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19 hours ago, AngelPiret said:

You sure? .50 cals have broke off a wing of my plane with a little small burst countless of times

If the burst is focalized to a specific portion of that wing, sure. My initial argument was more in the light of : HE rounds bring an AOE damage component, which means the player using such armament is allowed a bit of leeway in his aim and still be able to effectively focalize down a component of the enemy airplane to down it, due to overlapping AOE damage from the subsequent hits.

Edited by ghyslain
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Now, what does need a fix (it is broken and bugged) DESPERATELY are the hispanos, just like anything with HEF-SAPI and any shell with a long fuse delay (e.g. Ho-401). This problem seems to be very old.

The files for hispanos are wrong, which reflect in it having close-to-worthless shells in what should be the best belts against air targets.

A stopgap solution would be to greatly reduce the fuse delay of the affected shells.

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10 hours ago, Pinguim01 said:

Now, what does need a fix (it is broken and bugged) DESPERATELY are the hispanos, just like anything with HEF-SAPI and any shell with a long fuse delay (e.g. Ho-401). This problem seems to be very old.

The files for hispanos are wrong, which reflect in it having close-to-worthless shells in what should be the best belts against air targets.

A stopgap solution would be to greatly reduce the fuse delay of the affected shells.

I've flown a lot recently in EC6 in a Sea Hawk that have 4xHispano V and I do not a slightest problem killing my enemy.
Jets are in general more durable than props and sometimes I have non-fatal hits but as soon as I get a good aim - a burst gets things done.
Hispanos just lack one-hit potential of MG151s - you have to aim them a little bit more and that it. This also means that if you aim in non-vital part of big planes like bomber, etc - they won't wok.
Aim at engine, cockpit, control surfaces and they will kill those big targets too.

Everyone assume that since MG151 can kill target no matter where it hit, suddenly all gun should do that.

EDIT:
this is how effective 6000RPM of 20mm are:

 

For comparison even fastest firing HIspanos have below 1000RPM which means that 4 of them shoot well below 4000RPM and with earlier models this can be as low as 3000RPM

Edited by przybysz86
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@przybysz86 What you said makes no sense. I made my point specific by giving details - the problematic shell - but you disconsidered that.
1) "I can get kills" -  i will just say this: no one claimed otherwise. The claim is that at least one of the shells is broken, HEF-SAPI.

2) "They just lack one-hit potential" yes and? if you read the rest of thread, you'd notice I just did the exact same argument in favor of .50. However, the .50 has no problematic rounds.
 

6 hours ago, przybysz86 said:

Everyone assume that since MG151 can kill target no matter where it hit, suddenly all gun should do that.

I have no idea how you thought this strawman was ok. I raised attention to a shell with fuse delay that doesn't work (check linked thread below).

It's a nice video, but its point is lost on me (regarding this discussion).

For continued discussion on the broken rounds, refer to this thread:

I guess you wanted to type a quick reply and didn't read properly what you were replying to.

TLDR: .50 are ok, Hispanos are not ok.

Edited by Pinguim01
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@Pinguim01 I might indeed have replied a bit too fast since I've rushed between battles.

I don't want this to feel like hijacking the 50 cals thread but I believe that relative effectiveness of other guns is a factor in the discussion.

According to US period manual SAPI should be able to penetrate pilot's armour, fuel tanks or engine compartment and have INCENDIARY effect on those parts increasing chance of fires.

unknown.png

 

They are not referred as SAP_HE but SAPI although as per manual quoted their impact power should be sufficient to damage spars, etc.

Now - how it is in WT compared to pure HEFI (as currently for Hispano mk V):
they have 30% less explosive
they have half the blast radius

they have marginally weaker shrapnel effect
they have 0.5mm fuze threshold (aka less RHA equivalent won't trip them) and 1m fuze delay
they have 2.5x higher chance of causing fire on hitting fuel-tank, engine, etc.
they have 2x higher penetration (4mm vs 2mm on HEFI)

Only part I am not sure about is fuze delay since WT do not use time but distance and no matter what speed bullet travel (not sure if bullets slow down with range in WT but maybe not).
In WT bullet have speed of 824m/s which means that fuze delay is 1/824 which is ca 1.2 millisecond - not that unrealistic. Even if we assume that at extreme ranges bullet fly half the speed - that's still 2.4ms

Overall it does look like OKish implementation. Btw - they have 60% "fire chance" compared to M20 50cal APIT - if anywhere, I'd say problem might be here. Maybe it should be higher
Also 4mm pen feel low for something to pen pilot's armour

Sadly I couldn't find solid data to back my "thoughts" :)

Edited by przybysz86
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Yeah sorry for the thread hijack, but it's a good opportunity to move to a more pressing subject (imo heh).

First, thanks for sharing info on the real thing @przybysz86!

Second, I get that you are trying to understand the stats in gamecard/datamine, but tests show that they don't work. no damage at all in many cases. You can check this exact discussion in the thread I linked above, around page 5 (Cannons: Revisited). There is also a lot of evidence there that taken together indicate something is not working at all. My guess is that however the game interprets the line fuzedelay=1.0 , it is not working. Other broken shells share a equal/higher than 1.0 for fusedelay. But as other mods have stated, we can only guess what is the exact relation between the blk files and game engine.

I guess we could continue the discussion there if necessary, since it is a problem that can affect all modes and it will bring attention to the evidence-gathering that has been done already over there.

Thread link again just in case

Cheers

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26 minutes ago, Pinguim01 said:

Second, I get that you are trying to understand the stats in gamecard/datamine, but tests show that they don't work.

I would be very cautious to use RB "experience" as base - also it's word against word. For me their work for you they don't.

Reason why I would not use RB as base for any DM bug reporting is that instructor in RB can just ignore a lot of damage that would've been fatal for plane in SB.
just watch any RB video and you will see (which good dose of probability) that they can fly 10-15mins with orange engine leaking oil/water and continue to fight while in SB in most planes you will struggle to stay airborne.
Also, any wing, etc damage that would make plane very hard to control in SB (and certainly combat-unworthy) might not be noticeable to RB player in way other than his turn rate is now a bit worse.
In SB many of my kills come from that kind of damage - just put a good burst into enemy wing and you can instantly see they struggle to fight effectively and often sooner or later start falling into a spin.
Same is for engines - in SB when I put a good burst into enemy's engine and I see him lose water and oil and leak looks substantial - I just no longer bother chasing them. More often than not - 5mins later I get kill when they crash.
In RB not only instructor allows you to perfectly fly very damaged plane but maps are smaller significantly increasing chance that enemy will RTB.

But getting back to Hispanos - they are very effective against control surfaces and things like wing cover. If you hit enemy plane in a tight turn he will more often than no snap into unrecoverable spin, etc - something that will never happen in RB. Also - I feel like 50% of my Hispanos kill are when I just shoot enemy elevator off :D

Works for both fighters and bombers and from my experience, even couple rounds do the job - I had many such kills in my mk Ib Typhoon  when I snap-shot enemy passing in front of me and instantly ripped his whole horizontal stabiliser and elevator clean off.

Only problem is with bombers since you have to aim for modules but that's it. Other than that - I really like Hispanos in anti-fighter role as they are

Edited by przybysz86
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51 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

For me their work for you they don't.

Let me clarify this point.
They are problematic for me, for senior technical moderators, for the people that recorded the videos for evidence and, so far, everyone else I talked about this issue directly, which include Sim.

While generally Sim is better for guns that don't outright rip aircraft in half, that isn't the problem with the broken shells we are referring to. 
If SAPI and fuze delay is the problem, then still you would be able to get satisfying damage when other shells connect. So I don't see the logic in your argument, it will work eventually. The problem is not that the (e.g.) french M50 can't get kills, but that it does have a serious problem with at least one of its shells. You are not forbidden to like them, but it's clear from every perspective shown so far (both from datafiles and testing) that it has a serious problem which has not been fixed for a long time.

That thread is supposed to account for Sim as well afaik. If you have evidence that SAPI works in any capacity, you can send it there if you want. If it is the case, it would help better understand why it works in some cases and not in others.

Meanwhile, your position is just an unsubstantiated "It works for me™" regarding very general experience.
In other words: Dude, how can you not realize that there is at least one broken shell, despite all the evidence? :)

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I use American .50 cals all the time and, to me, they are fine as is. They are quite lethal and I find myself often getting kills from a distance with one well timed burst (this is using on planes armed with 6 x .50 cal M2 browning). The Japanese Ho-103 .50 cals are pretty weak, but I think that might not be too far off from reality and they too are OK as is. I don't fly Hispano armed planes enough to comment on those.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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