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You can't win against German top tier


6 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

Leopard 2 series from Leopard 2A4 on has consistently superior armor

 

IPM1 objectively has superior armour.

 

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and firepower than Abrams derivatives.

 

IPM1 has on-par firepower to the Leopard 2A4.

It's a minor trade-off in penetration with a decent trade-off in reload rate.

 

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DM53 is only one factor that leads to German over-powerness at top tier.

 

Just like in 1.81 days, German teams get roflstomped by some dedicated helicopter spam (KA-50 / KA-52 in this case) early on.

Gemans teams' collective brain cells still can't figure out to spawn a single SPAA at the start, even when requested to do so.

 

It's pretty pointless trying to play the Leopard 2A6 at the moment, it's just worthless as a vehicle against helicopters, as that is all you face.

 

 

Edited by Necrons31467
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6 minutes ago, croatiankiller said:

I told you the same weakspots.Turret is not one of them.Shoot them in their WEAKSPOTS like lower glacis or under barrel you will get the same result with DM13 and DM53.If it's hard for you to read simple sentence well yeah I'm sorry but then you need help.

 

you said you have to shoot the same weakspots, I showed that is clearly not the case

Edited by [email protected]
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1 minute ago, croatiankiller said:

It's pointless to go further when you cannot read or understand things or you interpret in your own twisted mind.

 

"with DM63, you have to shoot the same weakpots as DM13"

"No you don't *shows proof"

"dude it's pointless arguing with you, you don't read things"

 

:good:

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16 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

It's pretty pointless trying to play the Leopard 2A6 at the moment, it's just worthless as a vehicle against helicopters, as that is all you face

I never see heli's. I only see G91's and Leopards camping the spawn

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1 minute ago, [email protected] said:

 

"with DM63, you have to shoot the same weakpots as DM13"

"No you don't *shows proof"

"dude it's pointless arguing with you, you don't read things"

 

:good:

You plainly have no idea what weakspot is or again you interpret in your own twisted mind.Shoot same weakspots I shown you and you will get the same result.Turret is not a WEAKSPOT.

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4 minutes ago, croatiankiller said:

You plainly have no idea what weakspot is or again you interpret in your own twisted mind.Shoot same weakspots I shown you and you will get the same result.Turret is not a WEAKSPOT.

 

why would you have to shoot weakspots when you can pen the entire turret?

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7 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

 

why would you have to shoot weakspots when you can pen the entire turret?

It can magically non-pen if you hit 2 plates what happens on leclerc or something else happens that didn't allow you to pen that part of the tank.Relying on probability of possible penetration and 100% sure penetration is a difference between life and death.If you miss you are dead but if you hit well you can finish it off. 

Edited by croatiankiller
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12 minutes ago, croatiankiller said:

You plainly have no idea what weakspot is or again you interpret in your own twisted mind.Shoot same weakspots I shown you and you will get the same result.Turret is not a WEAKSPOT.

I think you need a relook of the pic he posted. He does not need the weakspot

 

DM53 is penetrating places where DM13 cant.

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10 hours ago, NoblemanSwerve said:

Raymond already mentioned it, but at least regarding M829A4 I somewhat suspect that the secret sauce for dealing with hard-kill APS systems is the data-link. Would imagine the dart has a means to perhaps fire a dummy projectile ahead of it as it nears the tank, prematurely setting off the APS. 

 

Yup, I think that as well. In fact, in an ARL paper on novel penetrator designs back in the early 2000s, the below concept was shown. Coincidence? I think not! 

 

Spoiler

Precursor.PNG.0c0d3a47da986802ec15e7adf4

 

10 hours ago, NoblemanSwerve said:

Though I am interested in the U.S getting its hands on Duplot, you know around what year that was?

 

Appears to be early 2018. So it while Duplet was not part of the M829A4 development process likely, it certainly has been tested against it. US Army has also had T-84 tanks with Nozh ERA and Drozd APS since the early 2000s.

https://defence-blog.com/news/army/us-reaches-deal-ukraine-supply-one-oplot-main-battle-tank.html

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4 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

 

It's pretty pointless trying to play the Leopard 2A6 at the moment, it's just worthless as a vehicle against helicopters, as that is all you face.

 

and even when u take out the heli advantage the enemy still dose win often

Spoiler

CuMxKQB.jpeg

 

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36 minutes ago, _Iluminas_ said:

and even when u take out the heli advantage the enemy still dose win often

Hide contents

 

If google translate is right Sieg = Victory

 

You won 7 out of 12 games which means you won 58% of the games.

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25 minutes ago, Kocant12 said:

If google translate is right Sieg = Victory

 

You won 7 out of 12 games which means you won 58% of the games.

yes and?

maybe its a language barrier thing want i meant that even if u take out the Heli part as i was spawning FlaRakRad the whole time

germany still loses and not every 10th game but more often

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3 hours ago, _Iluminas_ said:

and even when u take out the heli advantage the enemy still dose win often

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I didn't say you don't win the battles.

 

I said it's pointless playing the Leopard 2A6, you spawn, get curbstomped by four KA-50/52's, then leave the match.

You can still win it afterwards, but I don't care at that point.

 

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10 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

 

It's pretty pointless trying to play the Leopard 2A6 at the moment, it's just worthless as a vehicle against helicopters, as that is all you face.

 

Been working on spading my type 93 using my 10.7 lineup. I can count the number of times out of the 81 games so far that I get a chance to even shoot at first spawn helis on two hands, and I virtually ALWAYS face soviets as its US/UK/japan vs all or GERM/ITALY/japan vs all. Sometimes I get nato vs pact but its rare. I'm usually pretty on board with most of the stuff you argue with (and no hate, but you try and argue with literally everyone, lets be honest here). This is a ridiculous mindset. Pretty pointless to play the 2a6 because of helis? Welcome to literally every mbt, hell, top tier vehicle other than autocannon IFVs. What makes the 2a6 worse against helis compared to the type 90? The leclerc? The strv 122? The challenger 2f? Other than the M1A2 who gets a .50 and proxy heat (which still needs to get barrel on target, and if they come in that low any mbt can kill them.) literally every mbt suffers the same if not worse.

 

I would sympathize more with people saying "It's pretty pointless trying to play the X mbt against the 2a6 at the moment" than what you just posted.

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10 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

IPM1 objectively has superior armour.

 

13 hours ago, senzawa said:

Yea no, not the 2A4, its armour is considerably inferior to M1IP and more on par with the standard M1(105).

The turret armor of IPM1 is slightly thicker but covers less area, while the main array of the Leopard 2A4 continues about half way on the turret side.

 

So when one of them is hull-down, it is easier to penetrate the angled side turret of a IPM1 when it isn't pointing at you, while it is harder to do so to Leopard 2A4. Leo 2 was designed with up to 60 degree frontal protection in mind, its hull also has composite from skirt that Abrams and Challengers (except 2F) lack.

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16 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

The turret armor of IPM1 is slightly thicker but covers less area, while the main array of the Leopard 2A4 continues about half way on the turret side.

2A4s turret protection also decreases when you do that.

 

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So when one of them is hull-down

Lets not forget about the much bigger mantlet that the 2A4 sports.

 

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 it is easier to penetrate the angled side turret of a IPM1

Well yes, but then you have to remember how 2A4 trades hull armour that cannot stop much even in downtiers for slightly better turret protection.

 

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Leo 2 was designed with up to 60 degree frontal protection in mind, its hull also has composite from skirt that Abrams

All M1s have 65mm composite side-skirts which while are not as "good" as 2A4s onwards, they still give decent angled protection. However not that it matters really, if you angle in western MBTs you might as well be dead.

Edited by senzawa
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4 minutes ago, senzawa said:

2A4s turret protection also decreases when you do that.

Still 350mm+ within 60 degree, compared to ~250mm of IPM1 Abrams.

 

4 minutes ago, senzawa said:

Lets not forget about the much bigger mantlet that the 2A4 sports.

Mantlet pen gets you broken breech and 1-2 crew dead, a round through angled side of turret will usually kill your entire turret crew and die.

 

4 minutes ago, senzawa said:

Well yes, but then you have to remember how 2A4 trades hull armour that cannot stop much even in downtiers for slightly better turret protection.

Neither hull stops main gun threats they face.

But the Leo 2 side skirt can actually eat HEAT-FS, especially fired from ATGM vehicle or helicopter.

 

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5 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Still 350mm+ within 60 degree, compared to ~250mm of IPM1 Abrams.

I will quote you here; "Neither stops main gun threats they face."

 

5 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Mantlet pen gets you broken breech and 1-2 crew dead, a round through angled side of turret will usually kill your entire turret crew and die.

So an excuse for the 2A4 having a much bigger and easier to hit mantlet?

 

5 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Neither hull stops main gun threats they face.

False. In downtiers M1IP and M1(105) can stop a lot of rounds and anything short of DM33 (which can only penetrate at very close distances) and DM63 is simply incapable of dealing with their armour bar the weakspots.

 

5 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

But the Leo 2 side skirt can actually eat HEAT-FS, especially fired from ATGM vehicle or helicopter.

So how many people are actually bothering with HEAT-FS at 10.0?

Nevertheless, M1 also stops HEAT-FS, even their sides, yes, played them, has happened to me multiple times.

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5 minutes ago, senzawa said:

I will quote you here; "Neither stops main gun threats they face."

Neither stops threats from main gun (105-125mm direct fire cannon).

They still work against auto-cannon, missiles and rockets, which are common.

 

5 minutes ago, senzawa said:

So an excuse for the 2A4 having a much bigger and easier to hit mantlet?

It is not that big of a deal these days, just like we do not complain about... you know, way bigger mantlet on Challenger 2 and Leclerc than Leopard 2A5/6 anymore.

 

5 minutes ago, senzawa said:

False. In downtiers M1IP and M1(105) can stop a lot of rounds and anything short of DM33 (which can only penetrate at very close distances) and DM63 is simply incapable of dealing with their armour bar the weakspots.

Like 10.0-10.3 actually gets downtiers instead of getting dragged to popular 10.7 matches.:curious:

 

5 minutes ago, senzawa said:

So how many people are actually bothering with HEAT-FS at 10.0?

CE hullbreak bro, I load my first round with HEAT too. Kills wheelie and lightie boi instantly.

 

5 minutes ago, senzawa said:

Nevertheless, M1 also stops HEAT-FS, even their sides, yes, played them, has happened to me multiple times.

Only at high angle. Otherwise it is ghost shell.

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19 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Neither stops threats from main gun (105-125mm direct fire cannon).

They still work against auto-cannon, missiles and rockets, which are common.

And this is where you're wrong, M1 and M1IPs hulls stop 105mm projectiles up to DM33 and 120mm that are similar to DM13/23  :lol2:

 

19 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

It is not that big of a deal these days, just like we do not complain about... you know, way bigger mantlet on Challenger 2 and Leclerc than Leopard 2A5/6 anymore.

So because you're not complaining anymore about it means it's not a very obvious weakspot and a disadvantage at that?

 

19 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Lke 10.0-10.3 actually gets downtiers instead of getting dragged to popular 10.7 matches.:curious:

How else should I explain my near 70% WR in the M1IP then, of course they get downtiered, quite a lot even.

 

19 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

CE hullbreak bro, I load my first round with HEAT too. Kills wheelie and lightie boi instantly.

Once again, how many people are bothering themself with HEAT-FS at 10.0 knowing most of the things they face are MBTs?

Sure, i also have 2-4 HEAT-FS loaded at times, but I pretty much never use them unless i get a chance to use them, however, this still means little in the face of what I said, 2A4s side-skirts do not have enough protection to stop M830 or DM12 and furthermore, why would you aim at them in the first place.

 

19 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Only at high angle. Otherwise it is ghost shell.

Haha, no.

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20 minutes ago, senzawa said:

And this is where you're wrong, M1 and M1IPs hulls stop 105mm projectiles up to DM33 and 120mm that are similar to DM13/23 

I have no dog in this fight, but 120mm dm23+ and 105mm dm33 will pen the lfp and ufp (barring any bounces which of course go straight into the turret ring doing more damage) out to 1000 meters~ reliably. The only spot which can get iffy at that range is if you hit directly where both plates meet. But thats not exclusive to the m1.

Edited by TumblerSnapper
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14 minutes ago, senzawa said:

And this is where you're wrong, M1 and M1IPs hulls stop 105mm projectiles up to DM33 and 120mm that are similar to DM13/23  :lol2:

We are talking about the angled side hull towards the front.

Are we still on the same track? Because hitting front hull at such angle would not detonate ammo or kill any crew other than the driver, which is a waste of shot.

 

14 minutes ago, senzawa said:

So because you're not complaining anymore about it means it's not a very obvious weakspot and a disadvantage at that?

I am lost. German/Russian mains have been downplaying the disadvantage of huge mantlet weak spot of Leclerc and Challengers over last 2 years, yet suddenly it becomes relevant again?:crazy:

 

14 minutes ago, senzawa said:

How else should I explain my near 70% WR in the M1IP then, of course they get downtiered, quite a lot even.

W/R doesn't rate a single tank, K/D does.

But when K/D can be boosted by playing defensively like camping at the back and contribute nothing to the match.

 

14 minutes ago, senzawa said:

Once again, how many people are bothering themself with HEAT-FS at 10.0 knowing most of the things they face are MBTs?

I always carry 2-5 HEAT/HESH/HE regardless of BR.

I get killed by HEAT often when I use Warrior or Rooikat at top tier, so I assume people do use it.

 

14 minutes ago, senzawa said:

2A4s side-skirts do not have enough protection to stop M830 or DM12 and furthermore, why would you aim at them in the first place.

Does not seem to be the case from my observation.

Talking about the front side skirt within 60 degree angle, not directly from sides.

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I think the accurate observation and the solution to the disagreement would be that the M1IP has better frontal armor against common KE threats, but the 2a4 has better angled/side armor against common CE threats (and some KE). Against almost every round 10.0 and below the IPM1 has good armor on both hull and turret (though the UFP unfortunately helps rounds find the weakspot). Meanwhile the 2a4 is a step away from being made of paper with its only good armor being the turret cheeks on either side of the football field that is its mantlet.

 

Of the two I'd say the M1IP still pulls out ahead since I'd rather have the armor to face the enemy I know is in front of me rather than armor that may or may not come in handy if I'm flanked. That and KE threats more likely to take you out in an mbt.

Edited by Ariesv
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3 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

We are talking about the angled side hull towards the front.

We're talking about their entire armour profiles, you said so yourself that 2A4s armour is quote on quote "better".

 

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Are we still on the same track? Because hitting front hull at such angle would not detonate ammo or kill any crew other than the driver, which is a waste of shot.

Considering you went from mine and Necron's; "M1IPs armour is better" to "uh oh 2A4 angling better", aren't you a bit lost here?

 

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I am lost. German/Russian mains have been downplaying the disadvantage of huge mantlet weak spot of Leclerc and Challengers over last 2 years, yet suddenly it becomes relevant again?:crazy:

So, me = German/Russian mains all of sudden?

 

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W/R doesn't rate a single tank, K/D does.

Better than in the 2A4 which says a lot.

 

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But when K/D can be boosted by playing defensively like camping at the back and contribute nothing to the match.

Yep, another excuse.

 

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I always carry 2-5 HEAT/HESH/HE regardless of BR.

Good for you.

 

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I get killed by HEAT often when I use Warrior or Rooikat at top tier, so I assume people do use it.

And I often live in my CV9040C because people at 10.0+ rarely ever take HEAT-FS

 

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Does not seem to be the case from my observation.

What?

 

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Talking about the front side skirt within 60 degree angle, not directly from sides.

Both will stop HEAT-FS.

 

3 hours ago, TumblerSnapper said:

I have no dog in this fight, but 120mm dm23+ and 105mm dm33 will pen the lfp and ufp (barring any bounces which of course go straight into the turret ring doing more damage) out to 1000 meters~ reliably. The only spot which can get iffy at that range is if you hit directly where both plates meet. But thats not exclusive to the m1.

No, not really actually, anything less than 410mm of pen (DM23 is an exception as it's on the edge of that number but it sometimes too fails to penetrate the LFP) has problems with M1 and M1IPs LFPs even at very close ranges.

Edited by senzawa
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