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R-60....


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I've only been using R-60s since after people started talking about a nerf, and I'm finding them to be very good missiles. I can only imagine how good they must have been before if people find their current performance bad.

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34 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

I've only been using R-60s since after people started talking about a nerf, and I'm finding them to be very good missiles. I can only imagine how good they must have been before if people find their current performance bad.

That thing best have 15g now. No where near 30g overload. They need to fix that writing...

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16 hours ago, Exordinary said:

That thing best have 15g now. No where near 30g overload. They need to fix that writing...

Imagine thinking the start card means anything.

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On 13/11/2020 at 21:23, Flame2512 said:

I've only been using R-60s since after people started talking about a nerf, and I'm finding them to be very good missiles. I can only imagine how good they must have been before if people find their current performance bad.


It was close to Matra Magic, but shorter range...or bit worse than SRAAM, but longer range. Within 1500 m almost 100% hit unless someone spam flares or does crazy rolls at high speed. 

Now R60 is almost as mediocre as Aim-9D but still short range missile.

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They feel even worse today on the new update, they struggle to track anything doing the barest of manouvers. Anecdotal but still: Fired one from about 15 degrees above a turnfighting phantom going anywhere between 600-700kph coming out of a turn and straightening out, no flares, no nothing. It refused to follow him into like a 6G turn. Launch distance was like 1.2km, this needs to be adressed ASAP as late AIM9 variants currently outperfoming it massively although they should be rough equivalents

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2 hours ago, Nicklarca said:

They feel even worse today on the new update, they struggle to track anything doing the barest of manouvers. Anecdotal but still: Fired one from about 15 degrees above a turnfighting phantom going anywhere between 600-700kph coming out of a turn and straightening out, no flares, no nothing. It refused to follow him into like a 6G turn. Launch distance was like 1.2km, this needs to be adressed ASAP as late AIM9 variants currently outperfoming it massively although they should be rough equivalents

 

 

To me it looks like proportional navigation got nerfed and it track more in pursuit (so less efficient) + in terminal phase R60 can simply miss target by 2-4 meters as if proximity fuse got nerfed / bugged too.

 

Similar cas was with SRAAMs in period they were nerfed/bugged.

 

As for "anecdotal" - today I had matches where R60 failed to catch subsonic targets as F86F or Hunter which where in about 1000 m distance and did nothing but sustained turn (no crazy rolling and so on, just turn).

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 - did bug report for R60 pass to Devs? @Rapitor - you know the case?



 

Edited by Einherjer1979
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On 14/11/2020 at 14:09, IAMTRIGGERED said:

Imagine thinking the start card means anything.


It had 30G also in game code (datamined).

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3 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

 

 

To me it looks like proportional navigation got nerfed and it track more in pursuit (so less efficient) + in terminal phase R60 can simply miss target by 2-4 meters as if proximity fuse got nerfed / bugged too.

 

Similar cas was with SRAAMs in period they were nerfed/bugged.

 

As for "anecdotal" - today I had matches where R60 failed to catch subsonic targets as F86F or Hunter which where in about 1000 m distance and did nothing but sustained turn (no crazy rolling and so on, just turn).

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 - did bug report for R60 pass to Devs? @Rapitor - you know the case?



 

This might actually be the case now that you point it out, R60s barely seem to lead at all compared to Magics or AIM9s.

edit: even though I believe the R60 has a wider seeker angle

Edited by Nicklarca
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6 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 - did bug report for R60 pass to Devs? @Rapitor - you know the case?

 

 

Yeah, it was passed. I talked with rapitor prior to this and I personally reported it twice. 

Edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87
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Zetaris personally did some testing with it and sent these videos to me

 

Right now the best missile is the AIM-9J

 

 

The difference is really big

 

He also found a possible solution to the issue; it seems that it has to do with the accelControlDiff code in the files. Depending on the value applied, it may smooth out the missile's flight path. He modified the one of the Mistral from =2 to =1, here's the difference:

 

From his words on discord:

 

accelControlDiff being too high relative to other accelControl values causes the missile to under-lead targets in some cases. Also, the absence of a baseIndSpeed value produced a fast spinning motion around its central axis, which has the effect of reducing maneuverability at high speed (the Mistral has a similar problem

 

There you go.

 

Smin told me it's being investigated, Zetaris also told me he reported this to Rapitor along with the possible solution.

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8 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

accelControlDiff being too high relative to other accelControl values causes the missile to under-lead targets in some cases. Also, the absence of a baseIndSpeed value produced a fast spinning motion around its central axis, which has the effect of reducing maneuverability at high speed (the Mistral has a similar problem

 

This is exactly what I see in matches:

  • problem with pulling the lead 
  • low maneuverability when being accelerated

As an effect even Hunter FGA.9 can evade R60 just by bank left or right and pull sustained turn. :facepalm:


 

11 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

Smin told me it's being investigated, Zetaris also told me he reported this to Rapitor along with the possible solution.


@EpicBlitzkrieg87, @Zetaris - thx guys for your effort!

 

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45 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

This is exactly what I see in matches:

  • problem with pulling the lead 
  • low maneuverability when being accelerated

As an effect even Hunter FGA.9 can evade R60 just by bank left or right and pull sustained turn. :facepalm:

 

Exactly! look at my footage here:

 

 

46 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

 

This is exactly what I see in matches:

  • problem with pulling the lead 
  • low maneuverability when being accelerated

As an effect even Hunter FGA.9 can evade R60 just by bank left or right and pull sustained turn. :facepalm:


 


@EpicBlitzkrieg87, @Zetaris - thx guys for your effort!

 

 

thanks!

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Really, something should be done about it, because now best weapon of Mig-21bis is...R13M with 15G max overload. :facepalm:

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3 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Really, something should be done about it, because now best weapon of Mig-21bis is...R13M with 15G max overload. :facepalm:

 

At this point, suddenly even the R-3S looks like a nice option.

 

Now it takes 2 R-60's to kill an F-4. Thanks Gaijin.

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I hope they hotfix this fast, kinda sucks to have been hyped to play the mig 21 bis for so long only for the missiles to perform like super slow Aim 9 E's

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Only took 5 R60's to kill this phantom from close range barely breaking a sweat dodging my missiles with no worries.

 

Edited by IAmLordeYaYa
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14 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Really, something should be done about it, because now best weapon of Mig-21bis is...R13M with 15G max overload. :facepalm:

 

It's always touted as the equivalent of the AIM-9G, that has to be wrong. Especially that the R-13M1 was very comparable to the AIM-9J and AIM-9H. There's no way they were 15G irl.

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1 minute ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

It's always touted as the equivalent of the AIM-9G, that has to be wrong. Especially that the R-13M1 was very comparable to the AIM-9J and AIM-9H. There's no way they were 15G irl.

What's also weird is how the R-13's are 15G overload just like the r530's but the r530's pull atleast 5x better.

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1 hour ago, IAmLordeYaYa said:

What's also weird is how the R-13's are 15G overload just like the r530's but the r530's pull atleast 5x better.

 

It's not weird. There's more to it than just G load. The R.530 pulls better because its motor burn time lasts longer and the missile itself is faster, so because of those two factors it has more energy and thus turns better.

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13 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

It's not weird. There's more to it than just G load. The R.530 pulls better because its motor burn time lasts longer and the missile itself is faster, so because of those two factors it has more energy and thus turns better.

It's exactly the opposite. R.530 is heavy and draggy and its slow, that makes it turn a lot even with 15G, R-13M has 15G but it flies so fast so it locks itself by that 15G.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r9ko9WlEoNZtJLd37Is8MS4_sYqO9Mz3_lDs-y5EhNQ/edit#gid=0 there you can see that raw acceleration at ignition (r-13m) is almost double the (R.530).

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2 minutes ago, PhantomRiderWT said:

It's exactly the opposite. R.530 is heavy and draggy and its slow, that makes it turn a lot even with 15G, R-13M has 15G but it flies so fast so it locks itself by that 15G.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r9ko9WlEoNZtJLd37Is8MS4_sYqO9Mz3_lDs-y5EhNQ/edit#gid=0 there you can see that raw acceleration at ignition (r-13m) is almost double the (R.530).

 

You're forgetting that the R530's max speed is higher and it burns A LOT longer. 

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1 hour ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

It's not weird. There's more to it than just G load. The R.530 pulls better because its motor burn time lasts longer and the missile itself is faster, so because of those two factors it has more energy and thus turns better.

Ok that actually makes alot of sense

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Todays example of how R-60 missile "works":

1. About 500 m distance, perfect lock, subsonic speed, no high-G...but at the beginning, just after launch missile decided to fly at random direction:

Spoiler

GlsuytB.jpg

 

2. After some delay...ufff, regained lock and is going in the right direction (ofc wasted a lot of fuel for that astray flying):

Spoiler

cy2EDu0.jpg

 

3. Wow wow wow, it will be kill for sure and I will save the teammate in Hunter:

Spoiler

LQEHiW3.jpg

 

4. Nope, apparently it was to hard to hit for one of the best dogfight missile from 70's :facepalm:

Spoiler

iCtikXY.jpg

 

@Smin1080p, @Rapitor - we really need your assist, seems the same case as it was with SRAAMs, but this time it's going to waste whole Mig-21bis hype and joy....

Edited by Einherjer1979
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