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On 22/08/2020 at 14:42, Yedidya said:

I don't understand what makes you believe that Russia NEEDS Svinets-1...

There is not a single round, not even the CL3143, that can lolpen any tank everywhere. Every 10.7 tank turret is safe from even CL3143 unless you go for typical weakspots (I am talking about from the front at 500 meters). Those very same weakspots can be penetrated by even DM13s (Tier 1 Mod of the Leopard 2A4)

 

The majority of folks I have seen the past several days since the announcement of the T-72B3 Obr. 2016 who were demanding Svinets-1 were mostly players that only played Russia and had either a very bad win/loss ratio or actually a quite reasonable and close to average W/L ratio of that vehicle in Ground RB.

 

But what they all had in common was, the complaining about the Leopard 2A5 and M1A2 being OP. But never even have played the damn tanks or perform ****-poor in them.

 

Ranking of the strongest rounds from top to bottom that are being used by the 10.7 tanks

 

CL3143 - 625mm @ 10m 0°

OFL 120 F1 - 575mm @ 10m 0°

M829 - 491mm @ 10m 0°

DM33 - 481mm @ 10m 0°

3BM42 - 479mm @ 10m 0°

 

So because of 2mm less penetration statswise you complain that the DM33 from the Strv 122 and 2A5 are OP? Not sure what is wrong with you tbh.

 

Russia's new lineup of MBTs

 

BR 9.7

T-72B, T-72B Obr 1989 (Kontakt-5 at this BR - LOL), T-64B(V) - all with access to 3BM42

BR 10.0

T-80B - all with access to 3BM42

BR 10.7

T-80U, T-72B3 Obr. 2011/2016 - all with access to 3BM42

 

So if you want, you can have 6 tanks in your top tier lineup all with a 3BM42; there is no other nation that can have such an extremely strong lineup ammunition wise at top tier starting from 9.7; that is in my humble opinion exactly what defines POWERCREEP. Additionally, people complaining "but USA CAS is so strong and their Premium Apache spam" ... all I have to say is this --> KA-50, KA-52, Mi-28N, MiG-21SMT, MiG-21F-13, Su-7B... all three jets have extremely powerful S24s, both Kamovs have Vikhrs - the most broken, OP and historically incorrect ATGMs in the game and the Mi-28N with Atakas that are extremely strong as well. Yes, USA has a good CAS lineup, but one of the strongest CAS airplanes they have is hiding behind a 300GJN price tag in the market place, because it was an eventvehicle (the FJ-4B VMF)

 

USA

BR 9.7

M60 AMBT (eventvehicle with KE-W round - 583mm @ 10m 0° - but laughable armor)

BR 10.0

M1 Abrams (M774 - 357mm @ 10m 0°), M1IP (M833 - 395mm @ 10m 0°)

BR 10.3

M1A1 (M829)

BR 10.7

M1A2 (M829)

 

Germany

BR 9.7

Leopard 2K - (DM13 - 393mm @ 10m 0°)

BR 10.0

Leopard 2A4 - (DM23 - 410mm @ 10m 0°)

BR 10.7

Leopard 2A5 - (DM33)

 

 

Italy

BR 9.7

Ariete (P) - (DM33)

BR 10.3

Ariete, Centauro MGS - all with access to CL3143 and DM33

BR 10.7

Ariete PSO (CL3143 + DM33)

 

I totally agree with this. i just want to add France.... so if you excuse me:

France

BR 9.7

AMX 40 - (OFL 120 G1) 394 at 10m 0º.

BR 10.3

Nothing to see here.

BR 10.7

Leclerc (OFL 120 F1) 575 at 10m 0º.

 

CAS:

BR 10.3

Mirage IIIC - 1 NORD totally uncontrolable + SNEBS (ok rockets) + 1 premium helo with 4.3 km range atgm with 240 m/s. or the tech tree version with helfire.

Thats it folks, im sure it's russia who needs more bread!

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If it is up to me (and fortunately it is not) in War Thunder there would be only two tech. branches: NATO & USSR/Russian Federation. Historically accurate from the beginning to the end.

 

You don't like it?! Go play Armored Warfare, and spend your precious money there.

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I see now how War Thunder forums work, okay then T-72B3 should get the 3BM60 and all other tanks get plasma guns but Germany gets nuclear shells with 50000000 tons of explosive (because Germany suffers), okay? Seems fair to me from what I have learned from War Thunder forums. All tanks should get rounds that they historically use, giving tanks that they have never fired is stupid. At least give every country a round that is balanced as the CL3143 round. You people also forget that no armor is best armor in War Thunder.

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26 minutes ago, Leplivo said:

I see now how War Thunder forums work, okay then T-72B3 should get the 3BM60 and all other tanks get plasma guns but Germany gets nuclear shells with 50000000 tons of explosive (because Germany suffers), okay? Seems fair to me from what I have learned from War Thunder forums. All tanks should get rounds that they historically use, giving tanks that they have never fired is stupid. At least give every country a round that is balanced as the CL3143 round. You people also forget that no armor is best armor in War Thunder.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, But it's obvious that according to you and other Cronies, soviet / russians suffer, when they only got 5 new vehicles this update.

Sadly you only got 6 vehicles in the Soviet/Russian ground TT, that are able to fire 3BM42, (Crocodile tears), it's so unfair.

And by the looks of if, you want to make Italian high tier ground vehicles redundant.

 

 

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The soviet 9.7 and 10.0 tanks need to get 3bm42 removed to bring them in line with other nations tank lineups. All other nations have far worse shells if they bring their 10.0 or 9.7 backup vehicles. Equipping the whole 9.7 to 10.7 tech tree with top tier shells is kind of unfair.  

Edited by Thodin
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Soviet tanks do not need better rounds.

 

Even if their top round (3BM42) is not the best quality penetration (esp angled pen, leaving some odd moments where they fail, like Leo 2a5 UFP at an angle), the fact that they have 6 tanks (T-64B, T-72B, T-72B obr.89, T-72B3, T-80B, T-80U) with it is very good.

 

19 minutes ago, Thodin said:

The soviet 9.7 and 10.0 tanks need to get 3bm42 removed to bring them in line with other nations tank lineups. All other nations have far worse shells if they bring their 10.0 or 9.7 backup vehicles. Equipping the whole 9.7 to 10.7 tech tree with top tier shells is kind of unfair.  

Hmm. I disagree with removing their shells w/o any other input.

 

Their shells/armor are basically their entire advantage, seeming as they have lackluster mobility, poor gun handling, and lack of thermal imaging.

 

Perhaps this should be considered:

 

T-64B - Remove 3BM42, maybe add 3BM29 or 3BM32, perhaps move to 9.3.

 

T-72B - Leave as is. 

 

T-72B Obr 89. - Move to 10.0 (from 9.7)

 

T-72B3, T-80B, T-80U - Leave as is.

 

Other nations can receive filler tanks like M1A1HA/HC, or proper Leo 2a4 C-tech/Leo 2a4 b-tech. But nerfing Soviets by taking their uniqueness is not the way.

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45 minutes ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

I´m willing to lose BM42 on 9.7 soviet MBTs  in exchange for thermal sights any day.

Why would you?, since that shell will turn any other tanks breeh and whole hull to butter (exluding the strv 122), you just have to avoid the turret cheeks.

 

Edited by mursuttaja
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40 minutes ago, ColdMatches said:

But nerfing Soviets by taking their uniqueness (privilege) is not the way.

No?

I've seen many posts suggesting, that Ke rounds should be kept, one generation behind armour, to preserve some form of armour meta.

So why shouldn't soviets / russians be held back, all the same, as any other nation? give or take a few paper thick tanks with better shells.

6 vehicles with Top tier rounds, is quite a lot.

 

 

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The thing is, top tier tanks is one of the few places the soviet tree actually excels. If we're going to complain about anything, it should be the horrible air tree, or the completely useless TD line with 16 unplayable tanks in it (!)

 

Oh, and this whole ammo debate wouldn't be happening if Gaijin just did what players were asking for and added the T-90 (1992)

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23 minutes ago, watch_your_fire said:

The thing is, top tier tanks is one of the few places the soviet tree actually excels. If we're going to complain about anything, it should be the horrible air tree, or the completely useless TD line with 16 unplayable tanks in it (!)

 

Oh, and this whole ammo debate wouldn't be happening if Gaijin just did what players were asking for and added the T-90 (1992)

 

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2: .....................................................:facepalm:  Give to this guy the award for the joke of the yeah , he deserves it !

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11 minutes ago, Raldi92 said:

Give to this guy the award for the joke of the yeah , he deserves it !

What's so funny? Soviet top tier is pretty good, lots of nice lineups and fun tanks

 

and the T-90 is more interesting than the T-72B3 IMO, plus it would make more sense to limit it to BM42 since that's what it would have been issued in the 90s anyway

Edited by watch_your_fire
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18 minutes ago, watch_your_fire said:

What's so funny? Soviet top tier is pretty good, lots of nice lineups and fun tanks

 

Alot people still pretend that russian T-tanks are like underdogs, despite they're doing very well since half a year now. If you dare to say what they're truly like, they make jokes like this sad one. 

 

Ofc you're not wrong, the T-80's and the  T-72's are more than competitive. The air support is just the best currently ingame, no one can compete with Kamov helis and Mi-35's. In case of support vehicles they have just the best ones as well. Stuff like the Krizantema with its ground radar + thermals or the BMP-2 mod with 4 launch tubes surpass any other nation's ATGM vehicles by far.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Thodin said:

 

Alot people still pretend that russian T-tanks are like underdogs, despite they're doing very well since half a year now. If you dare to say what they're truly like, they make jokes like this sad one. 

 

Ofc you're not wrong, the T-80's and the  T-72's are more than competitive. The air support is just the best currently ingame, no one can compete with Kamov helis and Mi-35's. In case of support vehicles they have just the best ones as well. Stuff like the Krizantema with its ground radar + thermals or the BMP-2 mod with 4 launch tubes surpass any other nation's ATGM vehicles by far.

 

 

Agreed. As a soviet player, I'm far more concerned with the state of mid-tier vehicles than the (already stellar) top tier tanks

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4 hours ago, Thodin said:

 

Alot people still pretend that russian T-tanks are like underdogs, despite they're doing very well since half a year now. If you dare to say what they're truly like, they make jokes like this sad one. 

 

Ofc you're not wrong, the T-80's and the  T-72's are more than competitive. The air support is just the best currently ingame, no one can compete with Kamov helis and Mi-35's. In case of support vehicles they have just the best ones as well. Stuff like the Krizantema with its ground radar + thermals or the BMP-2 mod with 4 launch tubes surpass any other nation's ATGM vehicles by far.

 

3 hours ago, watch_your_fire said:

Agreed. As a soviet player, I'm far more concerned with the state of mid-tier vehicles than the (already stellar) top tier tanks

 

Unfortunately, there will always be those individuals who are extremely biased.  Who believe if they aren't winning 100% of games as a given nation, then they're being held back.  If the game were perfectly balanced, all vehicles would have a 50% win rate, regardless of nation.  

 

When it comes to ammunition, I'm a firm believer that, either everyone gets an equivalent LoL pen round, or no one does in my opinion.  It doesn't make sense to balance by restricting ammunition, except in cases where a nation simply doesn't have an equivalent round.  In these cases, thats what we have a BR system for.  For example, giving the M1A1/M1A2 Abrams M829A1, or the soviets 3BM59/60, isn't going to change the fate or play ability of the Ariete's.  The Ariete's can already be penned at over 2km by M829/DM33/3bm42/etc.  All the current ammo system does, is enforce an unhistorical armor meta, which seems to favor Germany and Russia.  As the IPM1, M1A1, and M1A2 armor are all under performing by about 50-60mm, against long rod ammo from a 30 degree side angle..  

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Just now, Conraire said:

All the current ammo system does, is enforce an unhistorical armor meta

I think you could make a decent argument that an "armor meta" is historical; if perhaps not necessarily how WT manages it. APFSDS and Composite armor went back and forth multiple times during the cold war and by the end of it Soviet tanks with K5 and Western turrets were rather well armored compared to the darts they would face.

I think the issue you're touching on at top tier is a similar situation to post-war tanks facing WW2 ones. Post-Cold War ammo makes mincemeat of Cold War armor. Seeing as how many folks (myself included) don't like armor nullified by high tech; I appreciate Gaijin's attempts to prevent a repeat of heat-fs vs. IS-3. 

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13 minutes ago, Ariesv said:

heat-fs vs. IS-3. 

Don't remind me :crying:

Downtier tier V heavies for all nations now plz

 

15 minutes ago, Ariesv said:

I think you could make a decent argument that an "armor meta" is historical; if perhaps not necessarily how WT manages it. APFSDS and Composite armor went back and forth multiple times during the cold war and by the end of it Soviet tanks with K5 and Western turrets were rather well armored compared to the darts they would face.

Mostly because the engagement distance IRL was ~2km greater than it is even in War Thunder's larger maps. If Gaijin can find a way to make big maps more effective for grinding, then we could see larger maps and a restoration of the "armor meta"

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Just now, watch_your_fire said:

Downtier tier V heavies for all nations now plz

 

Preach it!

Just now, watch_your_fire said:

Mostly because the engagement distance IRL was ~2km greater than it is even in War Thunder's larger maps.

Not even just that; the soviets where making their T-72A's invulnerable up to ~500m against what was probably the most potent apfsds round at the time: DM23/M111. Further, IIRC Kontakt 5+base armor could resist m829a1 at essentially pointblank range. I do not doubt Western turrets were similarly resistant.

Where I think 2km range does become especially pertinent thought is weakspot sniping. It's much harder to hit a dot on a speck than it is to hit the speck.

Edited by Ariesv
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Also I don't like to add that in real world you aim at a center point and let the dispersion do the rest. Under these conditions the decision to leave the LFP unarmored is very reasonable. Unlike the LFP shooting simulator that are tank games. This is why armor designs such as is2 and chieftain, challenger were still successful

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12 hours ago, Thodin said:

 

Alot people still pretend that russian T-tanks are like underdogs, despite they're doing very well since half a year now. If you dare to say what they're truly like, they make jokes like this sad one. 

 

Ofc you're not wrong, the T-80's and the  T-72's are more than competitive. The air support is just the best currently ingame, no one can compete with Kamov helis and Mi-35's. In case of support vehicles they have just the best ones as well. Stuff like the Krizantema with its ground radar + thermals or the BMP-2 mod with 4 launch tubes surpass any other nation's ATGM vehicles by far.

 

 

Helis that get rekt in GBRB almost imediatly by SPAA or planes, and you gotta understand that ATGM vehicles are not meta at top tier, they're very vulnerable..

Also, i dont want better ammo for this tank, only its realistic reload time, what we have now is a joke..

 

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15 hours ago, watch_your_fire said:

The thing is, top tier tanks is one of the few places the soviet tree actually excels. If we're going to complain about anything, it should be the horrible air tree, or the completely useless TD line with 16 unplayable tanks in it (!)

 

Oh, and this whole ammo debate wouldn't be happening if Gaijin just did what players were asking for and added the T-90 (1992)

T-90A still uses Svinets 3BM46 shells with 650mm pen and it already used them (3BM60) in the April fools event where Leopard 2A5 dominated.

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9 hours ago, Conraire said:

When it comes to ammunition, I'm a firm believer that, either everyone gets an equivalent LoL pen round, or no one does in my opinion.  It doesn't make sense to balance by restricting ammunition, except in cases where a nation simply doesn't have an equivalent round.

agreed.

9 hours ago, Conraire said:

All the current ammo system does, is enforce an unhistorical armor meta, which seems to favor Germany and Russia.

How did you come to that conclusion? since both Usa and Germany has Butter hulls, that small city maps and CQC maps in general, make 10 times worse.

Unlike the French with the Leclerc and brits with the Challenger 2F, these 2 have at least some armour on the hull, that almost nothing goes through.

But still the French has access to OFL 120 F1, like why?

 

I'd say it's mainly there to, the benefit of the russians, (perhaps).

 

 

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I don't play Leopards on those small cqc maps anymore. Its close to pointless with their non-existent hull armor vs. opponent shell types. Their pro's like commanders termals and strong turret armor have no use in Sweden, Ash River, Advance to Rhine etc. You typically encounter your enemies on a street, spotting / thermals are no issue and hulldown positions are almost non-existent. So they just shot the frontplate while you're still trying to aim for pixels with DM33.

 

The large maps we need to make commanders thermals, flanking and hull down characteristics to work, are just too rare.

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32 minutes ago, mursuttaja said:

Unlike the French with the Leclerc and brits with the Challenger 2F, these 2 have at least some armour on the hull, that almost nothing goes through.

But still the French has access to OFL 120 F1, like why?

You're unironically making a parallel between the Leclerc and the Challenger 2's hull ?

Both are comparable in term of LFP, as in, nonexistant, so far so good.

As you go up the LFP, you encounter the Leclerc's strongpoint, wich between the LFP and UFP, nothing goes trough that. On the Challenger, there's no such transition, you go from the butter LFP, to the strong UFP.

Said UFP is good for the Challenger, only the Ariete and the Leclerc can do something about it, other than that, it goes all the way to the turret, and create a decently strong face for the Challenger, with only the driver port to be a weakpoint.

On the Leclerc, the UFP is largest weakspot of the tank from the front that can result in an OHK reliably.

 

I think i found why the Leclerc got the OFL F1, beside the fact that you cannot limit it to HEATFS only, it's because it's armour coverage is **** poor, and there's nothing you can do about it.

And before this get spun into a "Challenger 2 better than Leclerc" piece. I find the Leclerc to be the superiour vehicle, but comparing the armour coverage, be it of the hull, or the whole tank, to the Challenger, makes for a ridiculous comparison.

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It 'can' use 3BM59/60 but Russian still uses 3BM42 as main KE ammunition.

And if you have better tanks(T-90A, T-90MS, T-80BVM), would you give fancy rounds to cheap T-72B3?

https://lenta.ru/news/2020/01/18/lekalo/

In early 2020, Russian contracted company 'to replace' 3BM42 with 3BM44M 'Lamka'.

So 3BM42 is still active duty round for modern Russian MBTs.

Edited by UNIT_normal
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