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Simplified profit/earning system in EC missions


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Thank you for all your feedback! Your suggestions and ideas were passed to the development team. They will continue to work on it and when ready, we will again share any news with you.

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Fighters_855f9ae8fa9945e9bf3125116182481

 

EC missions (all of them) differ from other game modes because of their duration (session time), respawns and game room (lobby) mechanics. 

The extended duration of the mission and low concentration of gameplay actions results in a large reward for each individual action. The system of multiple respawns is implemented through a ‘cost’ for each fly out and not vehicle loss. Both of these points make the economy system noticeably more difficult to set up and understand for players - a player when respawning in a vehicle initially has a shortage of game currency and then has to do without reward for a lengthy period in search of a suitable target.

At the same time, game room/lobby mechanics can be used by dishonest players to create ‘rigged’ battles where they can repeatedly destroy the same cooperating enemy and as the actual destruction of that enemy is a fairly infrequent event in EC, the reward for it is set high.

To solve this issue, we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission (not taking into account time on the airfield - a more detailed description will be published separately) instead of a reward for each individual action. However, the bonus reward for winning a mission and the half reward for returning to an airfield would remain unchanged. The average level of reward over time in switching to the new system would remain unchanged and will correspond to reward received by players in other game modes.

These proposed changes are intended to help honest players to choose mission objectives based on personal interest rather than possible profit. It should negate the opportunity for dishonest players to use this game mode for their own selfish purposes.

Don't hesitate to leave your feedback!

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If I understand this correctly, you want all of us to behave more like a team and give us reward by getting team objectives, while a lone wanderer would have a hard time getting anything from it's actions

 

I really like this idea

 

I like because yes, I really feel like EC should be a team gamemode, of course if you are the one that has the mosts kills you should be the one that gains the more money, but at the end you play to win, and that can only be achieved as a team. Of course, if you are the one that kills the most, you should gain more, so kills should feel rewarding in this new reward system (really wanting too see that explained description of the system), but still, winning as a team should be the condicioning factor in rewards, imo

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EC ordinarily involves a heavy investment of time.  I hope that whatever changes are being considered don't destroy the rewards for such a heavy time investment in an attempt to fix the cheater problem.  Sim population numbers are already fairly low.  I would hate to drive even more people out of that game mode.

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1. Stop the possibility for all vs all nations player created rooms

2. Give us the Airfields Air RB has gotten already and increase the distance between them

3. Increase the size of EC6 and EC7 maps 

4. SPAAs are needed in EC6 an EC7 to protect own airfields

5. Insert a 5-minutes time locker for the most exploited zomber planes like the A2D

6. Increase the XPs and SLs earned for shooting down enemy planes and ground targets using a fighter plane

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It is hard to say w/o detailed description.

It can work but I also see it as potential for huge disaster.
I'll wait with my feedback till I see details personally.

For now:
Paying just for flying is not a greatest idea. People would just fly around doing nothing.
On the other hand flying near AI bomber formation as escort should pay (now we get nothing).

If we tie this reward to personal score then bombers will rotflstomp economy since they can zomber huge personal score in no time. In fact no amount of fighters and CAS can win games against team full o bombers even if you kill 75% of them.

There is also matter of refund for survival. Maybe instead of paying for doing nothing we can get a refund for a plane if we survive and exit (just like RB players get no repair cost if they land, repair and quit).
 

Edited by przybysz86
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post more info guys, its hard to understand how you want to implement this changes ... at first glance to me its sound liek another nerf to getting sl and rp in RC and i am sure its not gonna stop "dishonest" players from doing whatever hey do. waiting for more news tough ... it may be good 

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As it stands, Naval EC, at least, isn't worth the time investment. You spend between one and three hours in a match, contribut to your team, and come out of it with, on average, about the same rewards as you get for two RB matches, at best. As those two matches will take, at most, around one hour, I don't find the benefits of EC's better game-mode to outweigh this poor economy.

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On 25/01/2021 at 17:12, Ouiche said:

Fighters_855f9ae8fa9945e9bf3125116182481

 

EC missions (all of them) differ from other game modes because of their duration (session time), respawns and game room (lobby) mechanics. 

The extended duration of the mission and low concentration of gameplay actions results in a large reward for each individual action. The system of multiple respawns is implemented through a ‘cost’ for each fly out and not vehicle loss. Both of these points make the economy system noticeably more difficult to set up and understand for players - a player when respawning in a vehicle initially has a shortage of game currency and then has to do without reward for a lengthy period in search of a suitable target.

At the same time, game room/lobby mechanics can be used by dishonest players to create ‘rigged’ battles where they can repeatedly destroy the same cooperating enemy and as the actual destruction of that enemy is a fairly infrequent event in EC, the reward for it is set high.

To solve this issue, we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission (not taking into account time on the airfield - a more detailed description will be published separately) instead of a reward for each individual action. However, the bonus reward for winning a mission and the half reward for returning to an airfield would remain unchanged. The average level of reward over time in switching to the new system would remain unchanged and will correspond to reward received by players in other game modes.

These proposed changes are intended to help honest players to choose mission objectives based on personal interest rather than possible profit. It should negate the opportunity for dishonest players to use this game mode for their own selfish purposes.

Don't hesitate to leave your feedback!

 

All the abuse and dishonesty is occuring in Player Created Rooms.

 

All the farmers, grinders, abusers dishonest players are gathering in Player Cread Rooms.

 

Here is the root of the problem that needs to be resolved:

 

 

 

Dishonest play, the abuse occurs in the empty rooms which is made in Player Created Rooms, rooms without players and competition.

 

The best thing that prevents this is competition. 

 

Despite low population there are so many empty rooms and alternatives for the rooms with same specifications (BR, Server, Nation etc)  which divides the population even more resulting empty rooms where everyone can roam freely and pick the so called "enemy" they want. Dishonest players are freely creating new rooms until they get an empty one where they can abuse it in peace. and secure victory.

 

The option of creating rooms so called "Player Created Rooms" should be revomed totally. The game should make the rooms, official rooms. The removal of the player created rooms will increase the population in the maps thus increasing the competition where abusing won't be possible due to constant interruption by other players. 

 

First of all removal of the Player Created Rooms will have the greatest impact on abusers.

 

People abuse rooms to ensure victory for total result. They join empty maps and bomb targets or kills AI's in peace without interruption. Also allowing players to create a room with the nation they want lets them to make match ups such as: France vs All. Where it becomes impossible for the French team to gain victory due to lack of players. 

 

This Player Created Rooms are not only hurting the loyal players (damage to a game mode) who are merely enjoying the game also it damages the Gaijins monetary profits both in short and long term (Purchase of premium account golden eagle etc.)

 

In full competitive rooms even if two players were to agree to kill each other due to the distance from friendly airfield to the enemy they would get intercepted by competitive players on the way by the time they organize their abuse or arranged kill. One player won't be able to kill same player constantly because he won't survive long enough to kill him.

This is also valid for bomber/abusers because bomber will not survive long enough to bomb his target constantly feom the shortest way possible and will be forced to climb and use different and longer strategies and safer routes in order to bomb with success because otherwise the bomber will be killed.

Consequently abuse will be prevented. 

 

Full competition can only be achieved by preventing players to create their own desired rooms by making few empty rooms and many crowded rooms as possible. 

 

Official rooms, official EC's are the places where the competition is at peak those rooms have the least abusers or grinders because dishonestly is spotted easily and gets punished either by player or the game itself unlike the player created rooms.

 

In none of the game modes you are not allowed to pick the enemy nation you want to fight why should you be able to do that in SB?  There is no other intention than abusing in France vs All

 

Those rooms are are merely dividing the SB population and tuening SB into grinding abusing/room. 

 

Opening Player Created Room?, with the specifications you want? which is an premium option where you get to pick tiers, nations, timings, maps, match ups you want?
You should pay for it. 

 

Player created room is not a right. It is a premium option and premium options should always be charged.

 

500GE is a good charge and also would encourage players to make GE purchases. 

 

So you want to make a special event with the specifications you want where you also can benefit from it with SL, RP?you should pay for it remarkably.

 

Charging Player Created Rooms per opened room with 500GE is better than removing.

 

Additionally please give the P-51A again! If not me than who deserves P-51A more than I do?? I have been waiting for it for 6 years already!

I even draw your Gaijilla and you decided I be 4th where I could get it by being 3rd...
https://live.warthunder.com/post/854562/en/
unknown.png?width=1025&height=286

 

Edited by AdelWolf
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ok gamers in life there is great principle called occums razor

it means simple solution is often the best

you do not need to massively change the whole reward system

just make it so if a player kills another player more than 7+ times within 30 minutes no reward is given for subsequent kills

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8 minutes ago, MattWD said:

ok gamers in life there is great principle called occums razor

it means simple solution is often the best

you do not need to massively change the whole reward system

just make it so if a player kills another player more than 7+ times within 30 minutes no reward is given for subsequent kills

This. Nothing more just this, its such a straight forward and correct answer, if it doesnt gets added exactly how its then... damn... these changes 100% are not to “fix” EC but to increase the ammount of time you need to waste in game along with money.

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11 minutes ago, MattWD said:

ok gamers in life there is great principle called occums razor

it means simple solution is often the best

you do not need to massively change the whole reward system

just make it so if a player kills another player more than 7+ times within 30 minutes no reward is given for subsequent kills

I've killed the same player 15+ times in one battle and I was not coordianting with him. in fact he was shooting back.

What you say won't work. in fact zombers would be very happy. people who do 20-30-50 suicide runs in one game would be very happy to hear that there is no reward for you to kill them more than x-times and that you will sooner or later leave them alone

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This will only hurt the honest players in the end, ultimately making the game mode not even worth playing.

The current system is fine, i rather not earn little SL for putting in an hours work of game play time.

Just have a separate report button for EC saying this person may be exploiting with another user and have it reviewed.

You could also have a system where people can watch replays players have reports in and if enough players agree on one thing, more serious moderation actions should be handed down.

 

Example Concept

 

You visit the replay section of the website.

You click a replay

From here you see the Reported Players

Spoiler

R9ntoi6.png

You can then view those two players in game, and see if those reports are valid.

If the claims are in faith to be true or false, you can say +/- 1 to these reports,

Example Here:

Spoiler

MwrE0X3.png

 

 

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and when a thresh hold of lets say minimally speaking, 50/75 other players validate the report, then it is passed off to more dedicated moderators for final review.

If the final review shows that they have foul play, those who took their time to report and validate the reports get a rep point or something, and after a certain amount of points

for being a trusted reporter and keeping the game safe, you get decal or title or some sort of small reward for helping keeping the game safe.

It's hard to abuse such system too as troll reports can easily be outed, and troll +/- 1s can be easily outed as well since the masses will ultimately tell the real stuff from fake.

Also if the outed trolls show, just have a special switch to block them from validating stuff in the future as they will ultimately be dishonest anyway.

 

I've seen this system on other games, and has worked well, I do not see why it wouldn't work in war thunder.

 

Rather than destroying a already in trouble game mode, help clean the filth out of it and make it a better place.

 

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I get where they're coming from. But if you're going to start limiting rewards over a span of time at least reduce the obscene repair costs of vehicles in the higher tiers. There's little reason to play SB as is without engineering matches to have a shred of hope of breaking even. Be it encouraging bomber-only lobbies or squadrons splitting to create insular matches. 

In my eyes people wouldn't have to do this if the in-game economy was, at all, sustainable in the long run for high tier vehicles which you keep drowning in ever increasing repair costs. It's unviable as is to play, what I find, the most enjoyable BR's in simulator because there's no hope of making even 1k SL's profit depending which nation you're playing, even more so if one lacks premium vehicles in those BR's.

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12 minutes ago, MattWD said:

ok gamers in life there is great principle called occums razor

it means simple solution is often the best

you do not need to massively change the whole reward system

just make it so if a player kills another player more than 7+ times within 30 minutes no reward is given for subsequent kills

Probably the best option in my opinion, though part of me thinks in Helicopter EC things would have to be tweaked.

One idea is to take the Spawn Point system of smart-missile loadouts like Vikhr's, PARS, Hellfires. AAMs as well. Timers potentially for such loadouts too if possible. It would encourage more close-up fighting, and give lower BR helicopters a slightly better chance to make an earning from matches. (We already have the SP system for loadouts by way of Ground RB plane/heli spawns, so it can be done)

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(Dear SB players, here is your topic I guess, but nevermind. They haven't specifically stated SB) 

 

The only non-simulator EC currently available is the Helicopter EC. I don't care what you are doing with mission economics as I can't earn them because of your imaginary balance. 90% of the helicopter owners don't play this gamemode because Vikhr missile powercreep and imbalance. Here is my 3 suggestions to fix the gamemode:

 

 

1) Remove the Vikhr missile from the possible loadouts for helicopter EC

 

or 

 

2) Seperate Ka-50 and Ka-52 from other helicopters and open different rooms for them to play seperate

 

or

 

3) Remove all the maps except City, the only map Ka-50/52 players don't have  clear advantage 

Edited by efetenekeci
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33 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

To solve this issue, we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission (not taking into account time on the airfield - a more detailed description will be published separately) instead of a reward for each individual action. However, the bonus reward for winning a mission and the half reward for returning to an airfield would remain unchanged. The average level of reward over time in switching to the new system would remain unchanged and will correspond to reward received by players in other game modes.

I don't understand the change. "per time period when reaching a specific event"? Does that mean that everyone currently in the match gets rewarded when an objective is achieved? That could be good. It should probably be coupled with a minimum activity.

Very often multiple players go for the same objective like shooting down the AI scout plane which can involve a lengthy search and climb and only one of them gets the reward. Or multiple bombers bomb the same base. It would also be good if players in the vicinity of a "point earning" would be rewarded. Often multiple planes are involved in a kill. And it would incentivize bombers flying together for more realism and cover against fighters if one of them getting points for bombing a base would also benefit the others.

Reward wise at the moment everything besides bombing bases and airfields seems not rewarding enough. If you play a fighter you can be lucky if you get a minor SL gain.

 

BTW maneuver kills should finally be rewarded in all game modes. If a plane crashes every enemy plane in the vicinity (like 1km) should get a reward, like an assist. Often I'm in a nice dogfight or dodge a plane really well and he just slams into the ground and I get nothing for it.

 

BTW finally improve airfield protection against fast jets (>700kmh). Airfield strafing / camping is still super common and the biggest issue of Air SB.

 

32 minutes ago, ARHANGHEL_MIHAIL said:

a) Remove all costs from ec.
b) Remove all earnings from ec.
c ) Unlock new planes by : enemy killed * F(time played).

Make point c high so it-s not easy to unlock

Problem solved.

Any new patch to the already broken economy will just add chaos.

wat? Not every type of plane is a fighter so purely counting kills is not a good idea.

 

27 minutes ago, GiganticWeeaboo said:

I dont like this idea. 
Bomber rewards should be reduced
Alt account farmers should be manually reviewed and game banned when reported
and air to air kills should be more rewarding. 
this would fix so much of what is wrong with EC right now. 
Instead of '' simplifying '' rewards

Bomber rewards seem fine, the other rewards are too low.

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  1. Increase rewards for shooting down planes and doing objectives.
  2. Actually ban people who are killing their alt-accounts, there are more than enough reports about this I mean I just reported one today who has been doing this for MONTHS.
  3. Remove spawn costs, if you die you pay the full repair cost, with the option of using 1 backup. 
  4. Every time we have this type of discussion rewards are nerfed and the population dwindles, before you guys go foaming at the mouth about zombers and how they ruin the game just remember that if they leave EC rooms will be empty since they make up for half the players present. Just make their presence less of an influence on the outcome of the game.
  5. "we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission instead of a reward for each individual action."
    This is a terrible idea, not only will you limit the rewards for those abusing EC, but you will also be limiting rewards for those who are the most successful and carry their team or get many kills.
    Do not punish the most succesul players because you are unable to moderate your own game even after receiving literally thousands of reports about the abuse!
     
  6. The rewards in EC are already lower than they are if you were to play RB, the entire SL modifier is a lie even though it shows higher in SB you get less, fix this, ban those farming their alt accounts and stop allowing hoardes of zombers to determine the outcome of game where they are dying 20+ times yet still win by zerg rushing the entire map.
  7. Allow SB players to participate in warbonds and events, the easiest way to fix EC is to reward those who fly skillfully while punishing those who die often because they are on kamikaze autopilot. There is no excuse that a player who is investing hundreds or thousands in hardware (and is more likely to invest in your game) to be making less SL in SB where they actually have to control the plane than someone using a $10 mouse in AB/RB. Reward those who are skilled in SB instead of rewarding RB refugees who only use this mode to exploit their way for some easy cash while also getting gyro stabilized mouse turrets, which are just a slap in the face to someone who is desperately fighting to control their aircraft using joystick/mouse j/s in order to aim. 
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1 minute ago, efetenekeci said:

(Dear SB players, here is your topic I guess, but nevermind. They haven't specifically stated SB) 

 

The only non-simulator EC currently available is the Helicopter EC. I don't care what you are doing with mission economics as I can't earn them because of your imaginary balance. 90% of the helicopter owners don't play this gamemode because Vikhr missile caused powercreep and imbalance. Here is my 3 suggestions to fix the gamemode:

 

 

1) Remove the Vikhr missile from the possible loadouts for helicopter EC

 

or 

 

2) Seperate Ka-50 and Ka-52 from other helicopters and open different rooms for them to play seperate

 

or

 

3) Remove all the maps except City, the only map Ka-50/52 players don't have  clear advantage 

 

Easy to do, if you didn't pay for the Helicopter (ex. Ka-52). But considering the likes of me shelved a cold $50 for the Ka-50, I'd feel like my money would be stolen if they were to remove the effective part of the helicopter outright.

 

Spawn Points/Timers on Smart Weapons (Vikhrs, PARS, Hellfires and general AAMs) is the best way to go in my opinion on allowing lower-tier helis to have a more plausible fight with higher-tier vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I am not a defender of the Ka-50, but I do definitely see its...Advantages.

 

 

unknown1.png

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20 minutes ago, AdelWolf said:

Dishonest play, the abuse occurs in the empty rooms, rooms without players and competition. The best thing that prevents this is competition. 

Despite low population there are so many empty rooms and alternatives for the rooms with same specifications (BR, Server, Nation etc.9  which divides the population even more resulting many empty rooms where everyone roam freely. Dishonest players are freely creating new rooms until they get an empty one where they can abuse it in peace. The option of creating rooms so called "Player Created Rooms" should be closed. The game should make the rooms. The removal of the player created rooms will increase the population in the maps thus increasing the competition where abusing won't be possible due to constant interruption by other players. 

 

unknown.png?width=1025&height=286

 

Why they have to remove user created rooms?

For example i don't wanna fight with my F4E with GB F4s or Japanese F4

Players wanna play in their favorite nation combinations and they should be able to combine  their favorite nation selection.r 

Bcz of a few players who abusing you wanna  restrict room creating??? This is truly unfair.

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3 hours ago, TinyTinkerTank said:

Bomber rewards seem fine, the other rewards are too low.

I both agree and disagree here, bomber rewards are only good in terms of RP gained, they still earn next to no SL whatsoever.

 

I used to be able to spend 2 or more hours in a match and make upwards of 500k SL and maybe around 100k RP for both bombing and shooting down some planes, but now breaking 100K SL is a trial and a half while RP is more or less unchanged.

 

Bombers are still really only relevant is sim EC and having their rewards nerfed again would remove the only game mode where they are still relevant, completely disenfranchising sim bomber pilots. I cannot support further reduction in SIM EC gains.

 

Now I do however support increased rewards for those engaging in air to air combat. I've had games where I've gotten upwards of 20 kills to only realize I'm making only about half as much as I would if I just bombed bases and airfields. This needs to be rectified and buffed to be in line with the rewards that ground pounders get.

 

Along with this, for those who dont know whats the root cause of this change I'll explain why they are doing this. In some SIM EC matches people will spawn in a bomber, usually the JU-288 due to it's premium bonuses and clear out the AA from a empty base. They will then spawn in a reserve biplane on a second account on the airfield. They will then land and kill that reserve plane over and over and over again. I've seen people do this and get upwards of 80 kills in a match.

 

A quick fix to this issue would be putting a reward timer on spawned aircraft, meaning a player would not get a kill reward unless the aircraft has taken off within a time frame.

 

Now on the case of people raving about the quote on quote "zombers" no its not a problem as of late, dying after bombing is horribly inefficient compared to actually going back and landing, I make far more in a A2D by going back and landing after bombing, this play style is already heavily penalized and is not efficient if your goal is to actually make a high RP profit.

 

If everyone does actually have a big enough hard on for railing bombers again, then leave the rewards for bombers that actually come back and land intact, and reduce the rewards of aircraft that crash after a set time after being awarded bombing credits.

 

In the case of zombing winning games, it does not as of late, bases give next to no victory point rewards, you have to complete objective to make any meaningful progress, and a number of those missions are still air to air or zone capture, which cant be accelerated by bombers.

 

Don't nerf bombers more in the only mode where they are relevant yet still have the highest buy in costs of any vehicle type in the game, bombing rewards have already been nerfed 3 times, we don't need more nerfs, increase rewards for other play styles, not the other way around.

Edited by Lolman345
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@Lolman345 problem is zombers mostly care about RP and by doing suicide run after run after run they are almost guaranteed to win the game.

No team that care about survival can win against team of suicide **** like that.

They might not earn lot of SL but they make sure enemy won't get victory reward either and everyone loses.

Edited by przybysz86
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6 minutes ago, Gawr_Gura said:

Just have a separate report button for EC saying this person may be exploiting with another user and have it reviewed.

You could also have a system where people can watch replays players have reports in and if enough players agree on one thing, more serious moderation actions should be handed down.

 

Example Concept

...

That would require us players to review other players all the time though. How many would actually do that? I sometimes check replays to search for cheaters and that is already super annoying especially since most cheaters still won't be banned.

 

3 minutes ago, Defbond said:
  1. Increase rewards for shooting down planes and doing objectives.
  2. Actually ban people who are killing their alt-accounts, there are more than enough reports about this I mean I just reported one today who has been doing this for MONTHS.
  3. Remove spawn costs, if you die you pay the full repair cost, with the option of using 1 backup. 
  4. Every time we have this type of discussion rewards are nerfed and the population dwindles, before you guys go foaming at the mouth about zombers and how they ruin the game just remember that if they leave EC rooms will be empty since they make up for half the players present. Just make their presence less of an influence on the outcome of the game.
  5. "we are considering options to simplify the economy system in EC missions by adding a fixed amount of SL and RP per time period when reaching a specific event in the mission instead of a reward for each individual action."
    This is a terrible idea, not only will you limit the rewards for those abusing EC, but you will also be limiting rewards for those who are the most successful and carry their team or get many kills.
    Do not punish the most succesul players because you are unable to moderate your own game even after receiving literally thousands of reports about the abuse!
     
  6. The rewards in EC are already lower than they are if you were to play RB, the entire SL modifier is a lie even though it shows higher in SB you get less, fix this, ban those farming their alt accounts and stop allowing hoardes of zombers to determine the outcome of game where they are dying 20+ times yet still win by zerg rushing the entire map.

Fully agree. The spawn costs system is really weird anyway. Why do I have to sometimes spend half an hour before I can play the good (high BR) planes while other players already have that advantage?

 

I rarely see zombers anymore since the rewards are only given fully when returning to the airfield. We are talking about suicide bombing, right?

 

Quote

7. Allow SB players to participate in warbonds and events, the easiest way to fix EC is to reward those who fly skillfully while punishing those who die often because they are on kamikaze autopilot. There is no excuse that a player who is investing hundreds or thousands in hardware (and is more likely to invest in your game) to be making less SL in SB where they actually have to control the plane than someone using a $10 mouse in AB/RB. Reward those who are skilled in SB instead of rewarding RB refugees who only use this mode to exploit their way for some easy cash while also getting gyro stabilized mouse turrets, which are just a slap in the face to someone who is desperately fighting to control their aircraft using joystick/mouse j/s in order to aim.

 

Dude chill out and git gut. Mouse players should also be welcome in this mode. This mode should not only be for those with some crazy 1500€ HOTAS setup. One can play with a mouse pretty fine with enough training, including dogfights.

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