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Everything wrong with War Thunder Sim - so much wasted potential


I used to fly a lot of IL2 Great Battles and DCS but since owning VR, I came back to War Thunder, because this is the only sim where I can run VR in 90 fps. 

Coming back after a 6 year break, I was both amazed from a technical standpoint and disheartened by the horrible game design.

 

So first the positives :

- While getting a lot of flak and being called "arcade game" or similar by the self-elected "serious simmers" in DCS and IL2, I think the flight models and the aerodynamic physics of War Thunder are pretty decent. While not having the same kind of uniqueness and fidelity then the other sims, the aircraft still definitely feel believable, have their unique characteristics and don't feel massively different then in the other sims. So it is definitely a sim and i can enjoy the flight models just as much as in DCS or IL2.

- The game engine is way way better then DCS or IL2. To this date both of them struggle heavily to display any kind of realistic ground warfare or movement in a meaningful scale without breaking even high-end processors, ending up in "wasteland" maps in multiplayer with some static 3D models of tanks and alike and no feeling of warfare what so ever. Coming to WT EC and actually seeing the ground units moving around, battling it out against each other was a very welcome sight. In addition the inclusion of bots, especially in regards of bomber formations is also awesome. It just feels so much more like a real war is going on, compared to the other sims.

- And all that with very good performance. Like already said at the beginning, the performance is the actual reason I picked up flying WT again, because I just can't stand flying with reprojection or less then 90fps in VR. With the other sims, achieving these numbers is impossible even with my quite decent rig (2080ti, i7 8770k at 4.9GhZ). War Thunder allows this and at the same time still looks quite decent in VR. 

- Disregarding the performance problems, the VR implementation overall seems to be much better in War Thunder compared to the other sims. Changing to VR from the monitor, I lost all situational awareness in the other sims and just always felt at a massive disadvantage compared to the monitor players. I don't know exactly why (apart from the way better spotting), but in War Thunder this is not the case. With VR I still feel competitive.

 

So all in all, from the technical standpoint I think War Thunder is brilliant and really a great base. But  jumping into the actual game design,

there are two massive problems :

- No historical scenarios: while completely understanding the BR mechanics, especially in Arcade and Realistic, where most people just want to always fly the "best" aircraft possible, those mechanics are probably necessary to get a balanced game (in terms of numbers). However, I would say most (not all!) simulator players are more interested in historical accuracy and historical scenarios and do not care about 100% equality regarding perceived aircraft performance. I won't go into detail, since there have been already quite a number of suggestions how to balance historical scenarios to get equal incentives for either side. When I left War Thunder all these years ago, at least there have been historical operations which have been quite some fun and there were always enough players on both sides. No idea why they got rid of it. But now I would just implement historical ECs, to get the best of both worlds. Seeing the way people are always craving for every new theatre in IL2 Great Battles and WT having the potential to create tons of these theatres (also really "rare" ones like Battle of France, Battle of Khalkin Gol or pacific theatres) without really having to invest time, since all the assets are already there, just makes me sad. Just give players the option to either join a BR EC or a historical EC.

- Mouse-aim for bomber gunners: This is really a game-breaking exploit. It just doesn't make any sense that serious sim pilots have to use joysticks or alike to battle all kinds of aerodynamics, torque effects and wobbling, while the bombers can just pin point shots using mouse-aim, just like in arcade mode. This has already been a problem 8 years ago and I am baffled that it's still not fixed. Many "realistic mode players" are hopping over to sim for the sole reason to exploit this. Just implement the same control the actual pilots have to use, let the gunners steer their guns with relative control and also battle the aircraft movements! (joystick, pad or "mouse joystick"). This after all was like you would have steered a real gun as well! Would take almost no development effort, since the control scheme is already there. 

 

There are other, lesser problems as well, such as a borked finances for sim players and missing bomber cockpits, but these are not as severe for me personally.

 

I am honest, if I would not be dependent on good VR performance, I would leave War Thunder again, solely because of these two main problems, who just cause frustration a tad too often.

On the other side, if these two problems would be solved, War Thunder would be my favourite sim, without even taking the VR part into consideration. 

 

I think the greatest shame is, that these are not some delusional, hard-to-achieve changes that take a lot of work, such as bomber cockpits for example, where I can understand that the devs don't focus on it, because it's a lot of work and would cost a lot of money.  But on the contrary, it would take virtually no development effort what so ever and at the same time increase the experience for sim pilots so drastically. 

 

So why are the Devs just ignoring this? The only reason I can think of, is that there is not a single dev playing and caring about the simulator mode what so ever. In addition, the devs probably have a few misconceptions regarding the sim mode. They see a low player count and thus they think, the sim mode just won't make them any money, so they don't even put one minute of thought into it. What they probably don't think about is, that many sim players generally spend a lot more money on gaming then some kids playing arcade. While a kid may convince his parents once or twice to get a premium plane for Christmas and bring in 50 bucks, there are many simmers out there spending well over 1000 bucks for their flight sims. I know I have spent more then 1000 bucks over the past 7 or so years for IL2 and DCS. I would probably spend the same amount of money for War Thunder if I could mentally support their approach towards the sim mode. But as long as the devs are ignoring the sim mode, my wallet is ignoring the bank account of the devs. And I know quite some folks who see it similar.

Another scale effect is, that War Thunder would probably "bring back" quite some simmers from IL2 and DCS, and not only because of the good VR implementation. But that's probably also not part of the dev's profit and loss account. 

 

I will continue to hold my hopes up...you never know. Even though, I do not have much hopes. For now, I am "forced" to play WT anyway. At least I am not forced to spend money on it. 

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51 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

It just feels so much more like a real war is going on

After doing thousands of battles its quite repetitive actually, same things happen over and over. Although I agree to your points on performance, friendlier flight models etc. Although one thing is bothering me for ages that is : war thunder's scaling is so wrong. Some of the control levers in the cockpit are in size of lollypops, microscopic tanks but destroyer size fishing boats and other map objects. Also all of the other titles you've mentioned has consistent and quality cockpits. War Thunder is really behind on that aspect, years of "placeholder cockpits" is just a shame. Other titles have decent map sizes, while WT feels like flying RC planes in a football field.

 

51 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

- Mouse-aim for bomber gunners:

Gaijin is obviously not removing that on purpose, I really think that an average mouse and keyboard A/RB player is much more profitable than a dedicated sim player. In addition to everything you've mentioned above, in each update SB gets screwed even more. While game provides new vehicles, engine updates like clouds and particles, there is absolutely no SB fixes. Lately SB gets even excluded from the updates which are available in other game modes.

 

I strongly suggest you to watch this stream to understand Gaijin's perspective on future of SB,

...which is -If you don't like it, don't play it

Edited by _Thrash_
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1 hour ago, _Thrash_ said:

After doing thousands of battles its quite repetitive actually, same things happen over and over.

Yeah, I can quite understand that, since it's always the same pattern. Still an upgrade over either static 3D objects or 5v5 moving vehicles in DCS and IL2.

 

1 hour ago, _Thrash_ said:

lthough one thing is bothering me for ages that is : war thunder's scaling is so wrong. Some of the control levers in the cockpit are in size of lollypops, microscopic tanks but destroyer size fishing boats and other map objects. Also all of the other titles you've mentioned has consistent and quality cockpits. War Thunder is really behind on that aspect, years of "placeholder cockpits" is just a shame. Other titles have decent map sizes, while WT feels like flying RC planes in a football field.

Yeah, i agree. Could have included these points, but for me personally the two main points I issued bother me much more. These are more "nice to have", since we know from other sims, that it can be better.

 

1 hour ago, _Thrash_ said:

I strongly suggest you to watch this stream to understand Gaijin's perspective on future of SB,

Thank you. Do you know the time where they are talking about that? Don't wanna work myself through an hour of unsubstantial talk..

 

1 hour ago, _Thrash_ said:

which is -If you don't like it, don't play it

Yeah, shame is that in terms of flight sims in VR there is just no alternative for me currently :-( in the autumn I'll probably get a new highest-end processor and will take another attempt in IL2

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He is right. I totally agree with our commander, mister Yudintsev.
The status of our simulation is now better than at the time of this interview.
The most pressing issue has been resolved ( high tier balancing ).
As mister Yudintsev said, changes will occur in simulator mode, but at a slower pace, and he kept his promise.

 

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14 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

Yeah, I can quite understand that, since it's always the same pattern. Still an upgrade over either static 3D objects or 5v5 moving vehicles in DCS and IL2.

I'm not sure if its something to be proud of but I can exactly call when bombers will arrive, where they will head on and what type of vehicle they are right before it happens in EC not in operations. I'd so much love to have specialized class missions. For example : (player) bombers have a task to do and as a player fighter I'm tasked with preventing it,

-Bomb the industrial complex at Schweinfurt

-Defend Schweinfurt

which should also affect the modifications that I can spawn with, if bombers fail I can spawn with all modifications and the bomber SP points increase, if fighters fail, the fighter SP increases and I cannot have the engine modification etc.

 

To me this is a dynamic game play. -If they press space you loose tickets blegh....

20 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

"nice to have"

If voiced my opinion about this many times, all premiums should be finished. BV 228, Be6, Ju 288 you name it, is sold for gold, which either you grind it with wagers or tournaments but mainly people get gold with money....should be finished years ago.

 

31 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

Do you know the time where they are talking about that?

 

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@Celestiale  Good post and valid points.

I agree about WT being the best Flight Sim with regards to VR support...  Warbirds to AH to WarThunder over the last 25+ years and going from 4K WT flat screen to Oculus Rift in VR brought back the immersiveness of the game.   Flying DCS in VR--Gack!  No other aircraft (what fun is that) its fine...dogfighting...I feel like someone dilated my eyes and I'm trying to see...  IL-2, got it, tried it, but sweet jesus finding an aircraft in VR was a nightmare.  Dove on a guy and when he pulled up into the blue...gone..POOF!   Spent 45 minutes flying around looking for a fight...and by the time I spotted it, got there, it was over...   Might as well fly Microsoft Flight Sim if I want to drone around.

Biggest item I miss from the other sims: AH the "voice when within range" feature was nice...so you could at least communicate with fellow players...that was about it for that game. The Nazi approach to forum management drove me away from that game....    Warbirds-- first love so it holds a special spot.  Lost its focus and turned into a "sit in Ground vehicles and wait for aircraft to fly by" game...players would retreat to GV's if they were getting beat up, vs rolling from a field further away and coming in with Alt.  But stupid is as stupid does....   Best part of that game was the S3s.....150 people aside, one life to live, coordinated focused objectives for each side, and large maps.   Was a HOOT!  Now I hear they are down to 25 a side and large maps makes it hard to find the opposition.   

IF WT could come up with some good sized maps, and open up the room size to a 30 on 30 that would be a great start.  Need dedicated people to help with maps, then people to organize the event, then someone to do after action "scoring" and maintaining webpage.   Might try something on a smaller scale and see what happens.... 
 

Your two negatives...spot on!

Cheers!
Dobs

@_Thrash_  Yep agree..... having a player mission creation in the game would be great.  Have some idea's on that over the years as well.....but don't really have any Devs to post to that I know. 

Sim is such a small niche for the company, I totally understand the level of effort they devote to it.  Sad thing is they could OWN the market in simulations with little effort in my opinion.

Cheers!

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3 minutes ago, Dobs_ said:

Sim is such a small niche for the company,

Sorry for spamming but the problem here is

Gaijin say Sim is not very popular, I agree SB can be frustrating for a new player

But my argument is : did you do anything to make SB popular? This is such a chicken and egg debate.

5 minutes ago, Dobs_ said:

Sad thing is they could OWN the market in simulations with little effort in my opinion.

Yeah, no other game has the action aspect of WT. If they put little effort into it just a little....Just fix the game a little and stop spamming SB with broken elements for easy money, it could be the best.

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To be fair has RB/AB had any more development than Sim? Genuine question as I don't play either of those.

 

I know they added World War mode which I don't think anybody really likes but other than that they don't even get Enduring Confrontation matches unless Gaijin decides to give it to them once in a blue moon. Other than that it's just the same boring old deathmatch mode isn't it? 

 

In comparison SB hasn't done too badly. 

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45 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

To be fair has RB/AB had any more development than Sim? Genuine question as I don't play either of those.

 

I know they added World War mode which I don't think anybody really likes but other than that they don't even get Enduring Confrontation matches unless Gaijin decides to give it to them once in a blue moon. Other than that it's just the same boring old deathmatch mode isn't it? 

 

In comparison SB hasn't done too badly. 

 

Well, in RB and AB they are always very quick to fix lopsided/unbalanced matters that can be abused.

The bomber abuse in simulator, which is way more severe then any abuse that has ever happened in AB or RB hasn't been fixed in 8 years.

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5 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

 

Well, in RB and AB they are always very quick to fix lopsided/unbalanced matters that can be abused.

The bomber abuse in simulator, which is way more severe then any abuse that has ever happened in AB or RB hasn't been fixed in 8 years.

 

This is done by purpose. RB and AB fighters are abusing SIM EC to generate big amounts of XPs and to grind fast through the Tech Trees. This is the business model

Edited by ivica70
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3 minutes ago, ivica70 said:

 

This is done by purpose. RB and AB fighters are abusing SIM EC to generate big amounts of XPs and to grind fast through the Tech Trees. This is the business model

 

But why should they do it? What do the devs gain of it? I mean, there aren't even premium heavies out there

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4 hours ago, Celestiale said:

I used to fly a lot of IL2 Great Battles and DCS but since owning VR, I came back to War Thunder, because this is the only sim where I can run VR in 90 fps. 

Coming back after a 6 year break, I was both amazed from a technical standpoint and disheartened by the horrible game design................

 

OMG Thank you! Couldn't agree more.

I still think you have to ignore WT finances as best you can to enjoy sim. It helps if you prefer early to mid war aircraft as opposed to jets. If I wanted to fly jets I wouldn't fly here.

Edited by Gadjeman
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1 hour ago, Celestiale said:

 

But why should they do it? What do the devs gain of it? I mean, there aren't even premium heavies out there

 

 

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On 22/01/2021 at 18:34, ivica70 said:

 

 

 

I don't know. Is there any confirmation from official side that this is the case? Otherwise i can't really believe this theory, it seems quite a long stretch. I don't think the Devs would willingly **** off the complete simulator community just to get another small niche income. The income would be way bigger with happy simulator players spending loads of money and many people from other simulators (DCS, IL2) coming over to play WT sim.

WT sim could be the reference, go-to-sim in terms of online gameplay.

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4 hours ago, Celestiale said:

 

I don't know. Is there any confirmation from official side that this is the case? Otherwise i can't really believe this theory, it seems quite a long stretch. I don't think the Devs would willingly **** off the complete simulator community just to get another small niche income. The income would be way bigger with happy simulator players spending loads of money and many people from other simulators (DCS, IL2) coming over to play WT sim.

WT sim could be the reference, go-to-sim in terms of online gameplay.

I don't know if there's real confirmation, but it seem that the problems affecting SB have been present for years, and nothing has been done yet (only thing I recall since I started playing SB is that they added EC7, nothing more) and gaijin does almost anything to fix them.

 

Althought I understand gaijin, the less played more difficult gamemode that your game isn't focused on it's natural to be in the bottom of the priority list

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47 minutes ago, AngelPiret said:

I don't know if there's real confirmation, but it seem that the problems affecting SB have been present for years, and nothing has been done yet (only thing I recall since I started playing SB is that they added EC7, nothing more) and gaijin does almost anything to fix them.

 

Althought I understand gaijin, the less played more difficult gamemode that your game isn't focused on it's natural to be in the bottom of the priority list

 

Question was, if the Devs are willingly ruining the game for proper simulator players to push RB players into sim, in giving them their zombers/deathstars and push them to spend money as @ivica70 referred to. And i am having a hard time to believe that. I rather think, they don't spend a second of thought regarding the sim mode and just keep it as it is because they don't care.

 

Regarding the bottom of the priority list - this is a shortsighted perspective, even though the current player count may look low. I alluded to that in this thread as well. 

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33 minutes ago, Celestiale said:

 

Question was, if the Devs are willingly ruining the game for proper simulator players to push RB players into sim, in giving them their zombers/deathstars and push them to spend money as @ivica70 referred to. And i am having a hard time to believe that. I rather think, they don't spend a second of thought regarding the sim mode and just keep it as it is because they don't care.

 

Regarding the bottom of the priority list - this is a shortsighted perspective, even though the current player count may look low. I alluded to that in this thread as well. 

 

I don't know either, but it seems that Gaijin has priorities and the relatively small Sim-Community is by far not their top priority. If not by purpose, so the zomber problematic with the exploiting of mouse aim and scoring thousands of XPs while flying bombers is really present in the SIM EC games and it is driving a part of Sim fighter pilots away from the game. But they are already substituted by exploiting RB and AB pilots who have acknowledged that there is an exploit and are using this exploit massively to score huge amounts of XPs. They have already formed some kind of a block in the SIM EC games and Gaijin is earning good money with them. They often buy some of the weird bomber planes like the ME264, or the premium Ju288 or the A2D and are farming and farming and farming

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  • 1 month later...

Would there really be any downside to entirely removing manual gunner control in SB? I have really good success just letting AI gunners do their thing in heavy bombers (I have maxed out most of my gunner stats over the years though). 

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Just having returned after several years... they did add first-person gunnery at least, while I was gone. Doesn't fix any of the big bombers' gunners, but stuff like the 110 doesn't get 360° vision anymore, which is nice.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Perustaja said:

Would there really be any downside to entirely removing manual gunner control in SB? I have really good success just letting AI gunners do their thing in heavy bombers (I have maxed out most of my gunner stats over the years though). 

I vaguely remember reading about cases in which gunners fired at ground forces. Definitely something I've done in-game more than once.

If they remove manual gunner control they'd need to add some gunner control interface, so I doubt it'll happen.

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3 hours ago, FourGreenFields said:

I vaguely remember reading about cases in which gunners fired at ground forces. Definitely something I've done in-game more than once.
If they remove manual gunner control they'd need to add some gunner control interface, so I doubt it'll happen.

There's a mechanic of selecting air/sea types of targets for the AI gunners to shoot at, in Naval games, already.

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On 05/03/2021 at 04:03, FourGreenFields said:

but stuff like the 110 doesn't get 360° vision anymore, which is nice.

We’re dealing with Gaijin here, so - sadly - if all that 1pv realism restricts your ability to exploit the game hurts your brain too much, you can turn it off and revert to the external view.

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6 minutes ago, Kernow1346 said:

We’re dealing with Gaijin here, so - sadly - if all that 1pv realism restricts your ability to exploit the game hurts your brain too much, you can turn it off and revert to the external view.

Checked the options now. I'm impressed. They actually put some effort into making SB better... and then threw it out of the window.

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"Everything wrong with War Thunder Sim"?

Tested the ITP today and it doesn't have torque, nor requires trimming...that's "Everything wrong with War Thunder Sim".

Edited by C0lander
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On 06/03/2021 at 22:44, C0lander said:

ested the ITP today and it doesn't have torque, nor requires trimming.

Not surprising... I'm finding more and more aircraft that can't stall no matter what you do. I mentioned in another thread that the Lancaster can loop at only 200'ishmph at sea level with a bomb load. Now I'm no physics expert but something seems off there.

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22 hours ago, [email protected] said:

I'm no physics expert

As a *ekhm* pilot (and drunk) you just need to remember one - Gravity is a B... :)

But think about it like that - a lot more planes added every patch.

No torque? No stalling? - ahh, comrade instructor got less things to worry about and also very little things to calculate for application.

Ahh, comrade advertising team leader - look, performance is 10% up - you can say it will run on everything - even *PC!


*PC - Potato Console (PS4) :D

 

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