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Same Breda-safat 12.7mm gun's bullets have different performance in ships and aircrafts


A new boat MAS 561 has got correct penetration values ( and according to data also HE filler for IAI) for Breda-SAFAT machine guns, while Breda-SAFAT for planes are still underwhelming. 

 

shot_2020.08.27_08.45.33.jpg

 

Spoiler

shot_2020.08.27_08.45.30.jpg

 

shot_2020.08.27_08.45.31.jpg

 

shot_2020.08.27_08.46.21.jpg

 

Clog

 

Data on HE filler for the same IAI bullet for naval and air (Btw Ho-103 uses this bullet as well):

Spoiler

The naval Breda-safat 12.7mm IAI(HE) bullet::

"bullet": {
      "mass": 0.0375,
      "caliber": 0.0127,
      "speed": 760.0,
      "Cx": 0.15,
      "maxDistance": 3000.0,
      "explosiveType": "tnt",
      "explosiveMass": 0.0011,
      "normalizationPreset": "default",
      "ricochetPreset": "default",
      "stabilityThreshold": 0.05,
      "stabilityCaliberToArmorThreshold": 5.0,
      "stabilityReductionAfterRicochet": 0.5,
      "stabilityReductionAfterPenetration": 0.3,
      "bulletType": "he_ball",
      "slopeEffectPreset": "ap",
      "hitPowerMult": 3.0,
      "onHitChanceMultFire": 8.0,
      "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
      "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
      "explodeTreshold": 3.0,
      "explodeHitPower": 7.5,
      "explodeArmorPower": 2.5,
      "explodeRadius": [0.03,0.1],
      "shutterDamage": true,
      "shutterDamageRadius": 0.2,
      "shutterAmount": 8,
      "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
      "shutterHit": 2.5,
      "nearArmorPower": [2.0,150.0],
      "midArmorPower": [1.0,600.0],
      "farArmorPower": [0.5,1000.0],

 

The aircraft Breda-safat 12.7mm IAI bullets:

"bullet": {
          "mass": 0.0375,
          "caliber": 0.0127,
          "speed": 760.0,
          "Cx": 0.15,
          "maxDistance": 1500.0,
          "normalizationPreset": "default",
          "ricochetPreset": "default",
          "stabilityThreshold": 0.05,
          "stabilityCaliberToArmorThreshold": 5.0,
          "stabilityReductionAfterRicochet": 0.5,
          "stabilityReductionAfterPenetration": 0.3,
          "bulletType": "he_i_ball",
          "slopeEffectPreset": "ap",
          "hitPowerMult": 3.0,
          "onHitChanceMultFire": 8.0,
          "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
          "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
          "explodeTreshold": 3.0,
          "explodeHitPower": 7.5,
          "explodeArmorPower": 2.5,
          "explodeRadius": [0.03,0.1],
          "shutterDamage": true,
          "shutterDamageRadius": 0.2,
          "shutterAmount": 8,
          "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
          "shutterHit": 2.5,
          "nearArmorPower": [2.0,150.0],
          "midArmorPower": [1.0,600.0],
          "farArmorPower": [0.5,1000.0],

As you can see, they use same bullet, the weight is same, the speed is same but naval IAI bullet has 0.0011kg TNT but aircraft one does not have it.

 

Pls consider data used for a boat to correct ammo parameters for Breda-SAFAT used on planes.

Edited by _Condottiero_
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1582527969_GK8KH1U(SPKNGD5X__RL.thumb.jp1150755838_@OMX_NV5XQ1LDIV8)JNBQ.thumb.j

In game, Italian navy and aircrafts use same Breda-safat 12.7mm MG, and they use same bullets, but they have different penetration. The aircraft's Breda 12.7mm API should be same with navy one.

Also, the Navy Breda-safat 12.7mm MG and Aircraft one both have IAI bullet, but navy one has correct HE filler in IAI, but aircraft one has no HE filler in IAI.

Here is the navy Breda-safat 12.7mm MG's IAI bullet::

 "bullet": {
      "mass": 0.0375,
      "caliber": 0.0127,
      "speed": 760.0,
      "Cx": 0.15,
      "maxDistance": 3000.0,
      "explosiveType": "tnt",
      "explosiveMass": 0.0011,

      "normalizationPreset": "default",
      "ricochetPreset": "default",
      "stabilityThreshold": 0.05,
      "stabilityCaliberToArmorThreshold": 5.0,
      "stabilityReductionAfterRicochet": 0.5,
      "stabilityReductionAfterPenetration": 0.3,
      "bulletType": "he_ball",
      "slopeEffectPreset": "ap",
      "hitPowerMult": 3.0,
      "onHitChanceMultFire": 8.0,
      "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
      "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
      "explodeTreshold": 3.0,
      "explodeHitPower": 7.5,
      "explodeArmorPower": 2.5,
      "explodeRadius": [0.03,0.1],
      "shutterDamage": true,
      "shutterDamageRadius": 0.2,
      "shutterAmount": 8,
      "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
      "shutterHit": 2.5,
      "nearArmorPower": [2.0,150.0],
      "midArmorPower": [1.0,600.0],
      "farArmorPower": [0.5,1000.0],

We can see, they have 0.0011kg TNT in bullet.

However, in aircraft one, they have same mass, same speed, but different filler:

"bullet": {
          "mass": 0.0375,
          "caliber": 0.0127,
          "speed": 760.0,
          "Cx": 0.15,
          "maxDistance": 1500.0,
          "normalizationPreset": "default",
          "ricochetPreset": "default",
          "stabilityThreshold": 0.05,
          "stabilityCaliberToArmorThreshold": 5.0,
          "stabilityReductionAfterRicochet": 0.5,
          "stabilityReductionAfterPenetration": 0.3,
          "bulletType": "he_i_ball",
          "slopeEffectPreset": "ap",
          "hitPowerMult": 3.0,
          "onHitChanceMultFire": 8.0,
          "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
          "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
          "explodeTreshold": 3.0,
          "explodeHitPower": 7.5,
          "explodeArmorPower": 2.5,
          "explodeRadius": [0.03,0.1],
          "shutterDamage": true,
          "shutterDamageRadius": 0.2,
          "shutterAmount": 8,
          "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
          "shutterHit": 2.5,
          "nearArmorPower": [2.0,150.0],
          "midArmorPower": [1.0,600.0],
          "farArmorPower": [0.5,1000.0],

We can see there are no HE filler in IAI(it should be 0.011kg TNT).By the way, the Japanese aircraft Ho-103/104 also use same Breda IAI/HEI in game, their datas are also incorrect:

"bullet": {
          "mass": 0.0375,
          "caliber": 0.0127,
          "speed": 760.0,
          "Cx": 0.15,
          "maxDistance": 1500.0,
          "normalizationPreset": "default",
          "ricochetPreset": "default",
          "stabilityThreshold": 0.05,
          "stabilityCaliberToArmorThreshold": 5.0,
          "stabilityReductionAfterRicochet": 0.5,
          "stabilityReductionAfterPenetration": 0.3,
          "bulletType": "he_i_fuse_ball",
          "slopeEffectPreset": "ap",
          "hitPowerMult": 3.0,
          "onHitChanceMultFire": 10.0,
          "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
          "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
          "explodeTreshold": 3.0,
          "explodeHitPower": 7.5,
          "explodeArmorPower": 2.5,
          "explodeRadius": [0.03,0.1],
          "shutterDamage": true,
          "shutterDamageRadius": 0.2,
          "shutterAmount": 8,
          "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
          "shutterHit": 2.5,
          "nearArmorPower": [2.0,150.0],
          "midArmorPower": [1.0,600.0],
          "farArmorPower": [0.5,1000.0],

The Ho-103's HEI bullet is same with Breda-safat's IAI bullet so it should be reworked too.

 

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  • Pony51 changed the title to Same Breda-safat 12.7mm gun's bullets have different performance in ships and aircrafts
4 hours ago, Sakai_sabu said:

Japanese aircraft Ho-103/104 also use same Breda IAI/HEI in game, their datas are also incorrect:

4 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

Btw Ho-103 uses this bullet as well

 

It does not.  This has been conclusively proven false.

The stock Japan did buy in 1937 was spent by 1938.  Japan created their own, original IAI round.

 

4 hours ago, Sakai_sabu said:

The Ho-103's HEI bullet is same with Breda-safat's IAI bullet so it should be reworked too.

This was reported over a year ago.

 

 

This report forward,

 

However we really need CLOG files of using both weapons in combat (normally would ask for CLOG first, but this is urgent)

I will leave this report open for those CLOG files.

Pony51 (Posted )

Fixed! \o/ https://warthunder.com/en/game/changelog/current/1321

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1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

However we really need CLOG files of using both weapons in combat (normally would ask for CLOG first, but this is urgent)

I will leave this report open for those CLOG files.

Are test-flight Clogs ok?

I made a test-drive in MAS 561(destroyed the first boat) and a test-flight in C.202 (destroyed 2 allied planes).

Clog

Test-flight screenshots

Spoiler

shot_2020.08.27_17.06.17.jpg

 

shot_2020.08.27_17.09.41.jpg

 

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6 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

Are test-flight Clogs ok?

Yes.

 

Start game, run test, quit game.

This insures the CLOG is only the test and not other games.

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7 hours ago, Pony51 said:

Yes.

 

Start game, run test, quit game.

This insures the CLOG is only the test and not other games.

 

13 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

 

Clog

Test-flight screenshots

  Reveal hidden contents

shot_2020.08.27_17.06.17.jpg

 

shot_2020.08.27_17.09.41.jpg

 

Click the link and Clog will be downloaded. (It contains only tests of mgs and nothing else)

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7 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

 

Click the link and Clog will be downloaded. (It contains only tests of mgs and nothing else)

 

Forwarded, thanks.

 

I noticed there is another difference:  (Naval)

      "maxDistance": 3000.0,

      "bulletType": "he_ball",
and (Air)

      "maxDistance": 1500.0,

      "bulletType": "he_i_ball",

 

 

Need some more historic data here.

I would like to CONFIRM this is the same machine gun, ship and aircraft, using the same ammo.

 

13-jpg.74149

And verify TIPO SPECIALE and TIPO PERF. SPECIALE
 

From L to R:

Type Ordinary (ball), Type Tracer (T), Type Piercing (AP), Type Special (HE?), Type Piercing Special (AP-I?)

 

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The airplane Breda and Ho-103 have unrealistic ballistic coefficient. 0-500m it’s like 0.200 which is far too low and then after 500m ballistic coefficient is like 0.800.

 

just no gaijin it should be same coefficient all the way. Gradual energy drop off. Right now Breda and Ho-103 for planes feels like the bullets hit invisible wall at 300m.

 

the naval Breda shows what a more realistic ballistic coefficient would be for Ho-103 and Breda. Both Breda and Ho-103 share same cartridge 

 

Conclusion:

Naval Breda, Aerial Breda and Ho-103 should have same ballistic coefficient because the airplane ballistic coefficient is incorrect and ancient. Hasn’t been corrected since 2012.

Edited by Laurelix
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7 hours ago, Pony51 said:

I would like to CONFIRM this is the same machine gun, ship and aircraft, using the same ammo.

 

Breda SAFAT were built only in one type.

Others types of Breda SAFAT MGs simply don't exists....

So they're the same and use the same ammo. You can also ask historical consultants.

Edited by Guest

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6 hours ago, Laurelix said:

Naval Breda, Aerial Breda and Ho-103 should have same ballistic coefficient because the airplane ballistic coefficient is incorrect and ancient. Hasn’t been corrected since 2012.

 

Certainly the Breda should be, but the Ho-103 is a different. 

Breads is based on 1919 model Browning, Ho-103 is based on 1921.

Ammo alone does not make performance. 

 

5 hours ago, Redberseker said:

Breda SAFAT were built only in one type.

A link to list of Italian weapons is welcome next time.

 

Will use Williams, Anthony G.; Dr. Emmanuel Gustin (2003-02-01). Flying Guns of World War II.

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3 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

Certainly the Breda should be, but the Ho-103 is a different. 

Breads is based on 1919 model Browning, Ho-103 is based on 1921.

Ammo alone does not make performance. 

 

A link to list of Italian weapons is welcome next time.

 

Will use Williams, Anthony G.; Dr. Emmanuel Gustin (2003-02-01). Flying Guns of World War II.

Yet Ho-103 and Breda in WT have matching ballistics and penetration.

Issue is, both of their ballistics are unrealistic having 0.200 at 0-500m and then like 0,800 from 500-1500m. its nonsensical.

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1 hour ago, Laurelix said:

Yet Ho-103 and Breda in WT have matching ballistics and penetration.

Issue is, both of their ballistics are unrealistic having 0.200 at 0-500m and then like 0,800 from 500-1500m. its nonsensical.

 

 

I see.

Honestly do not know how the numbers are used, will use what you said.

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18 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

 

I see.

Honestly do not know how the numbers are used, will use what you said.

It’s ballistic coefficient. The lower the number the faster the velocity is lost over distance. High ballistic coefficient means the projectile retains velocity better over distance.

 

Whatever the ballistic coefficient it should be the same coefficient all the way through. The fact the coefficient is 0.200 at 0-500m and then it’s roughly 0.900 at 500-1500m points to flawed ballistics 

Edited by Laurelix
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20 hours ago, Laurelix said:

It’s ballistic coefficient. The lower the number the faster the velocity is lost over distance. High ballistic coefficient means the projectile retains velocity better over distance.

 

Whatever the ballistic coefficient it should be the same coefficient all the way through. The fact the coefficient is 0.200 at 0-500m and then it’s roughly 0.900 at 500-1500m points to flawed ballistics 

 

How compare with MG 131?

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15 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

How compare with MG 131?


Well MG-131 will have worse ballistic coefficient than Ho-103 or Breda because MG-151 is a 13mm x 64mm cartridge compared to 12.7mm x 81mm

 

This is the ballistics for MG-131

2-D65-CDD7-26-A0-4-D71-ABDC-D36-A28-F48-
 

The Ballistic Coefficient remains the same all the way through no matter the distance 

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On 30/08/2020 at 04:38, Laurelix said:

The Ballistic Coefficient remains the same all the way through no matter the distance 

I meant game code comparing the BC of both.

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15 hours ago, Pony51 said:

I meant game code comparing the BC of both.

MG-131, Ho-103, Breda are all using the same broken ballistics coefficient values.

 

MG-131 would have different BC compared to the Italian / Japanese 12.7mm.

 

But all need their BC fixed so it’s one value all the way through 

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On 01/09/2020 at 03:55, Laurelix said:

MG-131, Ho-103, Breda are all using the same broken ballistics coefficient values.

 

So what is the BC of the 131?

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22 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

So what is the BC of the 131?

Well according to the source it’s around 0.250-0.300 BC for MG-131

 

in WT it’s 0.200 roughly 0-500m and then like 0.800-0.900 from 500m-1500m. There shouldn’t be two ballistic coefficients.

 

japanese / Italian 12.7mm also have this faulty double BC modelled when I would expect 0.400-0.500 BC at least from this cartridge 

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Noted.

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On 27/08/2020 at 23:27, Pony51 said:

 

Forwarded, thanks.

 

I noticed there is another difference:  (Naval)

      "maxDistance": 3000.0,

      "bulletType": "he_ball",
and (Air)

      "maxDistance": 1500.0,

      "bulletType": "he_i_ball",

 

 

Need some more historic data here.

I would like to CONFIRM this is the same machine gun, ship and aircraft, using the same ammo.

 

13-jpg.74149

And verify TIPO SPECIALE and TIPO PERF. SPECIALE
 

From L to R:

Type Ordinary (ball), Type Tracer (T), Type Piercing (AP), Type Special (HE?), Type Piercing Special (AP-I?)

 

 

On 28/08/2020 at 10:48, Pony51 said:

 

Certainly the Breda should be, but the Ho-103 is a different. 

Breads is based on 1919 model Browning, Ho-103 is based on 1921.

Ammo alone does not make performance. 

 

A link to list of Italian weapons is welcome next time.

 

Will use Williams, Anthony G.; Dr. Emmanuel Gustin (2003-02-01). Flying Guns of World War II.

"*muahahahahas in igor* MASterrrrr IT'S ALIVE"

 @BlueBeta knows the WHOLE business when it comes to breda safat. HE has loads of info. even was gonnna 3d print one of the rounds. Not to mention he worked out the volumetric numbers on the rounds. Someone should bring him in the convo! 

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Spoiler

 

On 15/04/2020 at 19:40, angelomorte said:

does  the 0.8 grams of he  filler in the breda safat round include just the petn in the fuze or also the he filler in the rest of the round? Ik the us ordnance for italian rounds didn't even list the second charge. had to find it in the japanese ordnance info on the round when used by japan.

f  uze.jpg

see here.jpg

Ho-103(JPEG).jpg.a27bd99383ef6a5025f681d1a0f2a27d.jpg

circlce.png

circle.jpg

 

On 16/04/2020 at 05:23, BlueBeta said:

About the italian 12.7 "Scoppiante" from the reports is not so easy do determinate what bullet is taken into account.

Explaination:

During the wars (spanish and ww2) Italy produced a large amount of 12.7 shell types depending on the year and the factory, even the same bullet can change the weight depending by the factory.

The factories were: SMI and BPD

The "Scoppiante" (HE) was produced in these forms:

 

Scoppiante (HE)

127esplosivarossa35.jpg

8.jpg

 

127bredarossa.jpg

Was produced by both factories.

Weight: 34,9g (SMI)

               36g (BPD)

Lenght: 49,6mm

Diameter: 13,03mm

Total lenght: 108,9mm

Case lenght: 81,1mm

Caseback diameter: 19,52mm

Produced untill 1940 (so it will be used by all the planes entered in service before that year like the SM79 for example)

Ball with hemispherical head, tombac plated steel jacket, internal steel cup with explosive mixture, short fuze screwed to the detonator.

 

Scoppiante Incendiaria (HE-I)

127blubombatanuova.jpg

005.JPG

127nuovablu.jpg

Weight: 34,9g (SMI)

Lenght: 49,6mm

Diameter: 13,03mm

Total lenght: 108,9mm

Case lenght: 81,1mm

Caseback diameter: 19,52mm

Produced untill 1939

It's identical to the first except that the cup contains an incendiary mixture with the explosive.

 

Scoppiante Incendiaria Tracciante (HE-I-T)

bpd40sesplosivaincendiariagialla.jpg

6.jpg

 

127bredaesplincendtrac.JPG

Weight: 37,45g (SMI)

               37.6g (BPD)

Lenght: 53,15mm

Diameter: 13,03mm

Total lenght: 108,9mm

Case lenght: 81,1mm

Caseback diameter: 19,52mm

Produced from 1939 till over the war

Flat head ball with steel jacket tombac plated, rear tracer fuze type along with brass screwed detonator, below which liee the explosive and thermite.

 

Scoppiante Incendiaria Tracciante Autodistruggente (Selfdestroy HE-I-T)

bpd40sesplosivaincendiaria.JPG

EXBLUdef.jpg

127bredaesplincendtracauto2.JPG

Weight: 37,2g (SMI)

               37,5g (BPD)

Lenght: 52,6mm

Diameter: 13,03mm

Total lenght: 108,9mm

Case lenght: 81,1mm

Caseback diameter: 19,52mm

Produced from 1939 till the end of the war.

Flat head ball with steel jacket tombac plated, rear tracer above wich there is a small charge of detonating, brass short fuze screwed with detonator, to below which it's located the explosive and thermite. After the launch the heat produced by the combustion of the tracer generates the explosion of the small charge causing the self-detonation.

 

Fuzes:

w037.jpg

Left type used for:HE, HE-I, HE-I-T self-d.

Right type used for: HE-I-T

 

Case Powder:

127polv2.jpg

7.7g (SMI)

7.8g (BPD)

 

Detonator:

D3.JPG Unique for all.

 

So, as you can see you have to put the weights to the correct model represented on the report, with these comparison it will be possible to re-create the shells.

 

On 17/04/2020 at 09:18, angelomorte said:

 More potential sources in this thread so there are two possibilities on the percentages as i may have misread the sources two on the list list petn as a filler....it references a photi in the source that I'm unable to check without buying the source presumably it lists which shell is which since it's labeling them by number I'll try to find said picture.

God is with us lmfao the image was in the link i just posted...

beikWj7.jpg

So now we know for sure I read it correctly. Also links to all his sources!

 

On 17/04/2020 at 09:25, angelomorte said:

That poster also calculated the filler for the japanese round like we can for the italian one. 

 

On 17/04/2020 at 09:26, BlueBeta said:

I already did some (rough) math

20200417_151957.jpg

 

Knowing the density is 1.77g/cm3 and the inside space is around 0.7cm3, 0.8g of circa 2:1 compression of PETN is possible 

 

On 17/04/2020 at 09:27, angelomorte said:

JATR-No 24.pdf 3.73 MB · 1 download

That is the source with percentages

 

On 17/04/2020 at 09:36, BlueBeta said:

Look at my previous message.

According to the dimensions 0.8g is quite correct and possible.

 

On 17/04/2020 at 09:57, BlueBeta said:

The TNT equivalent is around 0,86g

 

On 17/04/2020 at 18:16, angelomorte said:

 

```

       "bullet": {
          "mass": 0.0375,
          "caliber": 0.0127,
          "speed": 760.0,
          "Cx": 0.15,
          "maxDistance": 1500.0,
          "bulletType": "he_i_ball",
          "hitPowerMult": 3.0,
          "onHitChanceMultFire": 8.0,
          "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
          "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
          "explodeTreshold": 3.0,
          "explodeHitPower": 7.5,
          "explodeArmorPower": 2.5,
          "explodeRadius": [0.03,0.1],
          "shutterDamage": true,
          "shutterDamageRadius": 0.2,
          "shutterAmount": 8,
          "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
          "shutterHit": 2.5,
          "nearArmorPower": [2.0,150.0],
          "midArmorPower": [1.0,600.0],
          "farArmorPower": [0.5,1000.0],
          "relativeVelArmorShift": [200.0,1000.0],
          "groundCollisionEffect": "cannon_air_hit",
          "groundFxScale": [0.4,0.6],
          "hitpower": {
            "HitPower10m": [1.0,10.0],
            "HitPower1000m": [0.95,1000.0],
            "HitPower1500m": [0.85,1500.0],
            "HitPower2000m": [0.3,2000.0],
            "HitPower2500m": [0.2,2500.0],
            "HitPower3000m": [0.1,3000.0]
          },

```

Of specific note are the `"bulletType": "he_i_ball"` line and `"onHitChanceMultFire": 8.0,` line.

 

On 17/04/2020 at 18:36, BlueBeta said:

About the mass i see it's from the "new he" type, i have to see other types of HE in game and AP before thinking

 

On 17/04/2020 at 23:04, angelomorte said:

 

This is from an argument I had in reddit the guy and I ended up collaborating finding those sources in the Japanese threads. I was complaining how us tracer ammo has more exlosive chance than italiam he ammo and about velocity.

 

So, first off, DeMarre isn't applicable to small arms. It's an empirically-derived formula using naval cannons, and like most empirically-derived formulae, the further you get outside the data ranges it was derived from, the worse the accuracy gets.

Second, penetration is not 1:1 related to kinetic energy.

Third, the Axis .50s being complained about in those threads are a collection of cartridges that are anemic to begin with. 13x64mm is basically the same powder charge you'd use to drive a .30 cal rifle round, but driving a .50 caliber round. It *should* have the ballistics of a shuttlecock. 12.7x81mmSR isn't much better, being a sharply-tapered, neckless cartridge holding about half the propellant that a US 12.7x99mm does. To make matters worse, the Italian loadings used relatively short, round-nosed bullets, which would give them terrible ballistic efficiency compared to the fairly long spitzer-type projectiles used in US .50s

As for your request for other rounds, here is M23 incendiary:

```

       "bullet": {
          "mass": 0.035,
          "caliber": 0.0127,
          "speed": 1040.0,
          "Cx": 0.15,
          "maxDistance": 2000.0,
          "bulletType": "i_ball_M23",
          "hitPowerMult": 0.3,
          "onHitChanceMultFire": 16.0,
          "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
          "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
          "explodeTreshold": 0.5,
          "explodeHitPower": 9.0,
          "explodeArmorPower": 3.0,
          "explodeRadius": [0.05,0.1],
          "shutterDamage": true,
          "shutterDamageRadius": 0.25,
          "shutterAmount": 8,
          "shutterArmorPower": 3.0,
          "shutterHit": 2.0,
          "relativeVelArmorShift": [200.0,1000.0],
          "groundFxScale": [0.3,0.5],
          "hitpower": {
            "HitPower10m": [1.0,10.0],
            "HitPower1000m": [0.95,1000.0],
            "HitPower1500m": [0.85,1500.0],
            "HitPower2000m": [0.3,2000.0],
            "HitPower2500m": [0.2,2500.0],
            "HitPower3000m": [0.1,3000.0]
          },

```

Twice the fire chance, and 20% more explosive power, which seems pretty reasonable given the M23 packed a whopping 5.8g of IM28 filler, as opposed to the 0.8g of PETN in Italian HE rounds.

As for the Akan 13.2mm:

```

    "bullet": {
      "mass": 0.042,
      "caliber": 0.0132,
      "speed": 900.0,
      "explosiveMass": 0.0035,
      "Cx": 0.15,
      "maxDistance": 7000.0,
      "bulletType": "he_frag_t_ball",
      "recoilMultiplier": 0.35,
      "hitPowerMult": 1.5,
      "effectiveDistance": 3000.0,
      "relativeVelHitShift": [300.0,3000.0],
      "explodeTreshold": 0.1,
      "explodeHitPower": 13.0,
      "explodeArmorPower": 3.0,
      "explodeRadius": [0.042,0.42],
      "fuseDelayDist": 0.1,
      "shutterDamage": true,
      "shutterDamageRadius": 1.3,
      "shutterAmount": 15,
      "shutterArmorPower": 6.0,
      "shutterHit": 3.0,
      "groundCollisionEffect": "cannon_air_hit",
      "groundFxScale": [0.4,0.6],
      "hitpower": {
        "HitPower10m": [1.0,10.0],
        "HitPower1000m": [0.95,1000.0],
        "HitPower1500m": [0.85,1500.0],
        "HitPower2000m": [0.3,2000.0],
        "HitPower2500m": [0.2,2500.0],
        "HitPower3000m": [0.1,3000.0]
      },

```

That's firing 13.2x99mm Hotchkiss, which is a big cartridge slinging a big projectile. I wasn't able to find manuals on the filler type/weight for it, but assuming an actual HE filler, rather than LE like IM28, those numbers seem plausible.

 

 

 

 

On 17/04/2020 at 23:19, angelomorte said:

Note how the breda safat miss the explosive mass line

 

On 18/04/2020 at 04:42, BlueBeta said:

Yes i was watching this. Is not normal because breda ones are pure HE, the US are incendiary without a real explosive inside (is an high incendiary mixture). The italian ones should have less incendiary value but much more explosive one since PETN is the most powerful explosive than TNT

"explosiveMass": 0.0008,

this value should be added

Right now i didn't done researches but the value on the hotchkiss seems a little bit strange

 

On 18/04/2020 at 04:53, BlueBeta said:

For what i know the japanese 13.2mm hadn't 13.2x99 but 13.2x96 shells and the muzzle velocity was lower (between 780 and 800m/s depending on the type)

 

The bullets of the italian and japanese 13.2mm were identical but the italian ones (that were real 13.2x99) had a greater muzzle velocity, and i know this for sure because the Breda M31 was used on ships and in some tanks too. So i see something strange here starting from the 35g of HE filler... 35g???? Like a 47mm?

As these kind of weapons in game are very old (about 8 years at least) maybe they aren't correct in data but because they are "playable" they are still in these conditions...

 

On 18/04/2020 at 18:34, angelomorte said:

The akans irl were like flying landmines so it's possible they had that much he filler. The way that guy explained it is the filler the us tracer uses is a low explosive? Tho the breda are missing the he mass value. That's why I say they are conaidered iai in game regardless of name or what gaijin says. Hence why I tried to find sources because Ik they aren't exoloding at all. The japanese rounds have same velocity in game so I don't wanna be that guy who is responsible for Japans rounds getting nerfed when they are already missing he  filler.Is museo Storico della Motorizzazione Militare the best tank museum in italy? I wanna suggest to chieftain he do inside chieftan hatch on italian tanks.

OH YOU MISREAD THE AKANS lol it's 3.5g 

 

 

some snipets from bluebeta's and I's convo. he already said i could share this ofc.

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On 09/09/2020 at 21:59, angelomorte said:

some snipets from bluebeta's and I's convo. he already said i could share this ofc.

 

Thanks.

We have all that data in records, the issue is how the game models the round.

 

I understand it is wrong, but what is wrong?

Ballistics and HE content.

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About the issue of ballistics.

 

Historically, .5 inch Vickers machine guns have used 12.7 x 81 cartridges, similar in ballistic performance to the Breda and Ho-103, which use 12.7 x 81 SR cartridges. The 12.7 mm Vickers machine gun can be seen on British Navy boats in the game. The penetration power of an aircraft machine gun drops sharply at a distance of 500 m.

 

Vickers 12.7 x 81 / Breda 12.7 x 81 SR Cartridges Penetration Power Comparison

 

Navy

Navy

Air

Air

 

Vickers 

Breda

Breda

Ho-103

10 m

24 mm

21 mm

18 mm

18 mm

100 m

24 mm

20 mm

17 mm

17 mm

500 m

21 mm

17 mm

6 mm

6 mm

1000 m

18 mm

15 mm

5 mm

5 mm

1500 m

16 mm

13 mm

3 mm

3 mm

2000 m

15 mm

12 mm

3 mm

3 mm

 

Screenshot of 12.7 mm Vickers machine gun

Spoiler

RQ3yD01.jpg

 

UeU3QtF.jpg

 

3Nd0le7.jpg

 

yrWCqnF.jpg

 

.5 inch Vickers Armour-Piercing & Semi Armour-Piercing

Quote

The flat based bullet had a cupro-nickel clad steel envelope with a hardened steel core in a lead/antimony sleeve. It weighed 580 grains. The propellant charge was 130 grains of nitrocellulose and velocity was 2,540 feet per second.

 

The proof requirement was that seven out of ten shots to penetrate 18mm of armour plate at 100 yards at a normal angle of attack and an additional seven out of ten to penetate 14mm of armour plate at the same distance at 20 degrees angle of attack.

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-5-inch-vickers/-5-inch-vickers-armour-piercing-semi-armour-piercing

 

Reference for 12.7 mm Vickers machine gun

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_5-62_mk3.php

https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/great-britain-machineguns/vickers-5-eng/

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers.html

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-5-inch-vickers

 

Client log

2020_09_13_02_27_20__12340.clog

Edited by tester188@psn
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Thanks, will add additional items to the report.

 

I believe everything we need is received and forwarded.  

I will archive this post shortly.

 

If you have something more, post soon(tm).

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