Jump to content

Why are fighint german ww2 tanks against Americian tanks from 1970?


12 hours ago, AssaultPlazma said:

So first you pivot then try to gaslight me and claim I'm the one who started this nonsense? The only reason we're discussing this 5v1 shenanigan's is because YOU initially brought it up. 

 

No, you just dont understand your own argument, that has nothing to do with the original, because it  neither applies to reality in majority of cases, as a the sizable number of documented engagements are in the range of 1-4 allied tanks involved, nor does it apply to the rest, where there were upwards of 30 tanks involved in overwhelming numerical superiority related to their targets.

Edited by Ulatersk
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, FelipeBizaboo said:

So, if a Comet hits the Tiger, drills with APDS and breaks the engine, or the cannon for example, the tiger will be immobilized the whole game, because there was no way to fix it, it would take hours, or days, or need to change the engine or the whole cannon, and it doesn't take a few seconds, it takes days. And in the situation that Germany was in when the Comets arrived at the front, the most logical thing would be for Tiger's crew to abandon the tank. NO SENSE, THE GAME NEED TO BE BALANCED, SO, GERMAN WW2 NEED TO FACE POST WAR TANKS, YES.

 

Strange example. Comet cruiser tanks arrived in Europe in January 1945.

Tiger was first deployed in August 1942. Its production was phased out in July 1944. 

 

One could argue that Comets probably met some leftover Tigers.... In 1945 thats pretty much unlikely in the West. If they'd  met some of the remaining Tigers, it were probably abandoned ones on the roadside, without fuel etc.

  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Thodin said:

 

Strange example. Comet cruiser tanks arrived in Europe in January 1945.

Tiger was first deployed in August 1942. Its production was phased out in July 1944. 

 

One could argue that Comets probably met some leftover Tigers.... In 1945 thats pretty much unlikely in the West. If they'd  met some of the remaining Tigers, it were probably abandoned ones on the roadside, without fuel etc.

 

Yes that's mainly because when tanks rolled off the production lines for the allies they didn't immediately reach the front line..

 

Comets are 1944 q few recorded cases of them engaging tigers but just as all tanks on the offensive against prepared positions results were not too stellar...

 

Your missing the point though you can't have historical match ups and 20 second repairs, allied tanks could be repaired after being knocked out/damaged  german vehicles often being over engineered meant upon being damaged and having to retreat had to be scuttled.

 

As in every chronicles  event historical matchmaking is tedious as there are often 20 players queuing for the stronger side for every 1 on the weaker side.

 

Allowing more players on the weaker side changes nothing because nobody queues for them, and allowing air power just causes more complaints.

 

The current system although not perfect allows all sides an equal chance (most of the time)

  • Like 1
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, DrPhibes1 said:

 

As in every chronicles  event historical matchmaking is tedious as there are often 20 players queuing for the stronger side for every 1 on the weaker side.

 

I mean, I wouldn't mind getting in queue for the weaker side if

a) we received more rewards from chosing to do so. It could be something small, like a unique title, medal or skin rewarding you for using your T-34s to take out Tigers.

b) the weak side actually had a chance of winning. Most often you beat the foes, only for them to come back in even stronger vehicles and the situation becomes hopeless. As usual, bad players leaving after their first death only makes it even harder.

The system can work if people are commited to it, if ticket bleed is a thing, if one side starts with some advantages like objectives already conquered, etc. I've seen it happening for years in Forgotten Hope (a Mod for Battlefield 1942) - Gaijin has just to put in the work and accept it's not a game mode for everyone.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08/11/2020 at 06:57, Ulatersk said:

 

No, you just dont understand your own argument, that has nothing to do with the original, because it  neither applies to reality in majority of cases, as a the sizable number of documented engagements are in the range of 1-4 allied tanks involved, nor does it apply to the rest, where there were upwards of 30 tanks involved in overwhelming numerical superiority related to their targets.

 

40wfsh.jpg

Edited by AssaultPlazma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 months later...
On 06/11/2020 at 02:40, DrPhibes1 said:

 

A fairly detailed look at the numbers explains everything nicely.

 

 

 

Really ? Late response i know .But i just saw this :D .

 

Look what these historian said :

 

 

1.Charles Trang Wiking division volume 3

same autor mentions countless times :  severely outnumbered german forces in both men and material.


7.kp./SS-Pz.Rgt.5  while on reconnaisance encounters large tank force and destroys 12 russian tanks
than retrets . 
the Soviet tank force go after them and was ambushed by :

II.//SS pz.Rg5 which destroyes 99 russian tanks with no losses .

 


2


.Zaloga book about russian summer offensive of 44.

 

Tiger I of heavy abteilung 505 halt the soviet advance on minsk 28 june 1944 destroyed 128 shermans 

and the soviet losses led to the Marshal Pavel Rotministroy relief from comand of 5th tank army

 

3.

Egon Kleine 

 

Pz abteilung 502

From 12 January to 31 March 1943, this company destroyed 160 Soviet tanks and lost 6 Tigers.

 

 The unit never had more than four operational Tigers at the same time during this entire period .Three of the six Tigers
lost were destroyed by their own crews; two of them after they had become stuck in the
“peat-bog” and one because of mechanical failure.

 

If you want to continue i have about 100 more of these .

Edited by IVJG4_Knight
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, IVJG4_Knight said:

 

Really ? Late response i know .But i just saw this :D .

 

Look what these historian said :

 

 

1.Charles Trang Wiking division volume 3

same autor mentions countless times :  severely outnumbered german forces in both men and material.


7.kp./SS-Pz.Rgt.5  while on reconnaisance encounters large tank force and destroys 12 russian tanks
than retrets . 
the Soviet tank force go after them and was ambushed by :

II.//SS pz.Rg5 which destroyes 99 russian tanks with no losses .

 


2


.Zaloga book about russian summer offensive of 44.

 

Tiger I of heavy abteilung 505 halt the soviet advance on minsk 28 june 1944 destroyed 128 shermans 

and the soviet losses led to the Marshal Pavel Rotministroy relief from comand of 5th tank army

 

3.

Egon Kleine 

 

Pz abteilung 502

From 12 January to 31 March 1943, this company destroyed 160 Soviet tanks and lost 6 Tigers.

 

 The unit never had more than four operational Tigers at the same time during this entire period .Three of the six Tigers
lost were destroyed by their own crews; two of them after they had become stuck in the
“peat-bog” and one because of mechanical failure.

 

If you want to continue i have about 100 more of these .

 

With a name like ivj4g Knight I may be wasting my time but..

 

You can't rely on these numbers they can be greatly exaggerated with crews counting tanks twice and then tanks being "destroyed" but then recovered and repaired the next day. + propaganda and all the other joys of war over 70 years ago immediately followed by a cold War were the defeated enemy now needs to be your ally and having to keep german generals in the new german army... 

 

 

 

for number 3

6 tigers lost so no other tanks? Assault guns? AT guns? Seem pretty unreasonable figures...

 

And as for other historians TIK posts all of his sources and uses a lot of the latest figures In the video you are welcome to check yourself.

 

 

 

Edited by DrPhibes1
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 03/11/2020 at 12:44, [email protected] said:

I love the realistic War Thunder battles, but somtimes i get frustrated, wehn i have to fight with the tiger against americian and russian tanks, wich came out years after the war. In realf life the german tanks were much more stronger in ww2 than americians so i can understand, that there has to be a ballencing, but this is not the best way I think, it would be much better, if its like in realf life, german ww2 tanks against americian ww2 tanks and the german tanks are stronger, but they have less vehicles than the americians like in real life.

Yeah, the moment I am oneshotted by some postwar crap with double the pen than my Tigers or Panthers, I quit.

But the same problem is everywhere in the game. R3 malarkey, EBR which should be at the same BR as T-54 and not ruin life for all players in WW2 vehicles, M41 fighting IS2s and Panthers, ASU 57 from 1950's at 4.3 and so on.

So yeah, the game is broken beyond belief. But hey, they had to remove Panther II as unrealistic right? Leaving Germany with NO medium tank from 5.7 to 7.3. Triple facepalm is not enough.

  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, DrPhibes1 said:

With a name like ivj4g Knight I may be wasting my time but..

 

You can't rely on these numbers they can be greatly exaggerated with crews counting tanks twice and then tanks being "destroyed" but then recovered and repaired the next day. + propaganda and all the other joys of war over 70 years ago immediately followed by a cold War were the defeated enemy now needs to be your ally and having to keep german generals in the new german army... 

 

 

 

for number 3

6 tigers lost so no other tanks? Assault guns? AT guns? Seem pretty unreasonable figures...

 

And as for other historians TIK posts all of his sources and uses a lot of the latest figures In the video you are welcome to check yourself.

 

 

I'm looking through my books for a more complex response but until than .

 

 Look this guy TIK claims : "German generals blamed Hitler after the war but not during etc" as far as i recall.

 

 But in case of Romel for example :

He either saw Hitler as incompetent and was involved in the plot . So a really competent man (even allies believed so ) saw H as incompetent.

Or Romel was not involved in the plot and Hitler forced Romel to "take himself out " for no reason .           

 

                                

                                    

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Addressing OP's concerns, most post-war tanks you'd face in the big cats happen to be within the range of 1.0 BR above each tank's respective BR, such as the M48A1 at 7.3 and the Tiger II P at 6.3. Thus, you'll normally only see these foes in an uptier, much like having the M4A3(76)W facing the Tiger II H in an uptier. In both cases, it's supposed to be challenging and frustrating to fight in the uptier, regardless of production date. Long story short, you see said postwar vehicles due to Gaijin wanting to give you a challenge. As for more lightly armored postwar vehicles, the hardest part of dealing with them is spotting them on your flank before you get shot by them. Nonetheless, you in your Tiger  are perfectly capable of dealing with postwar tanks from the side, and sometimes the front, much like how the Easy Eight can only kill the King Tigers from frontal weak spots and side shots. Otherwise, at your BR and lower you'll be hard-pressed to find a common and competitive enemy that can surpass you in your tank's ideal situation (long ranges with open lines of sight including on the flanks, such as the Russian Steppe, which the big cats were historically designed for in the first place). For instance, a sniping battle between you and a walker bulldog will be in your favor, as the only shell the bulldog can penetrate you with is woefully inaccurate, and the bulldog's armor won't save it from any 88mm hit. Meanwhile, you're relatively safe to dispatch your foe within 2-3 shots. Once again, postwar tanks exist as potential enemies for your big cats so your gameplay experience is more than a point-and-click adventure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally understand your frustration. I used to be the same until I delved a bit into history.

 

There were vehicles that were designed in ww2 but never quite made it or saw engagement. Centurion 1(1946), IS3 (1944) for example, maybe is4 (1946) and t95/28 (1945) I think also. 

 

While these vehicles may not have engaged historically they were not far that off and I think with some exceptions (I would take HEAT away) the set up in WT isn't that far off either.

 

I will also play something like pt76b or ASU85 which were 50's and 60's tech at higher BR's to get them away from ww2 and into a more realistic line up. Use them as intended (scouts) and it works quite well. For me anyway.

 

Or take lower br'd vehicles into tougher games and I don't mean BT5 at top tier.

 

For example one of my Ussr line ups is, IS4 (1946) ,IS3,PT76b (1951) ,ASU85 (1959-1993), SU-100p (1947) and ZSU-23-4 (at 8.0 keeps me away from playing ww2).

 

But an IS3 vs King Tiger. Absolutely it should be in game.

 

I do the same with the JPZ 4-5 (1965) which does not belong I believe with WW2. But take it up a notch to 7.7,8.0 and you can get some good scores. But use it as it was intended. Hide and shoot. Move only when you have to. Some players call it camping and these will be 'There is only one way to play WT' crew. Single Celled amoebas. Tell em to 'XXXX XXX'.

 

If you just had historical battles in WT it wouldn't work. Not without a lot of what else happened in WW2 like fuel shortages, ammo shortages and everything else that felled Germany. So it has to be balanced somehow. 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 2
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/11/2020 at 14:19, Psychobiker said:

 

Is this text some kind of irony or joke? 

 

On the western front the US mainly won by using airplanes and artillery, and un unlimited source of supplies. Also remember that only about 10% of the german forces where on the west front. 

 

Shermans got beat up pretty rough, and was nob to catch fire very easely, and there was no big tank battles either on that Front. US simple avoid it and used planes and artillery instead. 

 

US army itself calculated it needed 5 Shermans to take out one Tiger. 

 

The russian tanks you mentioned like the T-34-85 is not better then a Tiger or Panther, but was produced in far greater numbers. 

T44 was not produced in any big numbers, it was more like. Prototype, and IS-3 entered WW2 in the last week of the war. 

 

German tanks also had superior sights, and hade NVD that worked at the end of the war, wich no other country had. 

 

Tanks like Tiger 2 and Jagttiger had no match on either side. 

 

 

Even american historicans state that the german army wasn't really beaten, it more wear down when spare parts, ammunition and fuel ran out. 

 

Even the best tank in the world are useless with no fuel... 

 

So if all the ww2 tanks was moduled like the real ones, with correct armour, correct ammunition, correct sights, radio:s etc, no other nation would stand a chance, if there where equal number of tanks on both sides.

 

But if the game was so realistic, the german side would not be aloud to use air support, and the allies should be 5 times as many. 

 

 

Thank you for the historical accuracy.  The Sherman was hardly the "best tank" as is so often quoted here.  That's why they made so many, to fill in for all the losses! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

War Thunder should have been a game where you have a bunch of Panthers fighting a bunch of T-34-85s and other such matches.  I.e., SB.  But people rather spend past 7 years whining here instead of just queuing in the mode where the problem does not exist.  Well... except for P2W lineups.  ;)

Edited by Sertica
  • Upvote 1
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many folks here, some with funny hats, insist on first spouting their US/Russia is best rhetoric which should negate any historical comment offered. Better for your blood pressure to just play the tanks you enjoy and never hope for historical accuracy.   Just played in the Sinai where I was one shotted within two minutes by an IS 2 which according to the replay covered 800 yards before my Tiger could cover 150. He probably moved even faster as he was in a great sniper position .  Yeah, okay, that's realistic .  To say there is no German bias would be to echo "We are the Federal gummint, we're here to help",   :facepalm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

tank gameplay was best when there was only germany and ussr tank trees. well, Top tier was absolutely terrible tho. tiger 2h and panther 2 vs is3 and is4. (and yes, couple low tier tanks in some odd B.Rs too)   

 

but generally it felt like tank battle and not some mario kart race like nowadays with all speedy bois and such.

 

edit: then came the m18s with low ish br (4.3 i think) and their troll bounce chance armor that made 128mm guns ricochet.

 

and m41a or whatever bulldogs rushing caps and flanks against slow ww2 tanks and still having enough pen to kill them frontally too :facepalm:

 

its been downhill ever since...

 

i would go back if i could. that would mean t 34 85 and pz iv h are both 5.3 (or was it 5.0) br but that would be way more fun than current situatuon...

Edited by Mollotin
  • Like 1
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/02/2021 at 11:37, [email protected] said:

 

But an IS3 vs King Tiger. Absolutely it should be in game.

 did u play the game back when full teams of tiger 2 (h)s faced full teams of  is3s? 

 

i can tell u it was not fun and should not be in game.

 

 

top heavy tanks should have been tiger 2p and is 2 1944.  top mediums t44 and panther a or g.

 

 

 

 

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/02/2021 at 20:37, [email protected] said:

I totally understand your frustration. I used to be the same until I delved a bit into history.

 

There were vehicles that were designed in ww2 but never quite made it or saw engagement. Centurion 1(1946), IS3 (1944) for example, maybe is4 (1946) and t95/28 (1945) I think also. 

 

While these vehicles may not have engaged historically they were not far that off and I think with some exceptions (I would take HEAT away) the set up in WT isn't that far off either.

 

I will also play something like pt76b or ASU85 which were 50's and 60's tech at higher BR's to get them away from ww2 and into a more realistic line up. Use them as intended (scouts) and it works quite well. For me anyway.

 

Or take lower br'd vehicles into tougher games and I don't mean BT5 at top tier.

 

For example one of my Ussr line ups is, IS4 (1946) ,IS3,PT76b (1951) ,ASU85 (1959-1993), SU-100p (1947) and ZSU-23-4 (at 8.0 keeps me away from playing ww2).

 

But an IS3 vs King Tiger. Absolutely it should be in game.

 

I do the same with the JPZ 4-5 (1965) which does not belong I believe with WW2. But take it up a notch to 7.7,8.0 and you can get some good scores. But use it as it was intended. Hide and shoot. Move only when you have to. Some players call it camping and these will be 'There is only one way to play WT' crew. Single Celled amoebas. Tell em to 'XXXX XXX'.

 

If you just had historical battles in WT it wouldn't work. Not without a lot of what else happened in WW2 like fuel shortages, ammo shortages and everything else that felled Germany. So it has to be balanced somehow. 

 

 

 

pt76b is so bad though. Prob worse than Pz4. 

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mollotin said:

 did u play the game back when full teams of tiger 2 (h)s faced full teams of  is3s? 

 

i can tell u it was not fun and should not be in game.

top heavy tanks should have been tiger 2p and is 2 1944.  top mediums t44 and panther a or g.

that was back in the days, now IS-3 was nerfed soo much, even before volumetric and t29 spam IS-3 become soo underpowered every freaking shots from t29 penned IS turret ring, mantlet or just trapshot while IS with more than 230mm pen could not harm usa new heavies, not to mention rus 122mm terrible reload (even now usa and brits 120mm at 6.7-7.7 reload faster than rus 122mm or ger 128mm, probably for "balance" reason)

  • Like 1
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...