!!, isnt it crazy? also usa has more cpapble spaa than rus, m163 is better than shilka at 8.0 and york is soo much better than zsu-37-2 at 8.3 AND york radar system did not work IRL, would be nice if gaijin make it realistic, ops that would be a bbias move against usa becouse uSa sUfFeR

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 03/03/2021 at 22:09, ponnes said:

I think its only possible to get a 3rd person lock when the enemy is detected by your search radar.

But this is precisely my issue - in spite of perfect conditions and relative speeds, my radar simply does not see the target. Forget lock-on, it often simply doesn't see the targets at all no matter the conditions.

 

The lock-on failure is another annoyance, I will try gunner view.

 

On 03/03/2021 at 22:09, ponnes said:

This is the reason why  the Sidam 25 is actually the best 8.x Spaa. 

Sorry, what is the reason? I do not see a reason mentioned.

 

I do see significant differences in the SPAA effectiveness. I don't think I've been shot down by a Marksman more that once or twice, but Gepards and Sidams can shoot me down even in the most improbable situations as I continue to maneuver.

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2 hours ago, RealMajorHavok said:

I do see significant differences in the SPAA effectiveness. I don't think I've been shot down by a Marksman more that once or twice, but Gepards and Sidams can shoot me down even in the most improbable situations as I continue to maneuver.

i dont know about marksman but there sould be only a fiew differences between that and gepard becouse both have the same gun, also gepard is more common to see

gepard is pretty good and i killed many (not that much) aircrafts at a relative long distance but i think it was more luck than vehicle being OP

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3 hours ago, RealMajorHavok said:

Sorry, what is the reason? I do not see a reason mentioned.

The Sidam uses a optical tracker, that doesnt have a vertical offset that radar trackers have when targeting a low flying aircraft.

 

The only reason why you might think that the Gepard is better, is that there are tons of them spaming their guns at you and at some point even the worst gunner gets a lucky hit.

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3 hours ago, ponnes said:

The Sidam uses a optical tracker, that doesnt have a vertical offset that radar trackers have when targeting a low flying aircraft.

...you mean the radar bug?

Edited by C0lander
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21 minutes ago, ponnes said:

Its not a bug. Im talking about the ground echo.

What is radar ground echo and why does it "pull" the track down?

Edited by C0lander
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Yeah, but there's also a thing called filters which measure phase shift and signal strength return and cut the "ghosts" out.

Radar filters "ghosts" using a mechanic called dwelling time on track, which determines the azimuth of the strongest signal return thus cutting the parasitic returns out.

Also, in centimeter radars (Xband) "ghosts" are significantly weaker than in longer waved radars like VHF or lower, so this **** in game is a bug.

The "feature" where the track vanishes into the ground doesn't exist.

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1 minute ago, C0lander said:

Yeah, but there's also a thing called filters which measure phase shift and signal strength return, cut the "ghosts" out.

Radar filters "ghosts" using a mechanic called dwelling time, which determines the azimuth of the strongest signal thus cutting the parasitic returns out.

Also, in centimeter radars (Xband) "ghosts" are significantly weaker than in longer waved radars like VHF or lower, so this **** in game is a bug.

The "feature" where the track vanishes into the ground doesn't exist.

Im not an expert, so I cant really commend on that.

But I guess another  problem is that we have alot of different radars in the game, newer and older ones, but as far as I know they are all modelled the same way, when it comes to tracking characteristics.

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This is really a non issue...probably there are some radars that suffer from this issue, but those aren't of military tracking grade, like the ones that SPAAs sport ingame.

From the gameplay point, this should be unified, because even if someone sometimes issued a military grade certificate to such a radar, that really shouldn't be modeled for obvious reasons.

Kinda like Gepard and FlaRakPz that don't have NVGs and yet they get night games, so you can't see where you're driving, which is plain stupid. I mean, NVGs are a $50k a pop, so we can assume that the field commander who tasked such multimillion dollar vehicles with night ops. would also provide for the means of fighting in the night conditions.

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17 minutes ago, C0lander said:

This is really a non issue...probably there are some radars that suffer from this issue, but those aren't of military tracking grade, like the ones that SPAAs sport ingame.

From the gameplay point, this should be unified, because even if someone sometimes issued a military grade certificate to such a radar, that really shouldn't be modeled for obvious reasons.

Kinda like Gepard and FlaRakPz that don't have NVGs and yet they get night games, so you can't see where you're driving, which is plain stupid. I mean, NVGs are a $50k a pop, so we can assume that the field commander who tasked such multimillion dollar vehicles with night ops. would also provide for the means of fighting in the night conditions.

Dont overestimade the competence of militaries when it comes to fielding any kind of weaponsystems, there is so much modern weaponsystems out there that doesnt work and countries still spend multiple millions on them.

Back to the topic: I think that early radar systems like the M163 or  obviously the M247 dont have the most effective radars.

I think  modelling every radar is an extremly difficult task, becasue it requires to model the radar cross section of every plane and considering the terrain aswell, with all its different materials and angles, and I think gaijin didnt find a solution yet to implement it into the game properly.

(I guess the current state of radars in the game represents, the best that they could program atm)

 

Also planes fly in warthunder much closer to the ground, maneuver more than they would irl. In WT SPAA have to fight planes frequently in conditions, that would not accure irl.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, ponnes said:

Dont overestimade the competence of militaries when it comes to fielding any kind of weaponsystems, there is so much modern weaponsystems out there that doesnt work and countries still spend multiple millions on them.

Back to the topic: I think that early radar systems like the M163 or  obviously the M247 dont have the most effective radars.

I think  modelling every radar is an extremly difficult task, becasue it requires to model the radar cross section of every plane and considering the terrain aswell, with all its different materials and angles, and I think gaijin didnt find a solution yet to implement it into the game properly.

(I guess the current state of radars in the game represents, the best that they could program atm)

 

Also planes fly in warthunder much closer to the ground, maneuver more than they would irl. In WT SPAA have to fight planes frequently in conditions, that would not accure irl.

 

 

This is the very reason the ADATS Optic targeting is treated like it was radar. Trees and rocks interfere with locks just like radar which it shouldn't as "if you see it, will lock it".  DEVs just too lazy to model ground units optic system like they do the air units that use optic systems (heli).

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8 minutes ago, barial said:

This is the very reason the ADATS Optic targeting is treated like it was radar. Trees and rocks interfere with locks just like radar which it shouldn't as "if you see it, will lock it".  DEVs just too lazy to model ground units optic system like they do the air units that use optic systems (heli).

I just tested the ADATS and it works vs low flying planes behind the tree line just fine.

 

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16 minutes ago, ponnes said:

I just tested the ADATS and it works vs low flying planes behind the tree line just fine.

 

I have a few hundred battles in the ADATS. Much more then a test. As I said, it behaves like it was radar not optical targeting system. Even radar sometimes allows low targets. Aiming between large rocks providing cover, if you can see the target in your sniper view, you should be able to lock it up. Even ground targets, providing contrast from the back ground should be able to lock up using optical system. 

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2 hours ago, ponnes said:

I think  modelling every radar is an extremly difficult task, becasue it requires to model the radar cross section of every plane and considering the terrain aswell, with all its different materials and angles, and I think gaijin didnt find a solution yet to implement it into the game properly.

Look, the thing is simple...measuring azimuth (and elevation) using dweling mechanics dates from the first tacking radars back in the '60.

I don't think that there was a tracking radar without those kinda inbuilt filters, ever produced.

If it was, you'd need some kinda documantation for that, since that would be a big exception, not the rule.

 

GJ has a history of radar modeling problems already, when they made SPAAs' tracking radars Doppler, while in reality, virtually each and every one is pulse and the tracking radar shouldn't lose its tracks when the target beamrides it, like it does in WT.

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