Jump to content

Why would this WW2 Japanese tank have better armor protection than Ferdinand?


When I shot 4 rounds to this vehichle with my 8.8cm/L71 and no penetration,I felt it's strange.So I checked it's armor.    225mm??:facepalm:

IMG_20201222_000517.thumb.jpg.5b4e44873d

Okay,how can this be possible?The most used tank in WW2 by IJA was Type-97,a 15 tons light tank.

654863067_srchttp_img.kongzhong.com_mil_

Where can them have the technology to design a engine to fit this Japanese version Ferdinand?

It even have better armor than Ferdinand.:dntknw:

Did someone give the wrong data or blueprint?

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

A nations most used tank is not really a measure of what they are capable of. Germanys most used tank for example was:

The Panzer IV Tank: Germany's Most Exported WW2 Tank

 

Yet they also made:

The Maus Tank – An Crazy Invention, But Would It Have Been Effective Enough  To Change The Outcome Of WWII?

 

As far as the Ho-Ri(s) go, we used as much source data as possible: https://sensha-manual.blogspot.com/2016/11/type5-ho-ri-japanese-ferdinand.html?m=1

ok so source data of tanks tanks that didn't exist is adequate enough to put a tank in the game but, yet fact and proof of use is not enough to implement the l26 for the challenger 1? 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, moz2003 said:

ok so source data of tanks tanks that didn't exist is adequate enough to put a tank in the game but, yet fact and proof of use is not enough to implement the l26 for the challenger 1? 

 

There are several sources confirming this tanks existence in some form. WW2 Japanese sources are rare, scares and hard to find.

 

Ammunition on the other hand is a balancing selection per tank. It has nothing to do with sources, but developer decision. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

There are several sources confirming this tanks existence in some form. WW2 Japanese sources are rare, scares and hard to find.

 

Ammunition on the other hand is a balancing selection per tank. It has nothing to do with sources, but developer decision. 

Then the Russians should lose the era pack its a balancing thing right?

Edited by moz2003
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

There are several sources confirming this tanks existence in some form. WW2 Japanese sources are rare, scares and hard to find.

 

Ammunition on the other hand is a balancing selection per tank. It has nothing to do with sources, but developer decision. 

Ho-Ri was made when the fraud known as Waffentrager/Daigensui was the "consultant" on Japanese tanks. Their "Ho-Ri" has been dissected as a fake on other forums.

 

  • Upvote 3
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

There are several sources confirming this tanks existence in some form. WW2 Japanese sources are rare, scares and hard to find.

 

Ammunition on the other hand is a balancing selection per tank. It has nothing to do with sources, but developer decision. 

You got any of these sources on hand or somebody that has them? A lot of people would love to see those.

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Where can them have the technology to design a engine to fit this Japanese version Ferdinand?

 

apart from them making thousands of high powered aircraft engines for many years??

 

Quote

Why would this WW2 Japanese tank have better armor protection than Ferdinand?

 

Literally BECAUSE the early tanks were so rubbish!

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

 

apart from them making thousands of high powered aircraft engines for many years??

Literally BECAUSE the early tanks were so rubbish!

You dont know that only Gorious Germans can create?Armor:Germans(ignore that they were britle),engines:Germans(ingore that 70t monster was using 690hp) you see Germans were creating everything best so no underhuman can create something better :crab:.

  • Haha 2
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

36 minutes ago, wulfalier said:

You dont know that only Gorious Germans can create?Armor:Germans(ignore that they were britle),engines:Germans(ingore that 70t monster was using 690hp) you see Germans were creating everything best so no underhuman can create something better :crab:.

 

Nah - never got that memo! :017:

  • Haha 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

A nations most used tank is not really a measure of what they are capable of. Germanys most used tank for example was:

The Panzer IV Tank: Germany's Most Exported WW2 Tank

 

Yet they also made:

The Maus Tank – An Crazy Invention, But Would It Have Been Effective Enough  To Change The Outcome Of WWII?

 

As far as the Ho-Ri(s) go, we used as much source data as possible: https://sensha-manual.blogspot.com/2016/11/type5-ho-ri-japanese-ferdinand.html?m=1

The Germans have the engine to drive heavy panzers,but apparently Japan didn't have that engine technology.

  • Confused 1
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/12/2020 at 14:54, RoflSeal said:

Ho-Ri was made when the fraud known as Waffentrager/Daigensui was the "consultant" on Japanese tanks. Their "Ho-Ri" has been dissected as a fake on other forums.

 

She's not a fraud. She was very clear, once she stopped working with Gaijin, that the Ho-Ri Production is fake

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Yeah she did make it clear I've seen her talk about it on reddit and such that she gave these stats of the propsal of the production version but then after it was implimented realised she'd misinterpreted them. 

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 14:20, Smin1080p said:

Germanys most used tank for example was:

The Panzer IV Tank: Germany's Most Exported WW2 Tank

:dntknw:

At least have the knowledge to picture an Ausf. H and not this rare C with less than 150 produced

 

Edited by Chomusuke1

Smin1080p (Posted )

I was not detailing a spesific variant but the simple fact of a Panzer IV. I'm well aware it was not the most produced variant :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is from a comment made by Mai_Waffentrager on reddit regarding the Ho-Ri Production:

 

Quote

In regards to how Gaijin chose to implement them, that is where things were complicated. I was approached and asked both the likely outcomes of their development characteristics and what Japan had been experimenting with that may have been considered sometime in development of the late-war tank designing. They finalized their "Production" model based on these two things. If Gaijin were to realistically correct the "Production" model, it would likely reverse to the standard 550hp engine the Japanese had started to produce for their tanks, not some experimental engine that we have such little documentation of. [To further this, I even instructed Gaijin the engines name was not even known, only to be listed as Experimental Kawasaki, all the same they went with this?].

 

The armour most likely significantly reduced matching the prototype. The only explanation I can see as to why Gaijin chose this is because Japan only mentions its armour at 120 millimeters. It is not foreclosed where on the body this thickness is matched. Hence, Gaijin chose to model the "Production" tank with the mindset that value is in regards to the hull. [Should be noted if the O-I could not even armour its hull fully without the production means, how could they manage this on a Ho-Ri?].

 

The over-all finalized design of the tank is up for debate. It is not currently known what type of hull Japan went with for its projected production status. You could argue that because the prototype had a slanted hull, it is obvious Japan did the same for its finished model. [As you can tell, this is what Gaijin stuck with]. You could, also, consider the fact it may have went with a flat center held superstructure as the drawn design with the farthest in-date status is from 1945, with the center superstructure design. All the same, its unclear and up in the air.

 

Many can claim it was intentional on my part, they can say what they will. I have been publicly opposed to the "production" model from before it was confirmed by Gaijin Entertainment. Both on reddit and discord communities. The final choice to Gaijins reasoning [at least during my conversations working with them when the prototype was unveiled] was that it was a needed addition as Japan lacked any top tier tank destroyer and needed something to make investing in the premium to make sense. In fact Gaijin had no plans to implement it until after the Prototype devblog had been released. And instead of making a new model, they reused the prototypes and gave it a new gun shield [also, the prototype and production have the two gun shields mismatched, the irony there.] As part of our contract, I made the decision to defend their actions. However since leaving those defenses were removed.

 

In short, the Ho-Ri Production was one big mistake on Gaijin's end. Just giving Japan random made up stuff won't make the Japanese community any happier. Instead of a made up "Production" model, Gaijin should have added the Ho-Ri I or II designs into the techtree.

Atleast these have accurate blueprints available for them.....

The only thing I want Gaijin to do now is to admit their mistake and remove this made up tank from the game for good. Don't move it away from the techtree and make it a collectable rare vehicle, no I mean remove it. Select, right click, delete!

For a game like War Thunder, that strives to be historically accurate, this is just laughable.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/12/2020 at 14:11, FlyingNOKIA said:

When I shot 4 rounds to this vehichle with my 8.8cm/L71 and no penetration,I felt it's strange.So I checked it's armor.    225mm??:facepalm:

IMG_20201222_000517.thumb.jpg.5b4e44873d

Okay,how can this be possible?The most used tank in WW2 by IJA was Type-97,a 15 tons light tank.

654863067_srchttp_img.kongzhong.com_mil_

Where can them have the technology to design a engine to fit this Japanese version Ferdinand?

It even have better armor than Ferdinand.:dntknw:

Did someone give the wrong data or blueprint?

Ok... So.

The T-34 was the most used soviet tank in WW2. Yet, we have things like the IS-7, which is literally, (I would say) the most advanced tank designed in the WW2 to Early Postwar era.

The M4 Sherman, was the most used american tank, in WW2. Yet, we have the T-28/95, a tank designed to destroy the Siegfried Line.

The Pz. 4/3 was the most used tank in the German armed forces, up until the end of the war. Yet, we have the Maus, one of the most infamous tanks in War Thunder, and even in WoT, and WoTB. Don't get me started on the P1000 Ratte.

What's the same with all of these tanks? All of there were experimental/prototype tanks. The T-28, IS-7, and Maus were prototypes, with only 1-2 prototypes ever made. The P1000 Ratte was only on paper. All of these tanks (With the exception of the P1000 Ratte) with the Japanese Heavy Tank Destroyers, are/were prototypes/on paper vehicles. Some that even were green lit sometimes weren't even finished (Panther 2 comes to mind)

Basically, it isn't very wrong to add prototype/on paper vehicles.

Also, tech doesn't limit anything really. An example would be the IS-7, also did Japan not create Airplane, Ship, and well, tank engines? Could they not design a new engine, or use existing engines? 

And also, how does one tank having more armor then a Ferdinand do anything. IS-4 has comparable, maybe even better armor some might say. However. This does not mean there are no weak points, Ferdinand has the lower right and left plates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 20/01/2021 at 22:21, SuperKnight333 said:

the problem is, they removed panther II and KT 105 for being historically inaccurate yet stuff fake/paper design like this still exist.

Currently Japan does have a host to many paper and, in the case of the Ho-Ri Production, a outright fictional design. It is generally agreed upon that it should be removed and, at least in my opinion, the preceding Type 61 and its prototypes are far more powerful than the Ho-Ri Production will ever be granted by their HEAT-FS and the Ho-Ri's armour itself being made somewhat worthless due to the high-penetration APHE, APDS, and HEAT-FS found even before its own BR. 

 

However, while the OP does make a bad point by bringing up a tank designed in 1936 and falsely called it the most produced Japanese tank of the war which is a title that belongs to the Ha-Go; he isn't entirely wrong. Japan didn't have the ability to actually produce the 1,100 hp engine which while it was designed, I don't believe was produced. They also couldn't produce such thick armour plates and as seen on the O-I and speculated to be done with the Ho-Ri II, two plates had to be combined to bring them up to to either 150 mm thickness (two 75 mm plates) or 125 mm thickness (one 75 mm plate, one 50 mm plate). As people have already said, both @Mai_Waffentrager and Gaijin themselves have acknowledged that the design was pulled out of their butt due to a misconception of what one of the Ho-Ri documents meant. People have said that it should remain in the tree because "lineups", but it isn't even a good tank at 7.0 and its removal wouldn't affect the lineup there that much since Japanese players will still have four HEAT-FS capable tanks they can pull up from 6.3 - 6.7 to serve as a backup to the Type 60 ATM; the only non-meme tank at 7.0 aside from the Ho-Ri not to say that the Type 75 MSSR isn't fun to use.

Edited by Wiggly_Armed_Man
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...