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fix the italian M42 (I have period documentation)(attempt 2 because attempt 1 was in the wrong catagory)


note - if you saw this in the general forum chat, this is literally just a copy and past of that article due to that appearently being the incorrect forum channel for this sort of thing. otherwise, I have no reason to edit it.

 

before anything else, my source: an article I was directed to on the Wayback Machine, which goes over the M15/42 Semovente in wonderful detail - https://web.archive.org/web/20160607033515/http://www.assocarri.it/Mezzi/Semovente_contraereo_M15-42.pdf

since it's originally in italian (makes sense) I've gone through the trouble to translate it using Google Translate. I know a little italian but Guseppe wasn't able to help me today.

reguardless, if you read this (it is a literal report from a italian commander who personally witnessed the vehicle and was part of the field trials of the system.)

 

the part that concerns me is that in War Thunder, the M15/42 is both incorrectly named, and does not use the right type of ammunition feeding - (end of page 5/beginning of page 6):

 

 

"The model adopted for the self-propelled anti aircraft vehicle had been developed by Isotta Fraschini since 1942, especially to allow the use of metallic belts of 6 disintegrating meshes, which ensured, for each barrel, a shooting rate of 600 revolutions per minute."

 

unfortunately, they didn't think to write down the average length of each belt, but it can be assumed these were of the disintegrating link type, and I would assume that when speaking of "6 disintegrating meshes", it means 6 individual belts, linked together. even if we are talking about 12-50 rounds linked together and then multiplied for the number of guns means this thing could have had 288 (assuming 12 per belt) to 1200 rounds (assuming 50 per belt) ready to fire at any given time, making for quite possibly the most formidable low level SPAA built during WW2. this is something that needs to be corrected, and I would honestly say to contact the italian military (gaijin not us lowly internet people) to find out if there is any documentation on the amount of ammo in "ready" status, and how much in total was carried on an individual vehicle. even if it means bumping the vehicle up to 4.3 or 5.3, I still think that with the sheer amount of ammo, you would still be competitive as a SPAA at those levels. (if the kugelblitz can chill at those levels with only 2 mag fed Mk.103s I think a 2,400rpm (Combined ROF) 20mm aa system with belt feed would probably be pretty comfortable at that level.) 

I would reccomend having the "overheat" point be after shooting 48 consecutive rounds (edit - 48 rounds through each gun, not in total for all 4 guns. that would be dumb.), although i would reccomend adjusting this based on how that affects the gameplay.

I hope you see this and will hear me out.

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Hi,

   This is a historical issue.

 

Please take note of the referencing standards used by the Developers.

Quote

Historical Issues Referencing Information

 

The required number of References depends on the type of sources presented:
OEM Manuals    -  User Manuals / Repair Manuals / Factory Manuals etc (Flight/Pilot/Maintenance Manuals, Engineering Drawings etc) - Historically acknowledged reference sources - single source is required. (Preferred)
Authored works   -  Reference Books on collections of vehicles/aircraft/ships ('coffee table books') Biographies, Specialist Books, "Expert" opinion publications, websites, industry magazines etc - at least two unrelated sources required.*

 

*Please be reminded that Wikipedia or other private Websites are generally not considered as reliable sources.

 

  • Please ensure the references haveReport/Document Type, Report/Document Name, Author, Date, ISBN/ISSN, relevant Pg No's etc - so our Historical consultant can review and check the accuracy of those documents against the substantial Gaijin Historical Database and Reference Sources.
  • Please provide scans of all pages referenced and a scan of the front cover of publication/book.  
  • For Web sources. Please provide the link to the actual relevant section or document.  If this is not possible and only higher links can be referenced then please provide page or title information to locate the relevant reference.
  • Photographs need to be fully referenced.

 

The current reference is apparently missing the cover page and the title/author information etc. 

 

You will need to provide this before the report can proceed.

 

I have moved this report to the correct area.


Cheers,

 

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On 02/09/2020 at 18:09, KnightoftheAbyss said:

Hi,

   This is a historical issue.

 

Please take note of the referencing standards used by the Developers.

 

The current reference is apparently missing the cover page and the title/author information etc. 

 

You will need to provide this before the report can proceed.

 

I have moved this report to the correct area.


Cheers,

 

that's the Wayback Machine link. it's the full thing, I just decided to focus on the most relevant part to my argument rather than posting the entire article. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160607033515/http://www.assocarri.it/Mezzi/Semovente_contraereo_M15-42.pdf

Vincenzo Meleca was the officer in charge of evaluation of the M42 in north africa, and this is a retype of his report on the statistics of the vehicle in the field during 1942.

Edited by AManAndHisTank

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(if you pardon my word) xxxx it here's the whooooooole article, translated to english. I only have Google Translate at my disposal, so I apologize for how rough it can get. 

 

(Page 1)
           Self-propelled M 15/42 "Contraereo"


Vincenzo Meleca

The experiences gained above all in Northern Africa, with hunting and i
RAF fighter-bombers attacking our tanks almost undisturbed,
convinced the Royal Army to equip itself with an anti-aircraft vehicle capable of
accompany the tank units also on the line of fire. The specs were though,
as usual, based on maximum savings, so it was decided not to design
the means from scratch, but to be based on the M-15 cell, as was done for i
self-propelled counter-tank M-75.
In 1943 an interesting realization appeared, represented by the medium tank
“Contraereo”, obtained by mounting on the hull of the M15 / 422
, a polygonal turret,
with 4 20 mm Isotta Fraschini machine gunners (Scotti patent).
(at bottom of page, in the reference section -
1
 1st tank captain, Vincenzo Meleca served as an explorer platoon commander in the 19th Btg. Cor. is
as tank company commander in the 4th Btg. Wagons.
2
 The M15 / 42 was the natural evolution of the M 14/41, making changes to the propulsion system to the latter wagon
(adopting the more powerful FIAT-SPA 15TB M.42 petrol engine with real 170 HP), with the main armament (with a
lengthened version of the 47 mm piece, 47/40 Mod. 38) and to the hull (redesign of the rear
of the hull by adding thicker armor plates, an access hatch on the right side instead of the left, one
smoke box in the back, some differences in the design of the casemate and five supports for
20 liter external petrol containers. The Royal Army had time to put 82 M15 / 42 tanks into service, too
112 to 248 were built. Production continued even after the armistice, and between 28 and 40 units were
used by German forces as PzKpfw M 15/42 738 (i))
(Page 2)
The hull was identical to that of the original tank, apart from the suppression
of the secondary armament of the two twin machine guns in the Breda casemate mod.
1938 8 mm caliber and other small modifications.
This anti-aircraft medium should have been introduced at the rate of one tank per
platoon, in order, in fact, to counter the Anglo-American fighter-bombers on the
battlefield and approach marches.
The first (and perhaps the only 3
) model produced was presented to the Study Center in the first
months of 1943 and, in the following March, it was registered in the Royal Army and
assigned to the VIII Autieri Regiment of Cecchignola (Rome).
After the armistice it was confiscated by the Germans (who were almost certainly inspired by
this project in their subsequent studies, particularly those that led to the
design and construction, in 1944 of the Flakpanzer IV / 3 “Wiberlwinds”) ed
used until April 1945, where it operated in Austria, in the Teupitz area, for the
air defense from the V Armored Mountain Corps of the SS (“V-SS Volunteer
Gebirgskorps ") against the Soviets ..
Hull, rolling train and turret
The hull, in fully bolted steel sheet, was similar to that of the
The M15 / 42, essentially with the only modification of the addition of a plate
additional front battleship, to cover the compartment where the tank was placed
the twin system of Breda Mod. 38 8 mm machine guns.
The thickness of the armor ranged from 14 to 42 mm, the pilot's seat was on
front of the hull on the left.
The suspensions consisted for each side of four articulated bogies of two wheels
mounted in two complexes supported by semi-elliptic springs, The engine was in the part
(Page 3) rear of the hull, coupled to a manually operated gearbox
with eight forward and two reverse gears.
The rolling train had the drive wheel in the forward position, the return one
back, eight rubber-coated supporting rollers and three track-guiding rollers for dragging a
26 cm wide track
Plan view of the arrangement of the systems of the M14 / 41, substantially identical to those
of the M15 / 42 The position of the pilot's and gunner's seats inside the hull are indicated
by the dotted lines in the drawing reproduced above. (from: www.modellismopiu.it)

(Page 4) - The open turret was completely different from the tank above, where the main cabinet was housed. Polygonal with plates welded, the turret, unprotected at the top and swiveling for 360 °, had a certainly greater bulk in height
(Page 4) - The open turret was completely different from the tank above, where the main cabinet was housed. Polygonal with plates welded, the turret, unprotected at the top and swiveling for 360 °, had a certainly greater bulk in height
Armament
The armament consisted of a squared machine gun system Scotti - Isotta
Fraschini 20 mm, with elevation from -5 to + 90 °
Designed in 1932 by engineer Alfredo Scotti, who then ceded the patent (but only for
abroad) to the Swiss company Oerlikon, the weapon was later developed in Italy by Isolde
Fraschini in 1938. The Mod. 1939 version installed on a candlestick carriage was
used by the Regia Aeronautica for the defense of the installations and by the Regia
Marina embarked and in fixed installation, including twin 4
.
The weapon was also adopted by the Dutch army, which, pressed by war needs, in December 1939 ordered at the Isotta Fraschini 100 guns, complete with five thousand ammunition per weapon, on a field carriage, with reserve to order another 100 copies (which will then be ordered in March 1940). Of these, 46 specimens, renamed by the Dutch 2 tl no.2, they were delivered between January and May 1940, with the last 11 copies being they are supplied in a rather fortunate way on May 14, with a German invasion already underway.

(Page 5) Although less performing than the competitor Breda 20/65 Mod. 1939, the
it was easier to build and maintain; for this reason, once the war began, the
creation of Scotti aroused new interest in the military commands and was ordered in
some hundreds of units: this version on rotated carriage, called Mod. 1941, was
produced by Isotta Fraschini and by Officine Meccaniche in about 300 specimens and,
after the armistice, it was used by the Wehrmacht as 2-cm Scotti (i) against the
Yugoslav partisans. Specimens of war prey were also used by the army
British. He then remained in service with the Italian Army after the war.
The main features of the S-IF 20/70 machine gun were the following:
Weight: 227.5 kg
Length: 2275 mm
Barrel length: 1540 mm with 8 lines
right-handed
Caliber: 20 mm
Elevation: from -10 ° to + 85 °
Shooting angle: 360 °
Ammunition type: 20 × 138mm B
Ammo weight: 330g, bullet 136g
Firing rate: 250 shots / min
Muzzle velocity: 840 m / s
Maximum range: 5500 m
Power supply: plate (variants, a
drum and belt)
The model adopted for the self-propelled anti-aircraft was developed by Isotta
Fraschini since 1942, especially to allow the metal belt feeding to
(Page 6) disintegrating links, which ensured, for each barrel, a firing rate of 600
strokes per minute 5
.
The main features of the M 15 “Contraereo” were the following (in brackets
data referring to the M15 / 42 tank):
Dimensions and weights
Length: 5.04 m
Width: 2.23 m
Height: approx. 2.55m (2.37m)
Weight: approx. 14.7 t (15.5 t)
Performance
maximum speed: 40 km / h
autonomy: 200/220 km
ford: 1 mt
slope: 50% (60%)
step: 0.8 mt
trench: 2.1 mt
Powertrain
Engine: Fiat-Spa 15TB M.42 V8 a
petrol
Power: 170 hp (192 hp at the bench)
Weight / power ratio: 12.39 hp / t
Armor
max 50 mm, min 14 mm
Armament
4 machine gunner Scotti - Isotta Fraschini
M41 20/70 from 20mm
Crew
3 men (4)

These performances, given the changed operational needs and the changed technical characteristics of the aircraft, would have made it interesting for aeronautical use, but the difficulties of assembly on existing aircraft meant that it was preferred the Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20 mm
(Page 7) Bibliographic sources
- Pafi, Falessi and Fiore "ITALIAN ARMORED 1939-45 - History of armored vehicles"
- Nicola Pignato, Filippo Cappellano "The combat vehicles of the Italian Army"
 Volume second (1940-1945)
- Ivo Pejčoch - Armor 9, Italy, Spain 1919-1945, Ares / Corona, ISBN: 978-80-86158-55-6

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