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Simplified profit/earning system in EC missions


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Thank you for all your feedback! Your suggestions and ideas were passed to the development team. They will continue to work on it and when ready, we will again share any news with you.

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54 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

Don't hesitate to leave your feedback!

 

This was a can of worms that needed to be opened. That's my feedback.

 

(tl;dr: Restrict certain weapon loadouts with spawn points/timers, basically any smart/guided missile)

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So you want to reward air kills less?

Look at this 3 hours of me killing everyone by my self....and this is what i get?

Kill reward to low! 

Common 65 kills barely 100K???

Edit: forgot to mention if i died 10 times in a 15K  plane i would spend 150K

Lucky i died 0  .......    but just saying!

 

 

kills.jpg

Edited by creature259
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34 minutes ago, Joram said:

As it stands, Naval EC, at least, isn't worth the time investment. You spend between one and three hours in a match, contribut to your team, and come out of it with, on average, about the same rewards as you get for two RB matches, at best. As those two matches will take, at most, around one hour, I don't find the benefits of EC's better game-mode to outweigh this poor economy.

 

Same goes for Naval RB at Tiers IV-V. Most battles last until the timer runs out at 35 minutes, and you get RP and SL rewards similar to that of a Ground RB 10 minute battle (10k RP and 50-60 SL with Premium account in a good match with victory).

 

I hope this system gives more proportional rewards to time, and that a similar mechanic is added for Naval RB.

 

Right now, Naval is highly unrewarding for the time spent on each battle.

Edited by SPANISH_AVENGER
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6 minutes ago, TinyTinkerTank said:

Dude chill out and git gut. Mouse players should also be welcome in this mode. This mode should not only be for those with some crazy 1500€ HOTAS setup. One can play with a mouse pretty fine with enough training, including dogfights.

He's not saying that someone with mouse joystick should not play this game, he's saying that bombers shouldn't have mouse aim

Edited by AngelPiret
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47 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

However, the bonus reward for winning a mission and the half reward for returning to an airfield would remain unchanged.

In my opinion, that is unsatisfactory :

- One of the reasons for the economic problems of EC stems from players being unable to make a profit unless they win, meaning they will actually abandon a losing side much too quickly (maybe even after only one fly out). This causes teams to become more imbalanced, and is responsible for absurdly high repair costs since, once the opposing players are gone, there isn't much danger of getting shot down.


- To alleviate this, "mission accomplished" rewards should be reduced while overall rewards are increased. Players should still be recompensed for winning, but not rely on the victory for the economy to make any sense. 
IMO, a satisfactory point would be a 25 to 35% increase in earnings of both SL and RP as part of the "mission accomplished reward", with the overall "projected earnings" for a victory remaining unchanged.
 

 

As for the "safe return" bonus, I think it should also be toned down a bit with rewards with it again remaining unchanged.
"Safe return" should increase rewards by at most 50% (currently 100%), and thus be responsible for 33% rather than 50% of a sortie's earnings.

Otherwise you can run the "risk" of players prefering to deny confrontation in a PvP game simply to ensure more earnings, which while realistic isn't the highest level of fun for the opposition.

 

 

On top of that, as others have said, it is quite necessary to disable the ability for one country to be present on both sides of an EC room.

As an addendum, I would generally consider three countries per side to be a reasonable maximum - limiting the chance of copy paste facing each other, but also of one player-made room stacking all nations versus a less-powerful (or popular) one.

 

 

PS. It would be nice if SWEDEN was removed from "historical EC games" it has no business in (Vietnam and Afghanistan among others).

On the other hand, if more "historical" or "alternate-history" EC games could be created, it would be much appreciated.

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3 minutes ago, creature259 said:

So you want to reward air kills less?

Look at this 3 hours of me killing everyone by my self....and this is what i get?

Kill reward to low! 

Common 65 kills barely 100K???

 

 

kills.jpg

Yep, relatively low kill rewards doesn't help the EC SB, totally not proportional at all. Gaijin should start with reviewing this aspect of the reward system.

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14 minutes ago, AlexKrost said:

 

Easy to do, if you didn't pay for the Helicopter (ex. Ka-52). But considering the likes of me shelved a cold $50 for the Ka-50, I'd feel like my money would be stolen if they were to remove the effective part of the helicopter outright.

 

Spawn Points/Timers on Smart Weapons (Vikhrs, PARS, Hellfires and general AAMs) is the best way to go in my opinion on allowing lower-tier helis to have a more plausible fight with higher-tier vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I am not a defender of the Ka-50, but I do definitely see its...Advantages.

 

I have listed 2 more options. Also the only smart weapon that break the gameplay is Vikhr, Pars doesn't have a proxy fuse and easy to dodge by a small maneuver, hellfires don't work even on ground battles and everybody has flares so AAMs aren't effective that much. 

 

 

 

I'm OK with a spawn point system that requires 6 kills / that much ground kills to use Vikhr at EC. As you get no less than 5 kills per spawn, it won't stop kash-50 users from spamming vikhrs on others. 

Edited by efetenekeci
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Just now, FouManchou said:

One of the reasons for the economic problems of EC stems from players being unable to make a profit unless they win, meaning they will actually abandon a losing side much too quickly

 

This also applies to Naval and Ground RBs. If you die and lose, you won't earn any profit and may even lose SL depending on the lineup. So you have wasted time and SL just for being on the losing side.

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2 minutes ago, efetenekeci said:

 

I have listed 2 more options. Also the only smart weapon that break the gameplay is Vikhr, Pars doesn't have a proxy fuse and easy to dodge by a small maneuver, hellfires don't work even on ground battles and everybody has flares so AAMs aren't effective that much. 

 

 

 

I'm OK with a spawn point system that requires 6 kills / that much ground kills to use Vikhr at EC. As you get no less than 5 kills per spawn, it won't stop kash-50 users from spamming vikhrs on others. 

 

Helicopter EC is a lost cause. Will never change

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1 minute ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

This also applies to Naval and Ground RBs. If you die and lose, you won't earn any profit and may even lose SL depending on the lineup. So you have wasted time and SL just for being on the losing side.

Aye, greatly agree on that. Fundamentally I hold that the core of the problem rests on Gaijin in this scenario. If people are having to abuse what systems are in place just to keep playing the game, surely something about the core experience needs to be changed. The game's obscenely unsustainable in the higher tiers with repair costs and weapon costs that anything short of victory is a either net loss on minimal profit. This is an issue that's plagued the game for years now as I remember having these discussions back in 2016.

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I would say reduce the SL costs for spawn. Some vehicles have ridiculous costs, bombers included. Include more "mission tasks", usually they are rare on such big maps and may become camp points for "unfair players". Allow all classes - interceptors, torpedo bombers, dive bombers, heavy fighters, doghfighters etc. to have tasks suitable for them to do something in EC modes. And most importantly.... In helicopter EC we need same BR decompression as in Air EC. Plus, Vikr missiles have a huge advantage by being able to snipe at long distance, with no real counter in game (under 2 km Hellfires and PARS-3LR can't aim at target properly, over 5km they miss hitting target).

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The abuse mentioned in the original post is of minor importance and does not justify the afore mentioned changes in reward system.
Players killing low BR planes on alt accounts or friendly accounts can be solved in a much easier way. Dealing with the reports of those players and banning them from SB will handle this easily.

A second way is not to reward kills of planes on which are on the ground, in that case there will be no incentive anymore to kill planes on alt/friendly accounts on the runway. Also, this way the abusive stafing gameplay can be eliminated too. 
The more abusive gameplay, zombing is a much bigger problem. Now it's hardly possible to win an EC match when there are even a limited amount of bombers on the other team. A reduction of the impact of bombing on the tickets and points would be more beneficial. Bombing still needs to be rewarded, it's part of the game, but the impact on the game outcome, and thus total rewards, should be more balanced.

 

Especially when flying top tier planes, average SB players cannot make a profit anymore due to the high spawn cost/reward ratio. Balancing rewards is a logical thing to do, even without looking at abusive gameplay
I second Defbonds suggestion to let SB players participate in warbonds and other events. This is another way to reward SB players which they lack now.

 

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3 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Aye, greatly agree on that. Fundamentally I hold that the core of the problem rests on Gaijin in this scenario. If people are having to abuse what systems are in place just to keep playing the game, surely something about the core experience needs to be changed. The game's obscenely unsustainable in the higher tiers with repair costs and weapon costs that anything short of victory is a either net loss on minimal profit. This is an issue that's plagued the game for years now as I remember having these discussions back in 2016.

 

Typical problem of a lot of F2P games - the higher you get, the more vehicles you have ground out and want to use them, the more you will be punished by the reward system. In the end High Tier is unplayable, just for Super Aces and One Death Leavers makes sense anymore to play High Tier at all

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This is the death of fighters in Sim EC.

 

I do not believe this is the right direction. 

Some context: I exclusively fly Sim EC, and I almost exclusively fly fighters. I focus on interdicting bombers/protecting our airfields, and capturing objectives. These are all relevant tasks to the overall victory. 

 

The proposed simplification of the economy would directly impact me and others like me. 
On average, I end a good match with between 15 and 25 air kills. @ Ouiche are you saying that I should not receive high rewards for my actions?

 

You are punishing fighter aircraft this way - not just fighter aircraft, but specifically great players who are much much more skilled than the average player. 

I am vehemently against these changes, my proposal for an alternative is to invest some dollars into an actual player reporting system from this century. 

 

Edited by Stona
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8 minutes ago, AngelPiret said:

He's not saying that someone with mouse joystick should not play this game, he's saying that bombers shouldn't have mouse aim

Oh he was purely talking about turrets? Don't attack from right behind the plane. Hitting a fighter coming from the side / above / below is a lot harder while hitting a bomber from such angles is not that much more difficult, unless you can barely catch up.

 

6 minutes ago, Stakke said:

The abuse mentioned in the original post is of minor importance and does not justify the afore mentioned changes in reward system.
Players killing low BR planes on alt accounts or friendly accounts can be solved in a much easier way. Dealing with the reports of those players and banning them from SB will handle this easily.

A second way is not to reward kills of planes on which are on the ground, in that case there will be no incentive anymore to kill planes on alt/friendly accounts on the runway. Also, this way the abusive stafing gameplay can be eliminated too. 

This would help a bit but then airfield strafers would just wait until the plane just took off and is still an easy target because it is at a huge energy disadvantage. The only option that I see is better AAA protecting airfields. Maybe even more AAA in a bigger radius (second ring) to make a bigger safe zone so that you have time to build up energy.

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One issue Gaijin needs to understand with regard to Heli EC (i suppose thats what we are talking about here at the core) is that people resolve to this kind of "rigging" due to sheer desperation when it comes to spading low tier helis. If you change the rewards the underlying issue won't change. Give low tier helis something to do in this battle or separate them from the hight BR helis like Kamovs. 

 

Look, as a Mi 4 you could go and farm NPC tanks. NOPE! The KAs will be there much faster and kill everything before you arrive...

 

That is if you arrive, because the Kamovs can kill you from 8km away.

 

But I am sure the devs do understand the problem and it does not require a detailed explanation. Please just take care of it.

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5 minutes ago, _BringTheRain_ said:

This is the death of fighters in Sim EC.

 

I do not believe this is the right direction. 

Some context: I exclusively fly Sim EC, and I almost exclusively fly fighters. I focus on interdicting bombers/protecting our airfields, and capturing objectives. These are all relevant tasks to the overall victory. 

 

The proposed simplification of the economy would directly impact me and others like me. 
On average, I end a good match with between 15 and 25 air kills. @ Ouiche are you saying that I should not receive high rewards for my actions?

 

You are punishing fighter aircraft this way - not just fighter aircraft, but specifically great players who are much much more skilled than the average player. 

I am vehemently against these changes, my proposal for an alternative is to invest some dollars into an actual player reporting system from this century. 

 

 

This. Abusing players reporting systems that works

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1 hour ago, Ouiche said:

At the same time, game room/lobby mechanics can be used by dishonest players to create ‘rigged’ battles where they can repeatedly destroy the same cooperating enemy and as the actual destruction of that enemy is a fairly infrequent event in EC, the reward for it is set high.

Thank you this is really really bad in Helicopter EC currently I am happy to see this. I still see ground targets rewarding nothing compared to killing enemy heli's.

 

I think adding a report feature to report players that are doing it because if i do helicopter battles for a night I end up running out of reports because there are soo many people doing this.

Edited by Thatz
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This post simply does not contain enough information to make an informed opinion on the proposed changes. It sounds like Gaijin wants to implement a reward that is simply calculated by a formula of

(Time Flown By Player * Fixed Reward Value) = Reward Given To Player

whenever the team achieves an objective. This sounds like it takes skill out of the equation, but it's not nearly clear enough what the actual plan is, so I might be totally wrong.

 

Regardless, I wish to propose my own equation for the reward given. From experience, the current rewards per minute for premium accounts is 1000 RP per minute of game time on average. This means a value of 500 RP per minute for non-premium accounts.

 

I also wish to redefine battle activity. 50% battle activity would mean having an average participation in events in the battle. Thus if all players in the match achieve 2 air kills, everyone has 50% battle activity.
If 3 players have 2 kills, 1 player has 1 kill, and 1 player has three kills, the average amount of kills is 10/5=2. From this it follows that the players with 2 kills have 50% battle activity (50%*(2/2)=50%), the player with 1 kill has 25% battle activity (50%*(1/2)=25%) and the player with 3 kills has 75% battle activity (50%*3/2=75%).

 

Using these values I propose the following equation to calculate end-of-match RP rewards:

Mission Reward = 500 * Time Played In Minutes * 2 * (Battle Activity/50%)
And for a premium account it is obviously doubled. Additionally, the win/loss modifiers should also be applied afterwards.

 

Calculating the appropriate SL reward to go along with this is harder because of repair costs. I am unsure what the proper ratio of RP to SL should be, but I believe that the SL reward after earning 400k RP should allow you to fully buy and crew a top tier vehicle (~1.5 million SL) with 250k SL extra (so that you can buy expert crews on select vehicles).  This comes to a total of 1.75 million SL earned after subtracting the average repair cost accrued in the time it takes to gain 400k RP.

The exact ratio of SL:RP should can easily be calculated from this if Gaijin simply inputs their goal value for the average repair cost.

 

With these calculations it should on average take a player with a premium account 6 hours and 40 minutes to research a 400K RP vehicle and then buy and crew it, which I believe is reasonable.
Additionally, players that perform above the average are rewarded accordingly and players that achieve nothing receive nothing.

Additionally this should be implemented to stop abusers gaining an unfair economic advantage. The exact threshold should be something like twice the average amount of kills in a particular timeframe.

56 minutes ago, MattWD said:

ok gamers in life there is great principle called occums razor

it means simple solution is often the best

you do not need to massively change the whole reward system

just make it so if a player kills another player more than 7+ times within 30 minutes no reward is given for subsequent kills

 

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Making the mode less attractive won't help. Sim mode is already lacking players, so it would be better to implement a solution like the one suggested by @MattWD

 

Quote

ok gamers in life there is great principle called occums razor

it means simple solution is often the best

you do not need to massively change the whole reward system

just make it so if a player kills another player more than 7+ times within 30 minutes no reward is given for subsequent kills

 

 

 

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EC rewards are unfair comparing to other modes. If peoples play 1 hour in EC they get much much more reward than same 1 hour in other modes. In my opinion reward should not motivate peoples to choose their modes so I think you should make all reward equal regardless of mode.

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I have a question: more and more players join this mode, which is good news. why should we reduce the revenue and drive them away with technology? u don't really think this model is popular, do you? If players want to experience the most real air combat, why not choose DCS world? why choose warthunder? I think you should make suggestions to gaijin and constantly make new modifications to the helicopter

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3 minutes ago, Mahd1378 said:

与其他模式相比,EC奖励是不公平的。 如果人们在EC中玩1个小时,他们获得的奖励比在其他模式下的1个小时要多得多。 我认为,奖励不应激励人们选择自己的方式,因此我认为无论模式如何,您都应使所有奖励均等。

yes, gaijin should be asked to increase the benefits of other models, rather than reduce the existing models

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