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You can't win against German top tier


1 hour ago, Loongsheep said:

Depends on what you face.

What.

 

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The DM53 punches through Challenger 2 UFP and usually instant kill, while the DM33 will be stopped.

Ignoring the fact that only a small frontal portion actually stops DM33 and that if you're exposing the UFP either way, you're exposing the driver port, are we?

 

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Strv122 is less of a problem because less people play Sweden.

Yes, doesn't change the fact it's still a better vehicle that outclasses the 2A6.

Edited by senzawa
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10 minutes ago, senzawa said:

What.

 

Ignoring the fact that only a small frontal portion actually stops DM33 and that if you're exposing the UFP either way, you're exposing the driver port, are we?

 

Yes, doesn't change the fact it's still a better vehicle that outclasses the 2A6.

Yeah, but eventually when there is a round added better than DM53. The turret armor will be ruined because of how the modeled the composite effectiveness and the wedges. The superiority of the leopard 2 wedge won't even last unless Gaijn fixes the leopard 2s. I also find that the argument that hull down matters a lot is bs because in most situations depending on elevation the leopard 2 won't be able to hull down. At long ranges you are also more likely to arc into the hull. I know the leopard 2a5s and 2a6 are the best at the moment, but the arguments against them aren't strong. Mere failure to perform shouldn't affect balance.

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4 hours ago, Morrrtanius said:

 

Are you saying then that when allies stomp it's because they are good players and deserve to have winrates above 65%? Meanwhile, when axis stomp with winrates above 65%, it's all just because of how good their vehicles are and they don't deserve to have those same winrates?

Its usually the case, when Russia was stomping the tanks were pretty weak and actually killable, but now that the 2a6 has came there is practically no weakness to it, and it lolpen some Russian tanks which make Russian tanks useless. When I play the Abrams I have to aim for the lfp BUT the 2a6 can lolpen me anywhere unless it on the Cheeks of the M1A2.

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4 hours ago, senzawa said:

Oh you sweet sweet summer child.

I really haven't seen any of that on this board. Can you point to some examples? 

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1 hour ago, Kocant12 said:

Its usually the case, when Russia was stomping the tanks were pretty weak and actually killable, but now that the 2a6 has came there is practically no weakness to it, and it lolpen some Russian tanks which make Russian tanks useless. When I play the Abrams I have to aim for the lfp BUT the 2a6 can lolpen me anywhere unless it on the Cheeks of the M1A2.

No weaknesses and only having to shoot at lower plate? Mate, you have M829A1 round in M1A2. Even with regular M829 you can pen 2A6 hull basically anywhere.

A 2A5 can pen you about as reliably with DM33.

 

1 hour ago, Kocant12 said:

Its usually the case, when Russia was stomping the tanks were pretty weak and actually killable

A big part of the problem was that their armour was too much, weakspots extremely small and surprisingly unreliable. That's on top of being spammed left and right which all added together.

Weak? Not in the slightest.

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43 minutes ago, Taeblamees said:

A big part of the problem was that their armour was too much, weakspots extremely small and surprisingly unreliable. That's on top of being spammed left and right which all added together.

Weak? Not in the slightest.

The weakspot were pretty consistent except breach. Yes it was being spammed which is the only reason they won so much (and Ka50/52).

44 minutes ago, Taeblamees said:

Weak? Not in the slightest.

Wanna compare them to American or German tanks then?

44 minutes ago, Taeblamees said:

No weaknesses and only having to shoot at lower plate? Mate, you have M829A1 round in M1A2. Even with regular M829 you can pen 2A6 hull basically anywhere.

A 2A5 can pen you about as reliably with DM33.

The UFP on the 2a5/6 is very inconsistent forcing you to aim for the lfp. Ah yes the A1 that does basically nothing but post pen dmg over the normal M829.

46 minutes ago, Taeblamees said:

A 2A5 can pen you about as reliably with DM33.

 

I know the 2a5 can pen my M1a1 any where.

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3 hours ago, senzawa said:

Ignoring the fact that only a small frontal portion actually stops DM33 and that if you're exposing the UFP either way, you're exposing the driver port, are we?

A shot through the driver port weakspot will miss the ammo and unlikely to knock the CR2 out.

A shot slightly below the driver port will detonate ammo and instant kill a CR2. Don't tell me you are still sniping weakspot with DM53.:lol2:

 

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Yes, doesn't change the fact it's still a better vehicle that outclasses the 2A6.

Except it doesn't, worse at long-range engagement, DM33 not reliable to pen an angled top tier Soviet tank.

There is no point downplaying the OPness of Leopard 2A6. Being the best and second-best doesn't matter as long as both are on the same team.

 

gERMaNy sUFfooRs lEo2a6 nOT bESt tOnk :crying:

Edited by Loongsheep
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7 hours ago, Kocant12 said:

Where is Russia? Also why do people struggle against American heavies?

Because they are exceptionally trolly?

Both Tiger 2s can be oneshotted through the turret, killing all crew or setting off the ammo.

 

Shooting a T29 in the UFP is only possible at very close range where there is no track addon and even then you have a big chance of funky damage model nonsense where only the two in the hull die.

The turret will either eat your shot with MGs, nonpen if you hit the overlapping armor or only get about 2 crew if you use the 88.

Hitting the ammo rack is quite rare for me at least.

The small optics weakspot was removed and the smalle one above the mantlet is gone due to volumetric shells.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Loongsheep said:

A shot through the driver port weakspot will miss the ammo and unlikely to knock the CR2 out.

Ammo detonation isn't the only means of killing a CR2.

 

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A shot slightly below the driver port will detonate ammo and instant kill a CR2. Don't tell me you are still sniping weakspot with DM53.:lol2:

Uh, yes, I am, it's common sense that DM53 ain't a God-killing round but well...  would a person who owns neither the 122 nor 2A6 even know this... lol

unknown.png

 

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Except it doesn't, worse at long-range engagement, DM33 not reliable to pen an angled top tier Soviet tank.

So we're going to ignore how only about 0.18 of Strv 122s frontal profile is a viable killing spot in comparison to 2A6s 0.77 and just stick to "ooga booga DM53", dude, listen, i know you're a britbong but this is beyond laughable at this point.

 

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There is no point downplaying the OPness of Leopard 2A6. Being the best and second-best doesn't matter as long as both are on the same team.

Point me to where I was downplaying the suposed "OPness" (it ain't OP but whatever), like, i'm not sure what your thought-process is, but i'm not the only one who think Strv 122 is better than the 2A6 points at Necrons.

 

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gERMaNy sUFfooRs lEo2a6 nOT bESt tOnk :crying:

Aight, now that you've said this, you lost all the creditability you still had left.

Edited by senzawa
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1 hour ago, senzawa said:

Ammo detonation isn't the only means of killing a CR2.

DM53 is far superior to DM33 at killing CR2, regardless through destroying ammo rack or crew.

 

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Uh, yes, I am, it's common sense that DM53 ain't a God-killing round but well...  would a person who owns neither the 122 nor 2A6 even know this... lol

Yeah, because L27A1 doesn't exist such that people NOT owning 122 or 2A6 wouldn't know a round with more pen = better ?

:curious:

 

 

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but i'm not the only one who think Strv 122 is better than the 2A6 points at Necrons.

Because Nercons always rate survivability over others, as his claim of Abrams >>>> all other MBT over the past 2 years.

But that is him and he doesn't seem to bother joining us on this discussion.

 

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Aight, now that you've said this, you lost all the creditability you still had left.

As if someone having 897 forum points over 1385 posts has any to start with.:lol2:

Look at the score/post ratio of your dear Nercons lol.

Edited by Loongsheep
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10 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

DM53 is far superior to DM33 at killing CR2, regardless through destroying ammo rack or crew.

Oh, is that why Strv 122s are doing better and outside of few, very narrow minded individuals are viewed as better MBTs despite having some of the worst APFSDS rounds at top tier as of now, I dunno mate, keep living in your fairy land.

 

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Yeah, because L27A1 doesn't exist such that people NOT owning 122 or 2A6 wouldn't know a round with more pen = better ?

:curious:

I guess that's why Strv 122 is STILL doing better in both K/D and WR despite playing 80% of matches against the 2A6s 

thumb_old-spanish-man-laughing-memes-50182963.png

 

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Because Nercons always rate survivability over others, as his claim of Abrams >>>> all other MBT over the past 2 years.

What is this BS you're speaking of here, he hasn't been calling Abrams a better tank since 2A5s introduction despite 2A5s "survivability" being worse.

 

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But that is him and he doesn't seem to bother discussing this post.

If he's right, why'd he bother discussing it with people who play 1 nation at best?

 

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As if someone having 897 forum points over 1385 posts has any to start with.:lol2:

Ah yes, because the amount of forum points i posses matters more than my gameplay experience with both vehicles. Pixels matter boyyys!

Edited by senzawa
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19 minutes ago, senzawa said:

Oh, is that why Strv 122s are doing better and outside of few, very narrow minded individuals are viewed as better MBTs despite having some of the worst APFSDS rounds at top tier as of now, I dunno mate, keep living in your fairy land.

DM33 isn't even "among the worst" APFSDS at top tier. It is far better than the 3BM42 and marginally better than the L26.

 

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I guess that's why Strv 122 is STILL doing better in both K/D and WR despite playing 80% of matches against the 2A6s 

Maybe because Sweden is a minor tree played by more experienced players on average, just like any other tree?

 

Also your claim of Strv 122 "doing better in both K/D and WR" and "playing 80% of matches against the 2A6" is statistically impossible.

Leopard 2A6 has 70%+ win rate, the other side is impossible to be higher.

Of course you can just claim Thunderskill is unreliable, but there goes your support lol.:curious:

 

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What is this BS you're speaking of here, he hasn't been calling Abrams a better tank since 2A5s introduction despite 2A5s "survivability" being worse.

Exactly.

Because 2A5 has better firepower and turret armor over Abrams! Just like Leopard 2A6 over others!

 

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Ah yes, because the amount of forum points i posses matters more than my gameplay experience with both vehicles. Pixels matter boyyys!

Considering how most people do not use their vehicles to their full potential even at top tier, of course. The point signifies the knowledge and understanding to the game, vehicle performance and history and more. Not saying having negative point is always bad, but all the "upstanding" members here have positive point.

 

Knowing "how to win" is one thing, knowing "how to have fun" is another.

I have great fun at several BRs despite team losing more than winning. What about you?

Edited by Loongsheep
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18 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

DM33 isn't even "among the worst" APFSDS at top tier. It is far better than the 3BM42 and marginally better than the L26.

That's... literally what "among the worst" means, DM33 is either the 3rd or 4th worst APFSDS at top tier as of now.

 

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Maybe because Sweden is a minor tree played by more experienced players on average, just like any other tree?

How does that change the way vehicles perform, like, I got both, i played both for 100+ matches so I think I have more leverage when it comes to talking about how they perform, but IDK, if we want, we can just so get SPANISH_AVENGER here so he can talk about them too, i'm suuuureee he will support you.

 

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Also your claim of Strv 122 "doing better in both K/D and WR" and "playing 80% of matches against the 2A6" is statistically impossible.

Leopard 2A6 has 70%+ win rate, the other side is impossible to be higher.

Well, no, it isn't all that impossible, i may have gotten a bit overzaelous saying 80% of matches and in fact there are less but what remains is that Strv 122 play the significant majority of their matches on the Allied side and still manage to rock up very impressive K/D and WR despite all that which simply support my point of Strv 122 being a better MBT.

 

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Because 2A5 has better firepower and turret armor over Abrams! Just like Leopard 2A6 over others!

Thank you for deconstructing your own argument for me.

 

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Considering how most people do not use their vehicles to their full potential even at top tier, of course. The point signifies the knowledge and understanding to the game, vehicle performance and history and more. Not saying having negative point is always bad, but all the "upstanding" members here have positive point.

Rather those upstanding member got to be here earlier than the likes of me and therefore their opinions are valued more than mine, if Necron came here and said the same things as I did, absolutely no one would argue with him, it also plays right into my hands, you can't tell me that majority of their points do not come from curbing down on notable boos of certain nations, i've seen many "upstanding" member do that and that's where they get the majority of their points from.

Nontheless, it doesn't really matter how many positivie points you have for as long as you're right, even if I had negative points (dunno if that's even possible) i would still be in the right here.

 

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Knowing "how to win" is one thing, knowing "how to have fun" is another.

I have great fun at several BRs despite team losing more than winning. What about you?

Depends on your definition of having fun, i'm having fun when i know that my knowledge of how to win actually gets me the win but so will I have fun when i get stomped by other MBTs because I know i got outplayed.by people with more overall game experience.

 

Also, was that a reference to "My ancestor are smiling at me Imperial. What about you?"

Edited by senzawa
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2 hours ago, senzawa said:

That's... literally what "among the worst" means, DM33 is either the 3rd or 4th worst APFSDS at top tier as of now.

There are only about 10 "top tier" APFSDS in total.

And many "good" ones are only used by 1-2 tanks in minor trees, most tanks are firing DM33, M829 and 3BM42.

DM33 is the very definition of middle of the ground.

 

2 hours ago, senzawa said:

Well, no, it isn't all that impossible, i may have gotten a bit overzaelous saying 80% of matches and in fact there are less but what remains is that Strv 122 play the significant majority of their matches on the Allied side and still manage to rock up very impressive K/D and WR despite all that which simply support my point of Strv 122 being a better MBT.

Most Swedish top tier players I meet are pretty skilled.

My team has been destroyed by well hidden CV9040 from the flanks multiple times, dodging all our hits. You do not see the same with BMP-2M - they just rush you.

 

2 hours ago, senzawa said:

Nontheless, it doesn't really matter how many positivie points you have for as long as you're right, even if I had negative points (dunno if that's even possible) i would still be in the right here.

There is no negative point, you only gain them from upvotes.

Generally, people do that when you are being helpful from providing information and tips and stuff.

 

2 hours ago, senzawa said:

Depends on your definition of having fun, i'm having fun when i know that my knowledge of how to win actually gets me the win but so will I have fun when i get stomped by other MBTs because I know i got outplayed.by people with more overall game experience.

I do 9.0 and overall get positive K/D while spading my (objectively) overtiered VFM.5.

Yes we lose most rounds once the G.91s pop up, but I get my RP and SL so good game.

 

2 hours ago, senzawa said:

Also, was that a reference to "My ancestor are smiling at me Imperial. What about you?"

I don't get that reference lol. First time to hear that.

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42 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

There are only about 10 "top tier" APFSDS in total.

And many "good" ones are only used by 1-2 tanks in minor trees, most tanks are firing DM33, M829 and 3BM42.

DM33 is the very definition of middle of the ground.

DM53  > M322 > M829A1 > DM43 > that china one > 3BM-42M > L27 > M829 > DM33 > L26 > BM-42

 

More than "10" in fact and DM33 scores pretty low on the list, it's certiainly not the "middle ground" round it was before New Power anymore.

 

42 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Most Swedish top tier players I meet are pretty skilled.

Depends, a lot of Swedish players that I met are generally bad and complain about the price instead of actually playing, my ex-friend used to complain 24/7 about the 122, that it should fire M322 and not this darn bad DM33.

 

42 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

My team has been destroyed by well hidden CV9040 from the flanks multiple times, dodging all our hits. You do not see the same with BMP-2M - they just rush you.

I mean, i've done that in a BMP-2M so i guess it just depends.

 

42 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

There is no negative point, you only gain them from upvotes.

Generally, people do that when you are being helpful from providing information and tips and stuff.

Ahh yes, being helpful... gets blasted with weird emotes every single time i try to write something on RU or japan forums. :lol2:

 

42 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

I do 9.0 and overall get positive K/D while spading my (objectively) overtiered VFM.5.

Yes we lose most rounds once the G.91s pop up, but I get my RP and SL so good game.

I've been enjoying air RB a lot more recently honestly, ground RB feels oversaturated to me.

 

42 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

 

I don't get that reference lol. First time to hear that.

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10 minutes ago, senzawa said:

I've been enjoying air RB a lot more recently honestly

You masochist

 

Oh wait you have a Saab 105 haha

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Despite all the fighting i find this thread actually wholesome unlike the one section where your replies can get scrubed just because they don like it or it actually makes a point.....

 

*Cough* nation with 5 sec autoloader mbt  *cough"

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, senzawa said:

I've been enjoying air RB a lot more recently honestly, ground RB feels oversaturated to me.

Air RB is in general more enjoyable for sure.

I didn't really get seriously into it until last Autumn (I stopped at Lightning). Now I have nearly got whole British tree unlocked.

 

Even with underdogs like Jaguar, you can kill AI targets and help your team when opportunity shows up.

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Winning with a tank like Strv122A/B is far easier than winning with a Leopard 2A6, because, unlike the Strv, the tank itself is not your winning condition, your entire lineup and the fact that now, many people playing T-80U & Co. are fundamentally idiotic players, are your winning conditions, if you are a good player.
Upon assessing the tanks mentioned above : the Leopard 2A6 itself is not a free win tank, you can punish it the same way you punished 2A5 all past year, unlike the Strv122A/B, the Leopard can be easily dispatched of, by hitting under its breech (it will nuke all the crew because of some line of coding that creates additional spalling from the breech), or by hitting literally everywhere on its hull, that is made of cardboard for most 120/125 mms rounds.


If all you got is an excuse such as ULQ, or "DM 53 is op", then you probably are just looking for some reason to blame something else, other than the way you position yourself on the map, and play the match. Something like ULQ does not aim for you, does not move the tank for you and such, and I might add that camping at the edge of the map or behind your spawn does not make you win the game.
 

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2 minutes ago, nOx_ said:

by hitting under its breech

Due to its small size, the breach isn't easy to hit 

 

3 minutes ago, nOx_ said:

you can punish it the same way you punished 2A5 all past year, unlike the Strv122A/B,

The Strv122 is just a leo 2a5 with a more reliable upper front plate and the mantlet and lfp is still weak, so yes I can punish it the same way.

4 minutes ago, nOx_ said:

If all you got is an excuse such as ULQ

ULQ removes bushes and trees at far-ish ranges making it easier to hit a target at a far-ish range.

6 minutes ago, nOx_ said:

hitting literally everywhere on its hull, that is made of cardboard for most 120/125 mms rounds

Again, hitting the ufp of 2a5/6 is unreliable whether is bounces or not, which is why i prefer the lfp.

7 minutes ago, nOx_ said:

if you are a good player.

Im a lvl 93 that has grinded 2 nations to top tier. Most leo 2a5/6 players seem to be lvl 100's that have been playing the game for 7 years and have grinded most/every nation to top tier. How the hell am I suppose to compete with them????

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35 minutes ago, Kocant12 said:

Due to its small size, the breach isn't easy to hit 

While its not that easy to hit the results of hitting it are catastrophic more often than not

 

35 minutes ago, Kocant12 said:

just a leo 2a5 with a more reliable upper front plate

Well, yeah, having 300mm more armor on ufp is totally not important at all

 

35 minutes ago, Kocant12 said:

ULQ removes bushes and trees at far-ish ranges making it easier to hit a target at a far-ish range.

Yeah but its only really useful for xxxx who play the wrong way

 

35 minutes ago, Kocant12 said:

hitting the ufp of 2a5/6 is unreliable

Only if you got garbo rounds like l26 or 3bm42

 

35 minutes ago, Kocant12 said:

have been playing the game for 7 years

It literally doesnt matter for how long they've been playing, like good 80-90% of them are terribad and i kill them all the time despite of being relatively new 

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1 hour ago, Ymir2k said:

While its not that easy to hit the results of hitting it are catastrophic more often than not

Hitting the breach of most tanks are catastrophic.

1 hour ago, Ymir2k said:

Well, yeah, having 300mm more armor on ufp is totally not important at all

I never said its not important, it just makes it more reliable.

1 hour ago, Ymir2k said:

Only if you got garbo rounds like l26 or 3bm42

I'm using M829

1 hour ago, Ymir2k said:

It literally doesnt matter for how long they've been playing, like good 80-90% of them are terribad and i kill them all the time despite of being relatively new 

The longer you play the more experience you have in the game which makes you a better player. And good for you for being better than most 2a5/6 users, im just an average player.

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I think the main problem is the rounds vs the armour.

 

Example Germany vs Brits okay.

 

If you play british, Challenger 2, Vickers etc...until you get the bestestests end of the line APFSDS you can't even pen the UFP on a Leo. So you start grinding your Chally...finally you get APFSDS and you think wee i'm good, no you aren't...you still need to try to aim at the tiny breach on a 2A5 or 2A6..while they more or less point end click you even with their stock HEATFS...not to mention by the time you move 10 meters from the spawn in your Chally the Leos already ran around the map and behind your spawn.

 

Challenger vs 2A5

Challenger front 80% weakspot 20% strong

2A5 front 80% strong 20% weakspot

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2 hours ago, MTom said:

Challenger vs 2A5

I assume this means Challanger 2 vs Leopard 2A5/6

 

2 hours ago, MTom said:

Challenger front 80% weakspot 20% strong

Bruh?

 

2 hours ago, MTom said:

2A5 front 80% strong 20% weakspot

You must be completely inept at math.

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