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Why do players have no idea of the MM??


OK, so you get a 6.0 game.

Both sides are made up of vehicles 5.0-6.0

Players on my side think it is unfair, because they face a 6.0 tank.

We have 6.0 tanks.

We have similar numbers of low and high BR to the enemy.

Apparently the game is unfair because the 5.0 has to face a 6.0, ignoring the fact there are players with all sorts of BRs between these two.

This friendly team also think I'm an idiot because I am using a 3.3 IS-1 and T-34-85.  Yes, that just happened....

OK, we get unfair matches to a degree, but how can someone at 5.0 still have no clue what the MM is about and how because you are up-tiered does not mean the whole team is?

This is why WT is going down hill, players are a really not very clever.

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9 minutes ago, MadDaishi said:

why do they not understand?   'cos everyone wants to be high tier ....

 


No, they aren't asking to be higher, they don't understand the MM which has been same from 1.0.

Lower BR tanks can kill higher, especially when its a weak Bulldog.... They don't understand the MM....

If you can't kill a tank 1.0+ then how the heck did people get to 5.0?

Edited by Deranger79
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20 minutes ago, Deranger79 said:




If you can't kill a tank 1.0+ then how the heck did people get to 5.0?

 money?!

keep in mind everyone wants to play an iconic tank like a Tiger oder Pershing or whatever they find cool

they don't care about MM, they want their dream tank, drem plae, drem ship or dream helicopter and play with them...

MM is for this type of player irrelevant, and they will complain about everything they don't want to understand or if the enemy is too strong for them or the map does not fit for them...that's normal....

 

MadDaishi

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Many players have no idea how BR works - answered a guy who said hew played a few years ago and didn't understand how he faces tanks 1.0 higher now - told him it hadn't changed...   

 

I dont' play FPS games - but I wonder if a lot of people here have done so and just aren't used to having different equipment like is on here??

 

Just another reason why the whole BR system is borked IMO - chronological match making with differing costs for effectiveness would be simple!

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Just now, Josephs_Piano said:

Many players have no idea how BR works - answered a guy who said hew played a few years ago and didn't understand how he faces tanks 1.0 higher now - told him it hadn't changed...   

 

I dont' play FPS games - but I wonder if a lot of people here have done so and just aren't used to having different equipment like is on here??

 

Just another reason why the whole BR system is borked IMO - chronological match making with differing costs for effectiveness would be simple!


But the balance of that system?  I think it boils down to queue times as usual.  Still, players are dumb.

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10 hours ago, Deranger79 said:


But the balance of that system?  I think it boils down to queue times as usual.  Still, players are dumb.

 

People play historical wargames all over hte world with counters and models and on computers and match king tigers against shermans regularly and without the sort of whining that goes on around here.

 

The simple one is points - a Tiger 2 costs 1000, a T34/76 costs, say, 250 - and each side has a maximum of 5000 points........ german players can stand in the queue as long as they want - there's be plenty of Sov's looking to get bragging rights for getting the kill...   and winning the game just because the KT's never get to cap a zone, keep getting tracked, their turrets turning towards the one they can see....   oops he's gone and I'm getting hit from somewhere else...  can't turn the turret fast enough......and sure they'll get plenty of kills..... but they'll lose vast numbers of games until they figure "Tiger syndrome" isn't actually much use:D

Edited by Josephs_Piano
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8 hours ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Here I was thinking you meant when you finally get into that 9.3 game as top dog and half of the 10 players on your team spawn in M56's and T92's...

 

Got a Suggestion to the Devs that should at least resolve your questioning. Though you have to spawn in to find out for sure, and they have to add it.

 

I'm on about reluctance of playing uptiers. Not on about the extremes (no balance), but the fact pretty much every game people have played (and highlight the decent matches) involves vehicles of every BR situation within them matches. Bottom tiered can still be number 1 etc etc.

 

The omg an uptier, though I agree can grind, is a few steps too defeatist and it becomes a self prophesising downer.

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On 28/12/2020 at 02:27, Deranger79 said:

The omg an uptier, though I agree can grind, is a few steps too defeatist and it becomes a self prophesising downer.

 

For some players I think its more of an "oh hey this is my 15th full uptier in a row" kind of situation. A decent player will try to make do with whatever he is given and you are right that tanks a full BR down can come out on top (really satisfying btw) but it does get frustrating after a while having to deal with it constantly. And its on a day by day basis it seems. I have days where I'm usually .3-.7 below and then I've had days where its almost exclusively full uptiers the whole time. Its the same as losing 15 matches in a row. Sure its just a game and sure you can get kills and do well for many lost matches but if you just lose and lose and lose again (especially to event spam or veteran clubber spam) it does eventually begin to grind your gears. 

 

On the other side of the coin, all you have to do to get to lvl 100 is play long enough, even if you don't know how to play. I probably really didn't begin to understand the game well until at least level 55 and even now I'm still trying to learn all the time. Its reasonable to assume that plenty of people just play to get to their dream vehicles without attempting to thoroughly learn the game as MadDaishi said. And Gaijin doesn't seem to be helping with allowing top tier premium to be purchased so people can just buy the *insert premium here* and hotrod their way to the top. 

Edited by Gearstick
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It is beyond me why Gaijin hides the BR range. It should be openly displayed in the spawn screen instead of trying to calculate it from spawn points. There also should be more visible rewards for uptier achievements without incentivizing bad lineups to maximize them. Now the rank does not matter and skill matters are drowned in the flood of other awards and only the best get the balancer or punisher. It does not necessarily require massive SL rewards, but simple visual and audio cues could make them a bigger deal for an inexperienced player.

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17 hours ago, Himish said:

It is beyond me why Gaijin hides the BR range. It should be openly displayed in the spawn screen instead of trying to calculate it from spawn points. There also should be more visible rewards for uptier achievements without

 

Well, this might help:

 

 

If not then nothing quite like a new Suggestion.

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4 hours ago, Himish said:

@Deranger79 that is a good suggestion. However, I would be a bit surprised if it was implemented as suggested.

 

The implementation is purely the same as AB,minus the vehicle names, just the highest BR in their lineup.

 

The coloured graphics item was just to show a battle, as I pulled it from another topic where someone was pointing out BR imbalances in a match (someone on European Canadians YouTube video of these Suggestions misread what the idea was so I had some input regarding it), if you happen to think that was part of the implementation.

 

Though I did not add the BR of the battle so it is worth writing up a Suggestion for that element only, since it is not actually part of mine (just someone mentions it in comments).

 

Or was there another issue?

Edited by Deranger79
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On 29/12/2020 at 23:28, Gearstick said:

For some players I think its more of an "oh hey this is my 15th full uptier in a row" kind of situation.

Many players insist on this, even if it is usually not true. And lots of impossible claims appear also like uptiers of more than +1 or that half the enemy team is +1BR tanks.

I can get game is not 100% fair...but it is not supposed to be. If we all got the same tank to play it would be BORING. Even if we got a +0BR spread game would quickly lose lots of fun due to repetitive gameplay.

I like to play differently depending if i am top tier (my actions suddenly matter a lot) or bottom tier (sneaking to get those tough targets...or trying to find opponents i can kill). It is fun to me...and i have no illusions that it is supposed to be fair. It is fair enough as both teams have roughly the same "weapons"...usually.

 

On 05/01/2021 at 13:36, Himish said:

It is beyond me why Gaijin hides the BR range.

I actually asked for this a few times...then i started reading more posts...and i am not so sure. I wonder how many players would just leave (or after first death) if this information was easy to find. It is worrying (to me) to see the number of players that dont care about the team they leave and dont see that it makes the game worse for everybody.

(TBH...there are ECONOMIC arguments for this that i can understand...but those do not apply on low and mid tier games)

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15 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

actually asked for this a few times...then i started reading more posts...and i am not so sure. I wonder how many players would just leave (or after first death) if this information was easy to find. It is worrying (to me) to see the number of players that dont care about the team they leave and dont see that it makes the game worse for everybody.

(TBH...there are ECONOMIC arguments for this that i can understand...but those do not apply on low and mid tier games)

True. The current saltiness in the playerbase might not be a good environment for it. The acceptance of the existing BR range needs to be there for it not being detrimental to business. The value that openess brings is faster learning to be a good player, since the info is readily available and not acquired through experience. The problem is that becoming a good player is not everyone's goal and not one that is incentivized, since skilled playerbase only has benefits for overall experience through better random team mates, but grinding goals are directly monetizable.

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When I played World of Tanks I was often aggravated when I was uptiered because the gap can be really big and you end up being almost useless against the big boys. But in War Thunder I just casualy notice some higher BR tanks during the battle and do not worry about it at all, because I know I can still kill any one of them.

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From what I get reading complaints about uptiers it seem to be a lot about expectation and lack of knowledge about the game. If they select a 5.0 vehicle they assume to face 5.0 enemies, not facing anything above. The same thing goes for facing planes in ground forces. "If I wanted to play against planes I would play air" is a typical response. Again, expectation and lack of knowledge.

 

The range from +/-1.0 BR from 5.0 is definetly queue times, since many vehicles within the ranges can in most case do something against each other or there would be BR changes to the problematic vehicle. With no ranges there would have to be compression and less BR's, I'd guess. Even 0.7 could potentially be problematic in some lower populated areas. Plus, I wonder if there's a degree of balance going on as well, both towards squads and single players, as a good player/squad in a full uptier against a worse squad/team of players in better vehicles logically is somewhat balanced. Skill versus slightly better machines.

 

Seeing BR's in RB could potentially be problematic. I believe I saw someone mentioning that people might leave more often if they realised how uptiered they sometimes would be. The experience I have with the RB players in this game is that they are some of the whiniest type of players I've ever seen, so my mind is also slightly going toward the same conclusion. But I bet more competent players could make something good come out of it as their knowledge around the opposing nations and BR range would tell them pretty much what they are up against with more precision.

Personally I woulnd't mind the change as I'm not too familiar with the spawn point costs and their relevance to uptiers/downtiers, so it would make that part of information more clear for people like myself. As my attitude is far from being a quitter there would be no risk of leaving an uptier for people similar to myself.

Edited by Arium
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1 hour ago, Arium said:

I'm not too familiar with the spawn point costs and their relevance to uptiers/downtiers

They have some variation and some have exceptional sp cost compared to their class, but in general:

SP cost bottom to top

Light: 60, 80, 100, 110

Medium: 100, 120, 130, 150

Heavy: 150, 170-180, 190-200, 220 (There is some finicky rounding happening with the cost of heavies, for example on 2nd spawn the top is rounded to 450)

TD: 90, 100, 120, 130

AA: 70, 80, 100, 110

I don't remember these all, but you pretty much can do by remembering top and bottom costs for a couple of usual classes in any lineup (for example medium and TD). If it is between them and closer to the other end, also the BR is closer to that end.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

OP you are incorrect. At some time which was the best MM in my opinion as an example between 5.0 to 6.0 only 4 players were allowed in 1 game with 6.0 MM, everything else was in between.

 

Now one team can get 10 6.0 vehicles and another can get 1 6.0. 

 

So yes the MM is broken and does need fixing.

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The only problem and thing I dont understand about MM is when I play a 7.7 vehicle and face 8.7, I expect at least the same amount of 8.7s on both teams. I have had countless matches where our teams are made up of 7.7s and maybe 3, 8.3s and 2 8.7s, while their whole team is made up of 8.3s and 8.7s. Not sure if thats intended but it really makes playing 7.7s not worth it to grind unless you have a premium and if you dont, then you are out of luck.

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Since OP think the MM is fine..please explain how is this fine.

 

Here's my lineup..i just got the T34-85..totally stock first battle with it..rest is as you can see 4.0 and below.

 

2021_01.25-19_11.thumb.png.31aa9d884dda4

 

And here's my first battle with the lineup 1 (one!) 5.7 vehicle.

 

2021_01.25-18_57.thumb.png.a1c2a065de9b0

 

I went up agains T92s, T34s CA Lorrain, etc...in my only full stock 5.7 tank.

 

That is how good the MM is.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, MTom said:

I went up agains T92s, T34s CA Lorrain, etc...in my only full stock 5.7 tank.

I dont get what you expected. it is written in the matchmaking rules that YOUR BEST VEHICLE defines your matchmaking. ALL OTHERS are just ignored. ONE 5.7 is exactly the same as a full 5.7 lineup.

If you use a 5.7 and several much inferior vehicles it is your mistake...i dont even get why you did that...Russia has LOTS of 5.3 vehicles that would do much better...

(Even if you were top tier at 5.7, all other vehicles you used would still be strongly outmatched)

 

The fact you got a 6.7 match is just bad luck...and i almost guess you waited for it so you could make your point.

The 5.7 vehicle you had is actually quite good...and i am guessing the enemy had several 5.7 and 6.0 vehicles you could fight...

Of course that once you lost the t34 then the MUCH LOWER BR vehicles you selected are almost useless...but like they say in the movies..."you dont bring a knife to a gunfight" ;)

 

 

I am right now using a rather unspaded IS2...and it works well with a 5.3 lineup...not so many uptiers actually, and the 5.3 tanks can hold their own vs 5.7s and 6.0s. King Tigers are an issue, i grant you that...but Russian teams also have their own 6.3s and 6.7s...

 

 

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6 hours ago, MTom said:

Here's my lineup..i just got the T34-85..totally stock first battle with it..rest is as you can see 4.0 and below.

Why on earth would you play with that kind of lineup? Research at least one additional 5.7 tank. If you insist playing with just one, at least get a backup for it and replace other sherman with the m10, which can handle the 5.7 armor of opponents better.

 

2 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Russia has LOTS of 5.3 vehicles that would do much better...

Chinese lineup in question.

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If the playerbase was clever then we would not get topic like Germany Suffers and at the same time Germany OP with the same Person arguing the Point, for example.

You also have to consider that a large part of the Playerbase is probably under 18 years old but that is just an assumption.

 

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