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New Player, Worried about long term game prospects


I played World of Tanks from 2011-2015. Instead of trying to go back there I came to War Thunder to get the Tanks working. I am a casual player so serious grinding requirements worry me.

The real concern I have is about the game being padded. I see there are apparently 7 "ranks" of vehicles. I dont know if Ranks affect the matchmaker or is that is what Battle Rating is for?

#1 Tech Trees, there are 9 different nations so completing them all will take a lot of time. People have to unlock new ranks by researching and purchasing (6/6/6/6/5/4) 33 Total new vehicles to get to the final tier? Why so many? That seems like a massive grind to play something like a Leopard 2 or T-80. Unless the Gun is a significant improved over the last vehicle the purchase doesnt even seem to have a point but to make the tech trees larger.

#2 Costs: Repair work seems Free to begin with, but then vehicles stop having Free repairs.
Why do I have to retrain crew over and over for every vehicle , even when its a small difference like the M2/M3/M5 Stuart? I know that is real life but its padding to increase costs of research and purchasing.

#3 Are high tier vehicles glorified trophies? I Ran into this situation if World of Tanks where the higher tier vehicles were basically impossible to make a profit from battles so even getting them was a waste of time and money.
Do higher rank vehicles have multiplied rewards to handle the costs in repairs, crew retraining, upgrades, and ammunition? They should make back all the costs to unlock and purchase them.

The game is pretty fun at rank 1 but as soon as I start getting to Rank 2 I think all the fun will go away as the game becomes Pay-To-Play. Id like to know sooner rather than later if any Cash$ will be required to get to those Top Tier Rank 7 vehicles.

Edited by chaosticket
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As far as I can see the Rank only seems to matter for events or warbonds.  These are tasks with no BR limit but are limited to Rank II or higher.  Matchmaking is all based on BR.

 

Repair cost increase as the BR increases, but so do the rewards from battle.  At all but the highest levels it is not a problem.  Some nations seem to be "blessed" with higher repair costs than others, so be careful of that.  Repair cost is really the worst problem in game at the moment.  Gaijin uses it as a form of balancing.

 

Higher tier vehicles have advancements in technologies so are more powerful.

 

If you are new to the game I can not recommend Tier One in France.   In brief avoid.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, chaosticket said:

33 Total new vehicles to get to the final tier? Why so many?

it's a grind game, if there wasn't a grind less people would buy premium. But it's still completely possible to get everything for free.

 

5 minutes ago, chaosticket said:

Why do I have to retrain crew over and over for every vehicle , even when its a small difference like the M2/M3/M5 Stuart?

usually you have enough money to buy the next vehicle, it's really not that bad, especially in the early tiers

 

7 minutes ago, chaosticket said:

Do higher rank vehicles have multiplied rewards to handle the costs in repairs, crew retraining, upgrades, and ammunition?

no, they have pretty steep repaircosts and you have to be good to make a profit with them. Luckily, you had to grind through 6 tiers previously so you hopefully learned how to make money.

 

And toptier isn't everything, i think toptier is actually really boring and the real fun is between tier 1 and tier 5

 

9 minutes ago, chaosticket said:

The game is pretty fun at rank 1 but as soon as I start getting to Rank 2 I think all the fun will go away as the game becomes Pay-To-Play.

no, it depends on the nation when it gets expensive, but all off them are pretty cheap until tier 3 and some even until tier 6

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Hello chaosticket,

 

Firstly welcome to the forum, let me see if I can ease your mind on a few things. For what its worth i've been playing since beta here and have most of all the tech trees unlocked at this stage.

 

With regards to the game being padded, ranks are just to quantify a general level (of vehicle) whereas Battle Ratings are what you should pay attention to, currently they spread from 1.0 all the way to 10.0+. Rank plays no part in the generation of matches, this is purely down to Battle Rating (BR).

 

1.) I will not lie to you here, the game is free to play and top tier is meant to be something of an effort to reach. By having to unlock certain numbers of particular vehicles at certain ranks it stops players from simply going straight along one line. Warthunder is meant to be more realistic than World of Tanks, so whilst the other game has 10 vehicles per line, Warthunder has many more. If it existed in real life it will likely be playable at present within the game, particularly for WW2 vehicles.

 

2.) Repair costs are largely something of a sore subject for some players. At the early ranks I would not worry about them too much unless you are planning to unlock every tech tree at once. Certain vehicles have high repair costs so watch out for those in some of the 'smaller' nations.

 

3.) Profit wise you can make money at any tier you plan on playing including top tier. Again certain nations have higher repair costs at present, such as Sweden so keep that in mind. Generally upgrades the higher the Battle Rating a vehicle is take longer to unlock and cost more to purchase, actually playing the vehicle will still give similar rewards however.

 

Lastly, I would say Warthunder is pay to progress not pay to win. Premium time and vehicles reduce the grind time significantly over free to play, you can unlock everything free to play though if you wish/choose. If you are interested in purchasing premium time or vehicles, the Warthunder Anniversary Sale is coming soon at the start of November. Any other questions feel free.

 

 

Edited by ItssLuBu
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13 minutes ago, ItssLuBu said:

I would say Warthunder is pay to progress not pay to win.


Of course you would ...! 
Mig-17AS, D-13, IDF vautour, Ka-50 etc say Hi ...

Mig-17AS and IDF vautour get missiles yet the same BR as their AAM-less counterparts ... so you get an advantage by paying ...
D-13 has better guns than D-12 and exactly the same performance, yet it has, not even the same, but lower BR in sim ...
Does Ka-50 need any explanation? they even made "low tier" lobbies for it, that top dog regular tree helicopters like Ka-52, Tiger UHT, Mi28N and AH mk1 (the only things that could give it SOME competition) can't join, but Ka-50 can ... so it can seal club other helicopters even easier and without any competition from Ka-52, Tiger UHT, Mi28N or AH mk1 ... 

As for the title, I wish this game was actually pay to play ... then you wouldn't have the pay to win aspect and there would be no or much less grinding as well ... but most importantly, you wouldn't have this nonsensical "but hey it's a free to play game" argument, whenever you bring up an issue regarding the game ...

Edited by Persian__Warrior
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6 minutes ago, Persian__Warrior said:


Of course you would ...! 
Mig-17AS, D-13, IDF vautour, Ka-50 etc say Hi ...

Mig-17AS and IDF vautour get missiles yet the same BR as their AAM-less counterparts ... so you get an advantage by paying ...
D-13 has better guns than D-12 and exactly the same performance, yet it has, not even the same, but lower BR in sim ...
Does Ka-50 need any explanation? they even made "low tier" lobbies for it, that top dog regular tree helicopters like Ka-52, Tiger UHT, Mi28N and AH mk1 (the only things that could give it SOME competition) can't join, but Ka-50 can ... so it can seal club other helicopters even easier and without any competition from Ka-52, Tiger UHT, Mi28N or AH mk1 ... 

As for the title, I wish this game was actually pay to play ... then you wouldn't have the pay to win aspect and there would be no or much less grinding as well ... but most importantly, you wouldn't have this nonsensical "but hey it's a free to play game" argument, whenever you bring up an issue regarding the game ...

 

These vehicles are not really pay to win with the arguable exception of the Ka-50 when it was introduced, there are now better tech tree vehicles than this helicopter that you have listed above. Also a reminder that this is supposed to be a section for new players, perhaps answering the OP and his questions would be a better course of action. 

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52 minutes ago, chaosticket said:

The game is pretty fun at rank 1 but as soon as I start getting to Rank 2 I think all the fun will go away as the game becomes Pay-To-Play

 

To me (and a lot of players) the game is best at low and mid tiers. The further up you go, the more demanding the game gets in terms of research, all kinds of costs and the least balance there is. The learning curve is also very steep and if you haven't been kicked out of the newbie zone yet you might still be under the illusion that the game is much easier than it really is. The game is very reasonable up to tier 4, but the higher up the more time it will take and premium account becomes almost necessary, and even then you'll have to put some time into learning the game. If your one and only goal is to get to top tiers, no, I honestly can't recommend the game for you, much less if you want to get there as a casual free-to-play player

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7 minutes ago, ItssLuBu said:

 

These vehicles are not really pay to win with the arguable exception of the Ka-50 when it was introduced, there are now better tech tree vehicles than this helicopter that you have listed above. Also a reminder that this is supposed to be a section for new players, perhaps answering the OP and his questions would be a better course of action. 


Do they get an advantage over regular tree vehicles at the same BR or not? those missiles aren't an advantage? 
pay to win means you get an advantage in the fight ... big or small ... 

I think you didn't fully read my post ... Ka-50 doesn't even have to face the helicopters I listed above (unless it specifically chooses to), because it has access to "lower tier" lobbies in Heli EC to seal club early helicopters without any competition from the regular tree top dogs ...

My reply was refuting your wrong answer to OP's question, using facts. so that he doesn't get misled by a wrong answer ... so it's actually on-topic ... 
also I answered the OP's concerns as he stated them in the title: "New Player, Worried about Fremium and Pay-To-Play". Pay to play would make a much better game ... 

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25 minutes ago, Persian__Warrior said:


Do they get an advantage over regular tree vehicles at the same BR or not? those missiles aren't an advantage? 
pay to win means you get an advantage in the fight ... big or small ... 

I think you didn't fully read my post ... Ka-50 doesn't even have to face the helicopters I listed above (unless it specifically chooses to), because it has access to "lower tier" lobbies in Heli EC to seal club early helicopters without any competition from the regular tree top dogs ...

My reply was refuting your wrong answer to OP's question, using facts. so that he doesn't get misled by a wrong answer ... so it's actually on-topic ... 
also I answered the OP's concerns as he stated them in the title: "New Player, Worried about Fremium and Pay-To-Play". Pay to play would make a much better game ... 

 

You are arguing the entire game is pay to win based upon four vehicles which have incredibly minor advantages over those which are found in the tech tree. That does not make the remaning thousand or so the same does it?

 

The OP asks about repair costs, battle ratings and so forth, am I to take it that you agree wholeheartedly with my opinions on those subjects as well? FYI opinions are not facts, try answering the OP rather than picking arguements over peoples views and opinions.

Edited by ItssLuBu
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1 hour ago, ItssLuBu said:

 

You are arguing the entire game is pay to win based upon four vehicles which have incredibly minor advantages over those which are found in the tech tree. That does not make the remaning thousand or so the same does it?

 

The OP asks about repair costs, battle ratings and so forth, am I to take it that you agree wholeheartedly with my opinions on those subjects as well? FYI opinions are not facts, try answering the OP rather than picking arguements over peoples views and opinions.


Of course all of the remaining thousand can't be pay to win ... pay to win means having an advantage over the rest ... it doesn't make sense for "everything" to have an advantage over "everything" ... some are at an advantage which puts the rest at a disadvantage ...
your solution of "just play the remaining thousand vehicles which aren't pay to win" doesn't make any sense either ... the problem is not with playing these pay to win vehicles, so that not playing them would solve it ... the problem is playing AGAINST them ...! and those remaining thousand (of course not all of them) have to face pay to win vehicles ... 
for example it's not possible to play helicopter EC without facing ka-50 ...

Calling vikhr a minor advantage in "lower tier" heli EC is just ridiculous ...

and those 4 were just some very obvious and blatant examples . you want more examples? A2D in the lower T-54 SB tank event ... which is even more OP than Wyvern was two years ago ... (and I have both of them) 

Now of course, the game is not pay to win in every single BR and game mode combination ... but overall, it is pay to win ... 

As for repair costs, you are right, but only in theory ... in practice, at high tiers, you need an extremely high K/D to make a "profit" off of them without premium account ... repair costs are so high that in many vehicles if you die once, you will lose SL even with a 4:1 KD ... so premium account is pretty much a must unless you are willing to regularly "farm" SL at lower tiers to then play the higher tiers for a bit ... but for me personally this isn't that big of an issue ... I just either buy premium account or farm SL at lower tiers to play the higher tiers ... and Gaijin has to make money in some way as well ... (and this doesn't give an absolute advantage in the fight either ...)

Edited by Persian__Warrior
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So it is a serious GRIND GAME then. Oh well thats honest at least. I think it may be better to give up on War Thunder then. Ive been avoiding trying it for years because I was afraid it was going to be another money-drain, and you tell me it is..

Grinding isnt fun by itself, but what you grind for like better equipment or new abilities. It would be extra frustrating working just get to the point where I can play tanks unique to War Thunder, such as tier 6+ Cold War tanks or maybe with Anti-tank missiles. I dont want to spend years just to get to equal progress.

 

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1 hour ago, chaosticket said:

So it is a serious GRIND GAME then. Oh well thats honest at least. I think it may be better to give up on War Thunder then. Ive been avoiding trying it for years because I was afraid it was going to be another money-drain, and you tell me it is..

 

It is a grind game. I haven't played the "World of" games so I don't know how they compare, but in WT the grind is honestly quite insane. It doesn't help that Gaijin keeps making terrible decisions in regards to economy and balance. The core gameplay is fun and the vehicle variety is second to none, but if I had to start over from scratch I definitely wouldn't do it. I totally understand if it isn't your thing at all.

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7 hours ago, Persian__Warrior said:


Of course all of the remaining thousand can't be pay to win ... pay to win means having an advantage over the rest ... it doesn't make sense for "everything" to have an advantage over "everything" ... some are at an advantage which puts the rest at a disadvantage ...
your solution of "just play the remaining thousand vehicles which aren't pay to win" doesn't make any sense either ... the problem is not with playing these pay to win vehicles, so that not playing them would solve it ... the problem is playing AGAINST them ...! and those remaining thousand (of course not all of them) have to face pay to win vehicles ... 
for example it's not possible to play helicopter EC without facing ka-50 ...

Calling vikhr a minor advantage in "lower tier" heli EC is just ridiculous ...

and those 4 were just some very obvious and blatant examples . you want more examples? A2D in the lower T-54 SB tank event ... which is even more OP than Wyvern was two years ago ... (and I have both of them) 

Now of course, the game is not pay to win in every single BR and game mode combination ... but overall, it is pay to win ... 

As for repair costs, you are right, but only in theory ... in practice, at high tiers, you need an extremely high K/D to make a "profit" off of them without premium account ... repair costs are so high that in many vehicles if you die once, you will lose SL even with a 4:1 KD ... so premium account is pretty much a must unless you are willing to regularly "farm" SL at lower tiers to then play the higher tiers for a bit ... but for me personally this isn't that big of an issue ... I just either buy premium account or farm SL at lower tiers to play the higher tiers ... and Gaijin has to make money in some way as well ... (and this doesn't give an absolute advantage in the fight either ...)

 

Overall it is most definitely not pay to win, i'm not sure we are playing the same game so we will have to agree to disagree here. 

 

Repair costs for top tier are not that bad in my opinion with the exception of certain vehicles which you have to be mindful of such as some of the Swedish ones.

 

6 hours ago, chaosticket said:

So it is a serious GRIND GAME then. Oh well thats honest at least. I think it may be better to give up on War Thunder then. Ive been avoiding trying it for years because I was afraid it was going to be another money-drain, and you tell me it is..

Grinding isnt fun by itself, but what you grind for like better equipment or new abilities. It would be extra frustrating working just get to the point where I can play tanks unique to War Thunder, such as tier 6+ Cold War tanks or maybe with Anti-tank missiles. I dont want to spend years just to get to equal progress.

 

 

If you are interested in the higher tier stuff it can be somewhat of a grind however you can get through the early ranks relatively quickly free to play. I cannot recall how long it takes to earn a Tier 10 in the other games but I would imagine it is similar here, perhaps longer in some of the larger tech trees.

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21 hours ago, ItssLuBu said:

 

This game is way too variable to put money down on it. In gambling games like poker game you can at least WIN Cash, so there is some chance of reward.
Ive gotten some games where Ive gotten 9 kills, 4 captures, and #1 spot on the team, and other games my tanks (maybe even all 3) are One-Shot-Killed and I earn almost nothing.
Does any game balance exist?

Its really noticeable that there unlike WOT War Thunder doesnt allow upgraded guns. I think youre supposed to unlock and use ammunition types. That hurts as the #1 important thing in most games is cutting down combat times to make the game into Rocket Tag. Sometimes(for better or worse) that happens in any game(its how I get killstreaks), other times I can shoot someone 10 times looking for crew members and not find them because I didnt bring Explosive ammo. "I need a bigger gun" is a constant the thought and really the game motivation.

Tank Destroyers are decently fun to play because they are are most likely to have improved firepower between each vehicle.
SPAAGs are not well suited for anti-tank combat, but they are at least fun to try out. That will probably wear off very quickly because the game is 90% Ground targets. Do they work in Air Arcade mode?
Tanks seem to be the most boring vehicle type because of the huge gaps between real upgrades. Maybe 1 upgrade per Rank, and all the stuff in between is just there to extend the grind.

Special note: Why are all the turret speed so varied? Some are basically worthless with 4 degrees-per-second and then others are close to 35 and they are the same ranks.

Edited by chaosticket

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I have been playing since 2012.

This game is entirely free 2 play, with nothing really important that you can buy for Gold in one tech tree, that isn't available for free in another. Mostly.

If you feel the need to earn GE . .you can do that in the almost daily tournaments and countless competitions.

You can get the full War thunder experience for Free.

If you have the desire to spend money on a premium package, please do, but heed my words

It wont give you any great advantage in game play and entering into a high tier match with no experience will leave your wrecked.

Start at the bottom tiers and learn the game first . .then jump into higher tiers.

If you wanna play for free . .you gota play good.  

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43 minutes ago, chaosticket said:


Special note: Why are all the turret speed so varied? Some are basically worthless with 4 degrees-per-second and then others are close to 35 and they are the same ranks.

That is actually what their rotation speed was in real life. Tanks are at least attempted to be modeled on real data and performance. No magic gun upgrades or massive improvements while grinding toward all modifications. A spaded tank is better but not much in most cases. 

 

Its a grind game. It is pay to get what you want quickly. It requires a bit of time to get good at.

 

I don't find it any more offensive in cost than WoT and it can be free to play. The difference is there is no race when grinding a vehicle. They don't give you parts for repairs or extinguishers. That is a massive disadvantage. For about $1-3you can buy those or earn them for free in a few games. Not having the best ammo is annoying but not game breaking. 

 

If you aren't really looking at buying into top tier I wouldn't worry about the debate above. 

 

I wouldn't compare gameplay to WoT. They are very different games. If you are not really into tanks this might not be your game. Its more of an enthusiast game than a "gamers" game. 

Edited by Galen503
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It depends on why you do not want to play or are tired of playing WoT. If you are tired of the grind, unbalanced one sided games, the fact that you never seem to do well and get destroyed quickly then I think this game will not be for you it is hugely frustrating, grindy, you have to sink a lot more hours in to progress than WoT, if you do not like artillery in WoT then here it is just as bad with the bonus of planes attacking you as well.

It is not really complicated but depends on a whole lot of RNG which is claimed not to be in the game but shells will disappear, a whole host of other technical issues which erode the gameplay and things which in a lot of cases defy explanation. 

Just as any game people will trumpet and defend it till their dying breath and will accept no criticism.

It appears that you have already dipped your toe in the water and played a few games, if these cause you annoyance, frustration and even anger then it does not get any better.

As for the SPAA  they do function ok for their intended role but with no armour and open tops they are easily destroyed by air mgs and cannon as well as tank mgs, cannon and main guns, but often a round will pass through you doing little damage. If it is a cannon armed SPAA like a German type with the armoured piercing rounds they are absolutely lethal to tanks especially lower tiers, the round used is a very rare round that was in very short supply due to the materials used but this is a realistic game so you have entire belts of the stuff. In fact a lot of the cannon armed tanks PZ11 is a good example can end up doing that very realistic circle of death just like WoT.

It is up to you to continue or start playing but I would think of why you do not enjoy WoT anymore as this game will not address or solve those reasons and will most probably be exactly the same or even worse in regard to those reasons.

Edited by Wummele1
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Its far worse than I feared. War Thunder seems just be too unbalanced to be fun. Ive have some really good games, but Im already getting into matches where I am actually LOSING PROGRESS because of broken economics(no kills=lose money). Ive been on a losing streak for several hours today and Im feeling ready to quit altogether. I wouldnt be able to endure going backwards over and over, day after day.

Im still a rookie and It already feels impossible. I havent even purchased a Rank 2 vehicle yet.

I dont want to compare War Thunder to World of Tanks, but comparing it to games in general War Thunder feels broken. Less like its made to be fun for anyone, and more like its for Hardcore Counterstrike fans.

 

Edited by chaosticket
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Like I told you, start at the bottom, it is impossible to lose money at Tier 1, you look at something and you will get paid, and the reserve vehicles cost nothing.

You can spend as much time as you like at this tier and learn all the nuances of the game.

If you rush through this part of the learning curve, you will not be able to survive the later tiers, mentally or economically.

My kid started to play WarThunder AB tanks when he was about 8 and he ended up unlocking the top tier tanks over the next 2 years for free.

Its a game where you take your time and learn real stuff.

You see those crossed swords under your name on the left, where your says 140, those are the battles you have fought.

Now take a look at the people you are talking with and who are helping you and giving you advice.

War Thunder is about the journey, not the destination.

 

 

 

Edited by Twisted
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12 minutes ago, Twisted said:

Its a game where you ... learn real stuff.

 

I agree with the rest of your posting, but this is nonsense...

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5 hours ago, chaosticket said:

Its far worse than I feared. War Thunder seems just be too unbalanced to be fun. Ive have some really good games, but Im already getting into matches where I am actually LOSING PROGRESS because of broken economics(no kills=lose money). Ive been on a losing streak for several hours today and Im feeling ready to quit altogether. I wouldnt be able to endure going backwards over and over, day after day.

Im still a rookie and It already feels impossible. I havent even purchased a Rank 2 vehicle yet.

 

 

i don't get it

repair costs are nothing at this tier and i'm pretty sure the game is still holding your hand at this point

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Casual player just started in summer this year.

 

Not paid yet and have nearly filled out Tier 2 on three nations so far. I'll probably stick there for a while because it's mostly WW2 tanks and those are the ones I like - plus some of the early Cold War ones.

 

If I want a bit of fun with short/cheap repairs I've got Tier 1 Italy and Sweden spaded and don't want to go beyond that with either of them at the moment.

 

Oh yeah, some days I get multiple kills some days I get shot in the face repeatedly. It's a game go with it. :)

 

My only bits of advice are Expert your crews and learn the maps - watch more experienced players on Youtube to see where they go.

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1 hour ago, Dodo_Dud said:

 

I agree with the rest of your posting, but this is nonsense...

 

Come down to SB and step into a cockpit, then tell me about nonsense

Well I can answer that for you, you will say, I don't do Aeroplanes, and that is fair enough, I don't do ships or tanks.

But you have spent 4 years in Arcade, you did not progress to RB, where at least you needed to recognize tanks and spot their movement

And then onto SB, where you needed to be able to differentiate between friend and foe.

Instead you stayed where it was safe and continued to rely on the little green cross to tell you where to shoot and the big red marker to tell you where the enemy is.

War Thunder offered you more, you just did not want it, that's on you and your choice to play in that style.

War thunder has a lot to offer, you just need to look for it.

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1 hour ago, Twisted said:

Come down to SB and step into a cockpit, then tell me about nonsense

 

And still, none of it is real. I have been "flying" on "simulators" since 1983 but I have not learned anything in warthunder about reality. Its a game. A nice one, but just a game.

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Well then you should know that there is a reason for success in the flight SIM genre, that they were able to simulate reality back in 1984 and here they are again in 2020 and they can do it again. The thing is, you need to know what you are trying to simulate. If you are trying to simulate flipping cockpit switches and taxiing down taxi tracks I agree that War Thunder is no help there.

 

Once again, flinging your mouse around for years and 80K battles isn't going to teach you anything.

 

Had you ventured into RB and then on SB, you would have found out what war thunder has to really offer, since you didn't, I guess you are not interested.

 

That again is your choice, War Thunder offered, you didn't accept and remained satisfied being flown around by the Instructor.

 

Anyway back to the OP:

 

War Thunder will let you do it the way you want, you can do it like the gentle man above and have it forever hold your hand, or you can up your game and continue to grow through out your War Thunder journey. If you focus on KD Ratios and economy and repair costs, you will live in a world of never ending torture and never enjoy yourself. You want to forget about those things and focus on vehicles you like and want to master.

 

The tech tree is like a puzzle, that you will unlock, picking vehicles that match your style and learning them and getting good with them. By the time you are finished mastering it and starting to enjoy it, you will find that the next is already unlocked and you have the SL to get it.

 

If you approach it as a race, that is to be finished in the shortest time, you will be sorely disappointed and the task will seem impossible.

 

Remember, there is no end game in War thunder. Take your time, it is not a race, it is a journey to be savored.

Edited by Twisted
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