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Why is the standard game-mode like this?


Hello. I'm going to be very, very critical of war thunder in this post. So if you have a tendency to get emotional about people stating issues with the game, I suggest not reading this. With that out of the way, why are full real battles like this? 

 

The game mode in place when you hop into full real battles is absolutely baffling from a gameplay perspective. You're forced to use a specific aircraft, one of the lowest tier possible for the round, and earn points before you're given the opportunity to use an aircraft suitable for battle. My first issue, is that this aircraft may not even be OWNED by the player. And is often, if not always, a bomber. A bomber, which is usually GENERATIONS out of date by the tier of the battle, with a 100% untrained crew. Which you are then given NO RP for using. 

 

Its been like this for years, and everyone is okay with this??

 

People who are just getting into flight simulation, often go to war thunder first. Its a very shallow pseudo-sim focused on casual PVP combat. Thats great! It used to be the game I'd hop onto when I didn't want to dedicate an hour to flight planning in FSX. But think about how this game mode must look for a new player, who just purchased their new stick.

 

for arguments sake, lets say this person likes jets, and bought a premium one to start flying with. Great! 

 

They hop into full real battles, and are immediately forced into an aircraft they don't own. And its not a fighter, its a bomber. Much harder to fly, and significantly less fun. Okay, well, they want to fly the new plane they purchased, so they take off and head to one of the bombing markers on the map. 

 

They are then immediately blown out of the air with a growler from a mile out, and have to start over. rinse and repeat until this person has buyers remorse. And regrets thinking flying games were ever a good hobby to get into. 

 

Why? Why is the PRIMARY joystick focused game mode, absolutely BY DESIGN made to make the game unplayable to noobies? This game is primarily marketed as a sim, and its free to play. So this is ALWAYS going to be one of the first choices people make when giving flying games a shot. And I don't even want to think about how many people have been turned away from flight simulation, just because of this terrible game mode. 

 

Back in the beta, you chose a plane, chose full-real battles, then entered a dog fight with said plane. It was quick, easy, insanely addictive and most of all, FUN.

 

Being blown out of the sky at 20 feet altitude, by an F4 phantom, while flying an aircraft you don't own, can't upgrade, and have NO desire to fly. IS. NOT. FUN. 

 

I personally stopped playing full real battles some years ago for all of these reasons, and more. but I'm a sucker with a joystick and way too much time on my hands. I'm always going to come back. 

 

Your average fledgling flight enthusiast is not.  

 

You can update the graphics, models, ballistics and flight characteristics as much as you want, but spawning in a prop-powered bomber, and being killed immediately on the airfield by a player who's been in the game for HOURS ahead of you, in a jet. with missiles. will NEVER be fun. Literally anyone can see that. So why has this not changed? YEARS. Its been the default full real battles game mode for LITERALLY YEARS. 

 

WHY?? 

 

 

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I see it as you do... Preferred the old way: 1 spawn, 1 life,

 

The most thrilling match 1 ever played was one (US/Brits vs Japan) on Guadalcanal in my little Boomerang. Whole allied team got eaten alive by Zeros but i managed not only to be the last survivor for like 15 minutes in our team - but kill 9 out of the 10 enemies (1 crashed :( ) in my inferior plane and win the game. Most intense moment for me as pretty average player in War Thunder.

 

It must´ve been the golden days of WT back then. You got pretty nice matched teams in no time (had no issues with the restrictions to 2 daily nations), never experienced bomberspam unlike today, you meant something in the game and could change the tide (see example above). GREAT DAILY EVENTS (Fight of the swallows, ....).

 

Today there is the ground combined mode as last refugee, no way as good as the Air SB matches back then though (hate multiple spawn systems). Try to get into a match squadded with a buddy in EC: once one of you xxxx**** up the lineup youre in the game can´t spawn, have to quit and you´re locked out. (Seriously i believe Devs never played that mode, let alone squadded up). Terrible UI.

All in all not very newbiefriendly.

 

 

Bu somehow i´m still playing and enyoing it. :dntknw:

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7 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Hello. I'm going to be very, very critical of war thunder in this post

...a critical post in SIM-subforum, now that´s fresh :)

So Im trying to help, not to defend:

7 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

They hop into full real battles

They need to know:

After selecting Simulator Battles, do not instantly click "Take part". First a room can be choosen in the "Room list" next to server seletion.

So you can choose between Operations and Enduring Confrontation mode.

 

7 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Being blown out of the sky at 20 feet altitude, by an F4 phantom, while flying an aircraft you don't own, can't upgrade, and have NO desire to fly. IS. NOT. FUN.

This can easily be avoided by bringing up a at least one additional, player owned plane in the lineup which does not exceed the minimal battle rating in the according bracket.

Here´s a fresh topic about lineup suggestions for EC 6 and some general remarks about the poor state of exactly that stage:

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/509512-looking-for-80-us-lineup-for-ec/

 

Maybe that helps a bit?

Edited by Floringer
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9 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Its been like this for years, and everyone is okay with this??

Are you talking about premium aircraft? I assume you do such as : Vautour/F-84, Any Soviet premium jets/ IL-28 etc.

 

If that wasn't the case all battles would be highest premium vs premium matches and would intensify the P2W. You can alternatively use your premiums directly at operations without spawn points.

9 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

And its not a fighter, its a bomber. Much harder to fly, and significantly less fun

Yes its not fun if you are looking for fighter game play but its beyond easy to fly them. Just drop few bombs on a base and get enough spawn points I don't understand why this is such a dramatic issue. It takes about two minutes tops.

 

9 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Okay, well, they want to fly the new plane they purchased, so they take off and head to one of the bombing markers on the map. 

Again, operations. If you just want to play a specific plane, you can play it in operations. Enduring Confrontation, its in the name its supposed to be dynamic. It's not meant to jump into Yak-38 and trash anyone who are in a 8.0 subsonic.

 

9 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Why? Why is the PRIMARY joystick focused game mode, absolutely BY DESIGN made to make the game unplayable to noobies?

Aircraft are designed to fly with these controls and simulators are designed to simulate real world activities. Gaijin actually makes good effort to include M+K players. Some other titles have servers with a joystick only icon. Cars, ships, trains, aircraft, tanks etc. are not meant to be controlled with mouse and keyboard.

War Thunder is extremely newbie friendly, it handles your engine, it excludes weather conditions. It gives you one switch takeoffs, it doesn't force you to keep your manifold pressure at certain number  at certain height get best performance out of your aircraft or heat your engine up to a certain degree to keep it from seizing on take off. Hell it gives players to third person view and horizontal stabilized gyro guns even. I don't know what is so unfriendly about this. It is extremely easy to fly in War Thunder compared to any other title.

 

9 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Back in the beta, you chose a plane, chose full-real battles, then entered a dog fight with said plane. It was quick, easy, insanely addictive and most of all, FUN.

 

O.P.E.R.A.T.I.O.N.S

 

there was no EC in beta

 

If you do not want be blown out from the sky in something you don't even own, work on your tech tree and unlock some 8.0/9.0 fighters to support your premium top tier jet. I'm sorry but your whole post is about I bought premium and I use mouse+keyboard I expect special treatment. Sorry but that is how it sounds like to me, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

 

 

 

 

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For the sake of debate:
I think you are correct _Thrash_ given the actual state of the game, but I think you are wrong in assuming that OP is demanding anything special. War Thunder is in many ways an early access title, though it's up for the player to find out about this. There are things that are broken, incomplete or simply forgotten. Top tier sim is an example of this imo, it doesn't work well for a number of reasons. So someone that buys a premium jet hoping to use the stick in sim is in for a very bad experience - one can only hope this new player is made aware of the situation before the purchase. I don't think it's a problem for other tiers because the player can get into an EC1 match for free and discover what the game is about.

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40 minutes ago, Pinguim01 said:

one can only hope this new player is made aware of the situation before the purchase

I agree the information is a bit lost bit at the same time :

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Enduring_Confrontation#Spawn_Points

Takes a bit research.

 

WT is not a sim title, "War Thunder is a vehicular combat multiplayer video game developed and published by the Moscow video game developer studio Gaijin Entertainment" Most of the things are designed for AB and RB, SB is a niche add-on and unfortunately an ugly step sibling being neglected by Gaijin.

15 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

This game is primarily marketed as a sim,

So this is not accurate,

https://warthunder.com/en/game/about

 

There is no information about this saying that its primarily a sim title. Sb has its own set of rules, some work some don't.

49 minutes ago, Pinguim01 said:

OP is demanding anything special

Asking easier control options IS asking for special treatment, as bombers already have RB options in SB which should be removed asap. There is an alternative for this type of demand, RB...play RB in cockpit view as simple as that. SB is marked as hardcore difficulty, why should it have easy mode enabled in it just to make some people happy? bombers are already there to fill that purpose.

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20 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

I personally stopped playing full real battles some years ago for all of these reasons

Did you really never work out why you were being forced to fly some aircraft you didn’t have in your line up? 

 

20 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

Its been the default full real battles game mode for LITERALLY YEARS. 

So, plenty of time to find out that EC1-5 don’t suffer from the idiotic BR compression problems Gaijin refuse to address on EC6.  Nothing you say is a valid criticism of the mode itself.

 

20 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

WHY?? 

Because the mode itself is fine, provided you’ve worked out how to make a basic line up.

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22 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

WHY??

Because, outta 1500 games the WT is runnimg atm. it's only ~30 ECs and so the mode is very low on the priority list.

Don't play jets. Play WW2 props, which are much better done.

Edited by C0lander
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On 23/12/2020 at 07:40, ogragla said:

t must´ve been the golden days of WT back then. You got pretty nice matched teams in no time (had no issues with the restrictions to 2 daily nations), never experienced bomberspam unlike today, you meant something in the game and could change the tide (see example above). GREAT DAILY EVENTS (Fight of the swallows, ....).

 

This.

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Strongly disagree with OP. Some of your complaints seem to miss the point of EC, like being given a random plane if you don't have an 8.0. So what? The point of this game mode is to bring a LINEUP, and it's one of the fun things about it. As for the old game modes being better, I can't really comment since I wasn't around back then. However, it seems to me that the persistent nature of EC is a much better fit for a sim experience than match-making style sessions, which to me feels way more "gamey". 

 

EC has big problems, but is has more to do with specifics than the game mode itself: BR compression, free airfield strafing and small maps among others. 

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6 hours ago, Gubbkeps said:

Strongly disagree with OP. Some of your complaints seem to miss the point of EC...

the persistent nature of EC is a much better fit for a sim experience than match-making style sessions, which to me feels way more "gamey". 

 

EC has big problems, but is has more to do with specifics than the game mode itself: BR compression, free airfield strafing and small maps among others. 

Exactly so.  I can’t imagine the instant death-match mode would be any more fun if 8.0s were matched with 10.7s - probably much less fun actually, given 10.7s would be present from the start.

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The old way was indeed not better. I miss the simplicity of it sometimes but i'd never want to go back for a wide range of reasons.

1. Nation matchups were scheduled and LOCKED for that specific day. Don't want to fly USSR vs. Japan on friday? Too bad. wait till tomorrow and mabye a matchup you want will be up.
2. Rampant bomber abuse and gunshipping. In EC you can largely ignore bombers most of the time. You may lose the match overall but if you're after good fights vs fighters and don't care about winning this is irrelevant. In the old sim mode bombers can and would end games in 10 mins if you did not focus them which would often make 1 on 1 fighter fights either rare or impossible, and good luck if the enemy team only had bombers left and they were all sitting at 9km alt.
3. You were 100% at the mercy of the god awful BR system in this game and the rng matchmaker. Does your 3.0 plane from 1940 keep getting uptiered to fight 4.0 1943-44 planes? Too bad, there's more where that came from and nothing you can do about it.

For all it's issues EC was a massive improvement over the old system. A strict vehicle specific "historical" lineup like sim ground would be the only way you could improve EC, but i'm sure Gaijin would find a way to screw that up too just like they did with sim ground putting 1950s or 1980s vehicles in early ww2 lineups, or omitting very common and useful vehicles for one side like they did with the 190s for the longest time


 

Edited by Tamamonomae
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1 hour ago, Tamamonomae said:

A strict vehicle specific "historical" lineup like sim ground would be the only way you could improve EC

Head honcho Yudintsev answered to that in the last Q&A, said this game is about military vehicles vs military vehicles not about a certain war or period. So it will never happen...sadly.

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19 hours ago, _Thrash_ said:

Head honcho Yudintsev answered to that in the last Q&A, said this game is about military vehicles vs military vehicles not about a certain war or period. So it will never happen...sadly.

So a military vehicle from the 50s... or 80s, with tech from those periods, wouldn’t have significant general advantages over something from 1943, say?  Not to mention specific advantages in the role it was designed for?  Fools.

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Why BRs then? let's have all in one - it's still going to be military vehicles vs military vehicles, right?

 

I know - some one will come back saying  this is not going to be fun and games should be fun (mind - mostly for players, not just devs so in reality to some extend they should deliver what customer wants).

And on that note i'd like to remind those that we had Historical EC few times in a past. Games were FULL all the time. Literally it was impossible sometimes to join.

Even RB folks got it and enjoyed it immensely.

Will we get it again - probably not as it's not devs vision/plan.

Will it cost them? No, at least for some period of time. They will (and were for years) lose Sim players, but over all as long as AB and RB - this is not attempt to offence someone but to describe part of the cohort - 5 second attention span monkeys will have new stuff to grind there are chances that those players will but GE or premium time/vehicles then business is still rolling.

On top of that you can add, oh i don't know, Battle Pass so people will have to play a lot and might buy things for real money.

Oh,oh - and make changes to economy so premium time actually helps a lot!

 

Problem will start when there will be nothing else to add, and we are already approaching last batches of planes/tanks you can have, at least more or less, reliable datasheets for.

Then it's either star wars or abandon WT and try to develop new game to bring new players.

I pressume Enlisted will be in open beta as soon as WT is getting decommissioned.

 

P.S for those who will say that if i don't like the game i should leave - already done. But i have spent a lot of my time here and it's sad to see it's going sideways.

Also, i watch hubby sometimes getting his arse handed to him on a silver plate (fun fun fun)

 

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On 31/12/2020 at 10:18, _Thrash_ said:

Head honcho Yudintsev answered to that in the last Q&A, said this game is about military vehicles vs military vehicles not about a certain war or period. So it will never happen...sadly.


But that's pretty much what the original idea of sim ground was though, and it was like that with a while. Remember the Operation Barbarossa lineup where it was just Germany and USSR? early Pz.3/Pz.4's and Stugs vs early T-34s, 109Es and Fs vs Yak-1s, Laggs and I-16s? Was really great while it lasted.

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20 hours ago, Tamamonomae said:


But that's pretty much what the original idea of sim ground was though, and it was like that with a while. Remember the Operation Barbarossa lineup where it was just Germany and USSR? early Pz.3/Pz.4's and Stugs vs early T-34s, 109Es and Fs vs Yak-1s, Laggs and I-16s? Was really great while it lasted.

Yes.  While I wasn’t around in the very early days, I used to get regular reports from someone who has been around from the start (trying to tempt me away from WoT, I suspect).  So when they now say ‘sim was a “favour” to the players’ or ‘history doesn’t matter’, I smell BS.

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23 hours ago, Tamamonomae said:

Was really great while it lasted.

Yes but that was rather easy to balance, there are a lot of nations now and coming up with balanced events is rather difficult I assume

 

2 hours ago, Kernow1346 said:

trying to tempt me away from WoT, I suspect

That is sorta the saddest thing happened to WT actually, I used to smirk at WOT people when they were complaining about fantasy invincible premium tanks in WOT and premium ammo (ffs) specifically to destroy them. Which many of us would all agree that its "shady"

Unfortunate that WT is following the same model. Pouring bs FM premiums, helicopters or bs bombers to turn SB into meh at best, I left WT GF with the introduction of premium IS-7 and the HESH nerf that suspiciously came at the same time. Whole teams were formed by these OP premiums but its always the same story, its either helicopters, zombers, ridiculous AAM, insane ufo FM...I don't want to rant any further, its just sad that each update we are expecting more broken mechanics and bugs.

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4 minutes ago, _Thrash_ said:

Yes but that was rather easy to balance, there are a lot of nations now and coming up with balanced events is rather difficult I assume

 

That is sorta the saddest thing happened to WT actually, I used to smirk at WOT people when they were complaining about fantasy invincible premium tanks in WOT and premium ammo (ffs) specifically to destroy them. Which many of us would all agree that its "shady"

Unfortunate that WT is following the same model. Pouring bs FM premiums, helicopters or bs bombers to turn SB into meh at best, I left WT GF with the introduction of premium IS-7 and the HESH nerf that suspiciously came at the same time. Whole teams were formed by these OP premiums but its always the same story, its either helicopters, zombers, ridiculous AAM, insane ufo FM...I don't want to rant any further, its just sad that each update we are expecting more broken mechanics and bugs.

 

Powercreep is the magic word. Introduce every patch an OP-vehicle for the masses to buy it using GEs

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4 hours ago, _Thrash_ said:

That is sorta the saddest thing happened to WT actually, I used to smirk at WOT people when they were complaining about fantasy invincible premium tanks in WOT and premium ammo (ffs) specifically to destroy them. Which many of us would all agree that its "shady"

TBH I never had any issues with WoT regarding premium.  Sure, as many fantasy vehicles as WT, and most tanks could be upgraded with guns bigger than their RL equivalents, but I don’t recall any invincible premiums and most I remember were not the best in their tier.  ‘Gold’ ammo was stuff like APCR or APDS and had higher pen but did less damage, and once it became available for in-game currency anyone had access; it was regularly on sale for half price so you could stock up cheaply; I carried a few rounds in most tanks ‘just in case’ but rarely used it.  However, it’s been nearly 6 years since I played and I heard it went downhill when player numbers stopped increasing.  They could have just sat back and been satisfied with their success, and kept the game ticking over, but I hear they started adding ever more stupid stuff in an attempt to keep player numbers rising.

 

4 hours ago, _Thrash_ said:

I left WT GF with the introduction of premium IS-7 and the HESH nerf that suspiciously came at the same time. Whole teams were formed by these OP premiums but its always the same story, its either helicopters, zombers, ridiculous AAM, insane ufo FM...I don't want to rant any further, its just sad that each update we are expecting more broken mechanics and bugs.

Yea, while they often appear stupid when it comes to ‘sense of history’ or ‘good feel for gameplay,’ I’m sure they know exactly what they’re doing with helos behind a paywall coupled with an obviously broken game set up that allows helos to club from the moment they spawn.  Still not really sure what’s in it for them with all the favourable treatment for bombers in sim, save the usual hand-holding for the ‘can’t be bothered to learn types.’

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1 hour ago, Kernow1346 said:

TBH I never had any issues with WoT regarding premium.

There was an outrage about Chrysler K GF prem ammo etc. few years ago and afair wargaming was calling copyright strikes on people who were lets say criticizing the issue.

 

2 hours ago, Kernow1346 said:

They could have just sat back and been satisfied with their success, and kept the game ticking over, but I hear they started adding ever more stupid stuff in an attempt to keep player numbers rising.

That sounds familiar to me actually. Maybe not that dramatic...yet. Fmo premiums should never mean pooping into other player's rights but nvm....Not my company, not my reputation.

 

2 hours ago, Kernow1346 said:

I’m sure they know exactly what they’re doing

I'd actually gladly support Gaijin if I knew they were trying to create a fair, fun and a balanced game play for everyone. Since I know that is not the case I'm keeping most of my money to spend on other titles.

 

 

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1 hour ago, _Thrash_ said:

I'd actually gladly support Gaijin if I knew they were trying to create a fair, fun and a balanced game play for everyone. Since I know that is not the case I'm keeping most of my money to spend on other titles.

Yep.  Never had a problem with buying premium in WoT or WT, because I know the developer has to make money and I wanted to support game development.  As I can see there’s no effort put into developing the game, I now only spend GEs I earn by selling stuff on the market which I earned in-game.  WT has to be self-supporting now.  Might change my mind if EC showed signs of developing along the lines LGA laid out in some of his posts... but we know that’s not going to happen.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 23/12/2020 at 07:40, ogragla said:

I see it as you do... Preferred the old way: 1 spawn, 1 life,

 

Playing alone that's true.

Playing in squad, the first guy who's shot down or crashed had to wait for his squadmates to restart a game or was able to do recon with the spectator view.

Operation is for me the best mode for Sim air battles but it's ruined by people creating game rooms, constantly using the most unbalanced maps or the most tiny as possible, so the bombers players can finish the games quickly.

I wish we could have some kind of playlists but for maps for each front during the war so you join with a country and can play at least 4 or 5 games against historical enemies.

I know I'm a dreamer and that would leave some countries aside like Sweden but that's what I wish.

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  • 2 weeks later...

so uh, i actually didn't get any of these messages for whatever reason, thank you to EVERYONE who commented! 

 

i'm not sure if it was this post, or something behind the scenes totally unrelated but... i can just spawn in my F-100 from the start of every match now and i'm having the time of my life???????? 

 

did this thread WORK??? or am i just getting CRAZY lucky with matchmaker? 

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12 hours ago, Wikikomoto said:

did this thread WORK??? or am i just getting CRAZY lucky with matchmaker?

Yes, this and dozens of other threads finally caused EC7 to come into existence, which makes top tier much more balanced, as the starters at 9.7 (like F-100) can effectively compete with the top rank 10.7s.

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