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Simplified profit/earning system in EC missions


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Thank you for all your feedback! Your suggestions and ideas were passed to the development team. They will continue to work on it and when ready, we will again share any news with you.

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1 minute ago, Mahd1378 said:

EC rewards are unfair comparing to other modes. If peoples play 1 hour in EC they get much much more reward than same 1 hour in other modes. In my opinion reward should not motivate peoples to choose their modes so I think you should make all reward equal regardless of mode.

I kinda get where you're coming from, but that would swing around to something like AB being the best money maker due to the, on average, lower repair costs (since you're expected to die a lot in AB). The present system is very risk/reward dependant (leaning too far into risk IMO) and so a blanket reward system would only add an extra layer of problems without first addressing repair costs and BR decompression.

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2 minutes ago, Mahd1378 said:

EC rewards are unfair comparing to other modes. If peoples play 1 hour in EC they get much much more reward than same 1 hour in other modes. In my opinion reward should not motivate peoples to choose their modes so I think you should make all reward equal regardless of mode.

 

You sure about this? Yes, if you fly bombing run after bombing run, but if you play as fighter or as attacker concentrating on ground targets you will earn much more while playing Air RB during the same period of time

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13 minutes ago, creature259 said:

So you want to reward air kills less?

Look at this 3 hours of me killing everyone by my self....and this is what i get?

Kill reward to low! 

Common 65 kills barely 100K???

 

 

kills.jpg

I was waiting for you to post this.

 

1 hour ago, Ouiche said:

To solve this issue, we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission

Not knowing the details on what is happening. It sounds like a big xxxx to the players who are actually engaged throughout the entire game, much like old mate Creature ^^^. This just sounds like a hamfisted approach to a glaring issue instead of actually communicating with the playerbase and formulating a solution.

 

Assign a developer to work with the different simulator communities to come up with a solution that works well, is fun, and fixes many exploits. The 'War Thunder Simulator Initiative' would be a great place to start, there are already several Technical Moderators there now working with the community for bug testing. Hell hire me, i'll learn how to do it and be active with the community so you dont have to.

 

You have a diminishing population of players who simply cannot play Sim/EC anymore because they cannot break even actively playing. You have an influx of people who are zombers. You have power creeped maps and scenarios. YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING THAT ACTIVELY INVOLVES THE COMMUNITY TO RECTIFY THESE ISSUES. Not pretending you are by posting 'please discuss' then never actually implementing any changes. Because if you did, most of these issues would have been rectified months, if not years ago.

 

Work with the community on this.

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Just now, TinyTinkerTank said:

Oh he was purely talking about turrets? Don't attack from right behind the plane. Hitting a fighter coming from the side / above / below is a lot harder while hitting a bomber from such angles is not that much more difficult, unless you can barely catch up.

I was talking not just about the turrets but also the skill difference between AB/RB and SB and how much less you earn in SB if you actually play and not exploit.

As for this great advice on how to attack turreted aircraft, it would be relevant if those turrets weren't gyro stabilized to such an extent that even if you take the bombers wing off and it goes into a spin it can still just point the mouse at you and shoot you down. No other "sim" does it this way and this "git gud" nonsense has no place here, there are hundreds of excellent pilots here who know what they are doing, they attack bombers from high angles and high speeds just to get sniped before they can get into shooting range! This is one of the reasons for RB refugees and the exploiting, they know very well that not only can they earn big rewards in SB from bombing, but also relatively safely since their mouse controlled turrets will get them easy money. I've seen so many games where the player with the most kills in the game is bomber, I mean this is an absolute joke. 

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hey we shall calm down and think about why these dishonest player did that.

didn't they suffer from the extremely high RP of helicopter tree?

i saw my classmate suffered sooo much when he fly a poor AH1G against these missile carriers even KA50 with deadly VT missile, then he was AFK so long that i didnt see him online for almost 1 year.

i think we should not only face the "dishonest player" and their "dishonest actions" but shall also face what forced them.

I recommend WT shall reduce the RP of heli tree, we play game for fun, not for suffer. if players could grind faster to what they love , they dont need to cheat : (

 

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I see three ways to mitigate the abusers:

 

1.  Exponentially deadlier AA the closer you get to a base, near instant lethality at 700m, which should give base bombers a chance.

2.  Remove all rewards for killing aircraft on an airfield.

3.  Go after the reports harder.

 

The first two could help mitigate spawn camping as well.

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First of all, really glad to finally hear "touching the EC" from the team. Thanks for taking interest to almost-dead game mode.

 

Most utmost things to be changed is restriction of "Player made match" which is origin of "SB farming", I understood dev team don't like to diminish ridding of already made content, but as this Player made match brings more worse than better things to Air SB mode, it's time have to change it. 

 

My proposals about EC including PMM problem are like this:

 

1. Restrict the matching counterpart - Since PMM is unrestricted pool of team part, "Uncombatable match" (e.g: All nation vs france) can be set up by some 'dishonest players' so, restricting the match via historical lineup to like "Axis vs Allies" "US vs JPN" "Nato vs Pact" we can prevent one side match with intention.

2. Restrict the number of Player made matchs by Tiers - If option 1 is hard to imply, we can restrict the number of matchs by tiers. Most "Farming matchup"s are set up in T6~T7 for fast farming and most efficiency, so we can find most of Player made match for farming SLs are condensed to T6(which average more than dozens) That is, if we restrict number of match, we can automatically restrict farming match and give "Farming players" less interest. and we can give less stress to SB EC server load. Whenever we see tons of garbage player match list we can easily conclude EC server should be super loaded. We NEED to give less stress to EC server.

3. Expand EC match from 32 players to 64, remove team balance option (a.k.a. game join restriction) - EC is basically long term game mode which players are hard to fully play from start to end. And also, EC has unlimited respawn and contents are spawns in every corner of battlefield, 32 players in total feels 'concentrated' compared ordinary Random match. Furthermore, due to restriction of joining session based on player number in each side actually restricts player's choice to join proper match. So, by expanding 64 player match and release restriction of joining, EC can give to players more freedom about joining session and most important, more FUN!

4. Expand Battle area of EC - Related to proposal 3, EC maps should be wider than this. Since current EC shares Random match's one which is aim for end the content within one hour, EC can't stand its own feature, and causes some problems - like, Almost half of map area is covered by Airfield of both side(12 total), It's hard to engage long term combat and tactical play. Also, too much airfields in small battlefield, also restricts variety of in-game mission contents, and in high Tier EC, it allows Spawn camping too easily. Maybe slow, low tier EC with current battle area is suitable, more than T4 to T7, espically T6 and T7(Jet EC) desperately need of Much wider Battle area. 

5.  Combining Helicopters to T6 T7 EC - We all agree about Heli EC is most dead game mode in the game. Already in T6 T7 EC, there's Ai controled Helis are spawned which means Players can also play Helis if it's allowed. By combining T6 T7 EC and Heli EC, We can make better vary of EC content as "attacker role" in high tier. Also, Helis can be properly threaten by Top tier jets can solve current Heli EC's balance problem.

6. More Ground targets for attacker, bomber players - Yes, More variation of ground target(e.g: Trains, Factories, Warehouses) can bring more activity to EC. And by making importance of ground attacking or tactical bombing in EC not just Airfield bombing, We can guiding EC bomber players to play more actively. 

7. Proper length of Airfield in T6 T7 EC - Since current Moduled Airfield is designed to fit for Prop aircrafts, Jet aircrafts, especially Supersonic Jet aircrafts are hard to T/O or Landing in EC. Maybe adding more preset to Moduled Airfield for those jet aircraft would be thankful. 

8. Remove the double penalty - Current EC based on B.R system, each tier of EC have from unlimited respawnable reserve aircraft to most advanced BR aircraft requires Spawn point. But problem is, Since those high SP aircrafts also have time penalty when it's loss, when battle goes outrageous, everyone keeps fly reserve aircraft because cool down time even someone who got enough Spawn point. And this is severe restriction of EC content itself and no advantage or proper reward to combat hardened players. So, IF EC have based B.R and Spawn Point mechanism, respawn cooldown time need to be gone. Or, maybe by giving more Spawn point, short down the cooldown time would be good option.

9. Maybe, Maybe we can make Air-Ground, Air-Naval Combined EC. Yes it's every SB player's Dream.

10. If all of this is hard to imply, we have a single simple solution. Give up current B.R based EC and brings Historical lineup EC instead. There will no Tier, No user made part, but only pre-made historical line up exists like Ground SB. Well this is another good, Great option.

 

Current EC is Totally ruined and untouched for years until today, You Team guys open this post at last. 

Please remember  Air SB EC is also one of game mode and players are love this mode, seeking more improvement of this mode as like as other game mode players. 

 

Hope those feedback helps improve the EC.

 

Again, Thanks for give interest to EC again, at last. 

Edited by DeltaSBW
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3 minutes ago, DeltaSBW said:

First of all, really glad to finally hear "touching the EC" from the team. Thanks for taking interest to almost-dead game mode.

 

Most utmost things to be changed is restriction of "Player made match" which is origin of "SB farming", I understood dev team don't like to diminish ridding of already made content, but as this Player made match brings more worse than better things to Air SB mode, it's time have to change it. 

 

My proposals about EC including PMM problem are like this:

 

1. Restrict the matching counterpart - Since PMM is unrestricted pool of team part, "Uncombatable match" (e.g: All nation vs france) can be set up by some 'dishonest players'

so, restricting the match via historical lineup to like "Axis vs Allies" "US vs JPN" "Nato vs Pact" we can prevent one side match with intention.

2. Restrict the number of Player made matchs by Tiers - If option 1 is hard to imply, we can restrict the number of matchs by tiers. Most "Farming matchup"s are set up in T6~T7 for fast farming and most efficiency, so we can find most of Player made match for farming SLs are condensed to T6(which average more than dozens) That is, if we restrict number of match, we can automatically restrict farming match and give "Farming players" less interest. and we can give less stress to SB EC server load. Whenever we see tons of garbage player match list we can easily conclude EC server should be super loaded. We NEED to give less stress to EC server.

3. Expand EC match from 32 players to 64, remove team balance option (a.k.a. game join restriction) - EC is basically long term game mode which players are hard to fully play from start to end. And also, EC has unlimited respawn and contents are spawns in every corner of battlefield, 32 players in total feels 'concentrated' compared ordinary Random match. Furthermore, due to restriction of joining session based on player number in each side actually restricts player's choice to join proper match. So, by expanding 64 player match and release restriction of joining, EC can give to players more freedom about joining session and most important, more FUN!

4. Expand Battle area of EC - Related to proposal 3, EC maps should be wider than this. Since current EC shares Random match's one which is aim for end the content within one hour, EC can't stand its own feature, and causes some problems - like, Almost half of map area is covered by Airfield of both side(12 total), It's hard to engage long term combat and tactical play. Also, too much airfields in small battlefield, also restricts variety of in-game mission contents, and in high Tier EC, it allows Spawn camping too easily. Maybe slow, low tier EC with current battle area is suitable, more than T4 to T7, espically T6 and T7(Jet EC) desperately need of Much wider Battle area. 

5.  Combining Helicopters to T6 T7 EC - We all agree about Heli EC is most dead game mode in the game. Already in T6 T7 EC, there's Ai controled Helis are spawned which means Players can also play Helis if it's allowed. By combining T6 T7 EC and Heli EC, We can make better vary of EC content as "attacker role" in high tier. Also, Helis can be properly threaten by Top tier jets can solve current Heli EC's balance problem.

6. More Ground targets for attacker, bomber players - Yes, More variation of ground target(e.g: Trains, Factories, Warehouses) can bring more activity to EC. And by making importance of ground attacking or tactical bombing in EC not just Airfield bombing, We can guiding EC bomber players to play more actively. 

7. Proper length of Airfield in T6 T7 EC - Since current Moduled Airfield is designed to fit for Prop aircrafts, Jet aircrafts, especially Supersonic Jet aircrafts are hard to T/O or Landing in EC. Maybe adding more preset to Moduled Airfield for those jet aircraft would be thankful. 

8. Remove the double penalty - Current EC based on B.R system, each tier of EC have from unlimited respawnable reserve aircraft to most advanced BR aircraft requires Spawn point. But problem is, Since those high SP aircrafts also have time penalty when it's loss, when battle goes outrageous, everyone keeps fly reserve aircraft because cool down time even someone who got enough Spawn point. And this is severe restriction of EC content itself and no advantage or proper reward to combat hardened players. So, IF EC have based B.R and Spawn Point mechanism, respawn cooldown time need to be gone. Or, maybe by giving more Spawn point, short down the cooldown time would be good option.

9. Maybe, Maybe we can make Air-Ground, Air-Naval Combined EC. Yes it's every SB player's Dream.

 

Current EC is Totally ruined and untouched for years until today, You Team guys open this post at last. 

Please remember  Air SB EC is also one of game mode and players are love this mode, seeking more improvement of this mode as like as other game mode players. 

 

Hope those feedback helps improve the EC.

 

Again, Thanks for give interest to EC again, at last. 

 

You made my day!

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1 hour ago, Ouiche said:

The average level of reward over time in switching to the new system would remain unchanged and will correspond to reward received by players in other game modes.

 

This is quite silly to average, considering SB is 1000x times harder. It should reward more.

 

 

46 minutes ago, creature259 said:

So you want to reward air kills less?

Look at this 3 hours of me killing everyone by my self....and this is what i get?

Kill reward to low! 

Common 65 kills barely 100K???

Edit: forgot to mention if i died 10 times in a 15K  plane i would spend 150K

Lucky i died 0  .......    but just saying!

 

 

kills.jpg

 

haha but u join these 'rigged' room like OP talk about

 

rKw9hsN.png

 

 

Edited by Daffan
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Some ideas:

 

- Limit amount of bombers at any one time  allowed in a EC match (promoting balance)

- Remove 'player created rooms' leave that for custom battles

- Remove J out unless on the ground for the reason of changing aircraft

- Stop bot spawn & end the match if enemy team leaves or increase the drive toward the ticket bleed and match end  if low players on loosing team

- Lock players into their chosen EC tier until the match is complete ( to discourage & remove ability to start or match jump and join another)

 

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12 minutes ago, Defbond said:

I was talking not just about the turrets but also the skill difference between AB/RB and SB and how much less you earn in SB if you actually play and not exploit.

As for this great advice on how to attack turreted aircraft, it would be relevant if those turrets weren't gyro stabilized to such an extent that even if you take the bombers wing off and it goes into a spin it can still just point the mouse at you and shoot you down. No other "sim" does it this way and this "git gud" nonsense has no place here, there are hundreds of excellent pilots here who know what they are doing, they attack bombers from high angles and high speeds just to get sniped before they can get into shooting range! This is one of the reasons for RB refugees and the exploiting, they know very well that not only can they earn big rewards in SB from bombing, but also relatively safely since their mouse controlled turrets will get them easy money. I've seen so many games where the player with the most kills in the game is bomber, I mean this is an absolute joke. 

 

The best solution for turrets in SB (and as an option in RB/AB) would be to add first-person gunner view to all gunner positions, and let us cycle through each of them. The rest of the gunners would try to aim for wherever we're aiming the "main" turret, at a given convergence (and in RB/AB, if you lock a target they would automatically adjust convergence accordingly).

Edited by [email protected]
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I hope this isn't the start of phasing out Sim and that Gaijin would be very transparent with us if they were considering that. 

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I have a good idea: gaijin can consider setting up a lock function for players' self built rooms. Players have to spend 100-500 golden eagles to create rooms every time they create rooms, so as to speed up the consumption of golden eagles, and keep the original income unchanged. In this way, gaijin can get more income without completely offending players. After all, many players are not fighter based, They just want to have a quiet environment. It's not good news for bombers to leave EC mission. At least for Fighter players, there are fewer

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6 minutes ago, Skain79 said:

Lock players into their chosen EC tier until the match is complete ( to discourage & remove ability to start or match jump and join another)

This sucks because rewards are based on winning... There is zero reason to play a match that has 60% or more chance of loss... U literally lose 20000% reward bonus

 

you also cant see tickets before joining

Edited by Daffan
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15 minutes ago, LagDriver said:

嘿,我们会冷静下来,想想为什么这些不诚实的玩家这么做了。

他们不是因为直升机树的RP很高而受苦吗?

我看到我的同班同学用可怜的AH1G攻击致命的VT导弹甚至是致命的VT导弹对付这些导弹航母,甚至是KA50时,遭受了太多的痛苦,然后他一直处于AFK状态,以至于我近一年都没有看到他在线。

我认为我们不仅应该面对“不诚实的球员”及其“不诚实的行为”,还应该面对迫使他们面对的压力。

我建议WT降低直升机树的RP,我们玩游戏是为了娱乐,而不是为了受苦。 如果玩家可以更快地磨练自己喜欢的东西,他们不需要作弊 :(

 

that's too much. the first thing that should be changed is helicopter mode, ka50 Black Shark vs ah-1g Cobra. that's a joke

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1 hour ago, Ouiche said:

Fighters_855f9ae8fa9945e9bf3125116182481

 

EC missions (all of them) differ from other game modes because of their duration (session time), respawns and game room (lobby) mechanics. 

The extended duration of the mission and low concentration of gameplay actions results in a large reward for each individual action. The system of multiple respawns is implemented through a ‘cost’ for each fly out and not vehicle loss. Both of these points make the economy system noticeably more difficult to set up and understand for players - a player when respawning in a vehicle initially has a shortage of game currency and then has to do without reward for a lengthy period in search of a suitable target.

At the same time, game room/lobby mechanics can be used by dishonest players to create ‘rigged’ battles where they can repeatedly destroy the same cooperating enemy and as the actual destruction of that enemy is a fairly infrequent event in EC, the reward for it is set high.

To solve this issue, we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission (not taking into account time on the airfield - a more detailed description will be published separately) instead of a reward for each individual action. However, the bonus reward for winning a mission and the half reward for returning to an airfield would remain unchanged. The average level of reward over time in switching to the new system would remain unchanged and will correspond to reward received by players in other game modes.

These proposed changes are intended to help honest players to choose mission objectives based on personal interest rather than possible profit. It should negate the opportunity for dishonest players to use this game mode for their own selfish purposes.

Don't hesitate to leave your feedback!

 

The main issue has always been bombers in SB. It's not fighters abusing EC. Even before EC it was bombers abusing SB. The Abuse isn't a new thing that came with EC, we had abusers before, actually SB (or FRB) has been abused by bombers since it's inception.

 

Changing rewards and mission design will always just be fighting symptoms not the desease.

 

42 minutes ago, GiganticWeeaboo said:

I dont like this idea. 
Bomber rewards should be reduced
Alt account farmers should be manually reviewed and game banned when reported
and air to air kills should be more rewarding. 
this would fix so much of what is wrong with EC right now. 
Instead of '' simplifying '' rewards

 

Indeed, not only bomber rewards are an issue the bomber gameplay itself is completely broken and abusable.

 

34 minutes ago, AdelWolf said:

 

 

First of all removal of the Player Created Rooms will have the greatest impact on abusers. People abuse rooms to ensure victory for total result. They join empty maps and bomb targets or kills AI's in peace without interruption. Also allowing players to create a room with the nation they want lets them to make match ups such as: France vs All. Where it becomes impossible for the French team to ensure victory due to lack of players. If this was prevented the competition will be the beneficial for the game play, for loyal players and for the economic system. 

 

 

 

heard this song and dance before. Back then it was operation mozdok that was used for bomber abuse. Then Gaijin took the Map out of the EC selection but it didn't stop the abuse and neither will deleting player created rooms. All it will achieve is that players won't find battles for the nations they want to play and reduce playernumbers (and i mean actual players not abusers)... just look at SB GF when the even system was introduced, now you can't play the tanks you want to play and people left.

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3 minutes ago, creature259 said:

These are the games you dont get any kills.....no opponents.
makes no sence?

 

If you mean the player created truce rooms - they are all there to farm in their bombers easily enormous amounts of XPs...

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As someone who basically only plays air sim battle enduring confrontation:

Your solution is fine for EC1 and 2; mixed for EC3, 4, and 5; and just plain awful for EC6 and 7.

High tier EC is pretty broken, and this would just break it more. You're suffering from a "bullet hole misconception" when it comes to yall seeing players killed by the same person over and over. The reason why that happens is because it's pretty common for a room to fill up with 5 or 6 people on one side, and 1 or 2 on the other. So those 1 or 2 people get shot down over and over by the same people over a period of 1+ hours.

The reason why this happens is because no sim player is willing to join the match when they see those kinds of odds. They know there is no chance of winning, and the winning side is too full to join.

So what creates these conditions and how do you fix them? By scoring the game with tickets/points, you create this scenario. Imagine walking by a row of basketball courts with pickup games that have money on the line, and you can tell how each team is doing based on score and player count. There is almost zero incentive to join a team you know is going to lose.

How to fix this? Take the emphasis away from team points/tickets and make it about moving the front line and capturing and holding key areas. Make the match less like a basketball game and more like GO. Give players the chance to vote on which/where/what objectives happen next. Make it so a losing team can come back and win if they use the right tactics and strategy and work together. If there are zero players on the other team, the match should immediately end.

And to touch on how high tier EC (6 and 7) is broken: I can, as a USA player, score points ridiculously quickly by bombing objectives. No other nation comes close. I'm moving 2 to 3 times faster on a map made for prop planes, completing objectives made for prop planes, while also being scored like a prop plane. I can also reach and engage an enemy (if he's not already camping my airfield) very very quickly and kill him very quickly. The whole EC game mode (as it is now) just falls apart at these tiers.

How to fix that? I'm not sure, but the maps need to be muuuuuuuuuuuch larger. Bombing targets on the ground need to be tougher and actually fight back. The AAA at bombing targets doesn't actually fire in any EC. I'm not sure what the point of them is other than an easy way to farm points. SAMs are whats required, and smarter AAA gunners. AI fighters need to be able to shoot missiles.

I could go on, but this post is long enough as it is.

Edited by AstroHelo
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Ok hear me out get rid of the mouse aim gunner view on any third person vehicle(limit it to first person on stuka Breda 88 etc) as it removes the blindspot which allowed fighters to be able to surprise bombers irl. And close lobbies of they get below say 3 players on a team. Bomber pilots should be allowed to bomb if they want but make the exploits harder. I could see this new system working if the rewards were high enough but ik gaijin and they won't be. 

 

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I'm glad Gaijin finally remembered that there is a game mode called SB EC. But I don't agree with this strange change at all, and it will only destroy this mode like all the others before it.

 

I have some suggestions based on the current game mode;

 

1, Enlarged the map and reduced the number of airfields to 3, 1 major airfield and 2 frontier airfields. There should be enough anti-aircraft firepower near major airfields and even SAM. The purpose of these air defense weapons is to ensure the safety of the airport and the climbing area around the airport, and no player can easily launch an attack here. The frontline airport should have sufficient short-range air defense firepower, and these air defense weapons must be able to effectively intercept aircraft strafing the runway or conducting low-altitude bombing. 

2, The airport will no longer be the target of bombers. The target of the bomber should be the base scattered on the map. The base should be located behind the map, and the specific location should not be displayed on the map. Need to search after bombers enter the area. The base should have a certain degree of anti-aircraft firepower, and these anti-aircraft firepower should force players to carry out mid-to-high altitude bombing, or to penetrate defenses at ultra-low altitudes.

3, Some short-range air defense weapons in a mobile state should be placed on the map. These weapons can pose a sufficient threat to targets for low-altitude breakthroughs.

4, The player’s location is not display on the map (T-4-1 and T-4-2, etc. only display the square where they are located, not the specific location), and aircraft without a navigation system must use landmarks to determine their exact location. An aircraft with a navigation system can see its position through the onboard display.

5, Increase the upper limit of the number of players in the room to 32VS32, and cancel the number balance system.

6, Cancel the function of players to create rooms, players will only be able to choose to join the rooms created by the system.

Edited by SaratogaCV60
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