dinoferg

Do you think that enemy aircraft markers should be removed from air RB?

As you know, in ground RB there are no enemy aircraft markers and nobody has any trouble spotting them. It adds an air of mystery and realism to the battle. I think markers should be removed from air RB for the same reason although the aircraft would still be visible on the minimap. IMO it would help with seal clubbing as well, because you couldn't tell if it is a Blenheim or a Beaufighter, spitfire 1 or iib, BF 109 E or F until you are fighting it so it stops you being a beacon for any BF109 within 10 miles knowing that you are a lumbering Twin engine bomber, not a sleak boom and zoomer with powerful guns until you are within range. It will also increase the realism by a lot. Do you think that this would be a step in the right direction to making it playable? Do you think it will help with repair costs because you are not getting shot down all the time because your plane is vunerable and everybody can see and you become a magnet? What are your thoughts on my idea? 

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I doubt many people would want this, as it would require pretty much everyone to completely change their strategies for battles, and not necessarily for the better, since many people plan their fights around knowing the capabilities of an enemy plane. Something they wouldn't really be able to do if they could only see what kind of plane an enemy has by flying right next to it. You'd get plenty of people who'd be frustrated at being shot down by someone they didn't see coming, which could be a real problem with people who have problems with their vision or low quality screens/graphics. More casual players probably wouldn't be enthusiastic about having to constantly squint at the screen while slowly scrolling across the sky with zoom in order to catch a tiny black dot, which I should probably mention isn't visible past a certain distance. Because you'd only have a black dot to look at, it'd also be difficult for many players to see exactly how far away an enemy is, and if it's moving towards or away from them. I feel like the only group of players that this change could benefit would be bomber pilots who want to endlessly dunk on ground units without fighters coming in and crashing their party. I think that planes having no markers works in ground battles because the battle site is relatively small, so all the planes tend to gather around one area. In air battles, it could be a nightmare for people to try and find a flying speck over a battleground spanning dozens of kilometres in every direction. I think it goes without saying that if you want realism, go play sim or IL-2. 

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47 minutes ago, dinoferg said:

As you know, in ground RB there are no enemy aircraft markers and nobody has any trouble spotting them. It adds an air of mystery and realism to the battle. I think markers should be removed from air RB for the same reason although the aircraft would still be visible on the minimap. IMO it would help with seal clubbing as well, because you couldn't tell if it is a Blenheim or a Beaufighter, spitfire 1 or iib, BF 109 E or F until you are fighting it so it stops you being a beacon for any BF109 within 10 miles knowing that you are a lumbering Twin engine bomber, not a sleak boom and zoomer with powerful guns until you are within range. It will also increase the realism by a lot. Do you think that this would be a step in the right direction to making it playable? Do you think it will help with repair costs because you are not getting shot down all the time because your plane is vunerable and everybody can see and you become a magnet? What are your thoughts on my idea? 

Personally, especially in jet combat, I don't think this will work. It will force players to play games much more slowly and would also possibly extend games over literal hours. Especially with how fast everything is at top tier, you can't really do without distances. In ground RB the main objective for aircraft is CAS, which requires being concentrated over the cap zones. However in air RB with 64kmx64km locations against props and 128kmx128km locations in development? No thanks

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On 08/07/2020 at 20:42, dinoferg said:

in ground RB there are no enemy aircraft markers and nobody has any trouble spotting them. It adds an air of mystery and realism to the battle.

Theres no aircraft markers needed because not only are the Ground maps far smaller than every Air map, but the aircraft also spawn far closer to each other (easily within dot distance) and will only ever be heading to one place, which is why it's workable like that.

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Saying that no markers is fine in ground forces so it will be fine in air battles is the dumbest argument ever. Just compare the size of the maps. In GF all the fighting takes place in a roughly 2km by 2km by 2km cube, whereas maps in Air RB are usually 64km by 64km and normally people climb up to ~6km. 

 

Personally I played EC when it happened and it was the most tedious, annoying gameplay I can remember. You had to spend 10-15 minutes in complete focus looking for dots. Once you engaged in a dogfight, it's going to attract more enemies because 1)the guy is yelling for help, 2) two moving dots are easier to spot than one.

 

There are no tactics, no methods to outplay the enemy. It's dumb luck hoping you can spot somebody before they spot you and the gameplay is about 10 times slower than regular Air RB match and about 100 times slower than flying in ground forces.

 

If this is the experience you're looking for then perhaps you should consider playing sim, because Air RB with no markers is abysmal.

Edited by Rclz
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Would love to, the marker just spoil many possible tactic

using the sun and dive on an enemy? sorry marker show where you are

using cloud as surprise attack? doesnt work as long as one of their teammate lay eye on you

and if you try to sneak bomb and ground attack...oh boy

to make no marker workable, we have to replace RB with RB EC

Markerless in current RB (TDM), probably will spend the whole match searching for dot

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It would be better because the name marker allows you to select a target and then use "enemy tracking" which in my opinion is a crutch as the plane will maintain that target in front of you and removes maneuvering from the hands of the pilot. Ground rb and SRB have no markers and it is more of a challenge

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On 11/07/2020 at 21:57, Rclz said:

Saying that no markers is fine in ground forces so it will be fine in air battles is the dumbest argument ever. Just compare the size of the maps. In GF all the fighting takes place in a roughly 2km by 2km by 2km cube, whereas maps in Air RB are usually 64km by 64km and normally people climb up to ~6km. 

 

So? SIM EC AIR maps ae up to 100km to 100km if not bigger. There is no problem with finding enemy planes there. Noone is complaining about not finding enemy aircraft.

You can also see enemy planes up to 34km as dots if spotted by a friendly. If they can do that from Cockpit view than so can you.

 

On 11/07/2020 at 21:57, Rclz said:

Personally I played EC when it happened and it was the most tedious, annoying gameplay I can remember. You had to spend 10-15 minutes in complete focus looking for dots. Once you engaged in a dogfight, it's going to attract more enemies because 1)the guy is yelling for help, 2) two moving dots are easier to spot than one.

 

You need 10-15 mins to find dots? i play EC daily and it takes me less than a minute to spot someone. EC is a mission designn and it is the same for SB and RB. And spotting from inside the cockpit is even harder. So you might be exaggerating just a tiny bit.

 

On 11/07/2020 at 21:57, Rclz said:

There are no tactics, no methods to outplay the enemy. It's dumb luck hoping you can spot somebody before they spot you and the gameplay is about 10 times slower than regular Air RB match and about 100 times slower than flying in ground forces.

 

why? this makes no sense.

 

On 11/07/2020 at 21:57, Rclz said:

If this is the experience you're looking for then perhaps you should consider playing sim, because Air RB with no markers is abysmal.

 

yeah because sim is totally just RB without markers... you are reaching here.

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No. Go play SIM.

 

On 11/07/2020 at 18:31, Silent_Witch said:

using cloud as surprise attack? doesnt work as long as one of their teammate lay eye on you

I highly doubt you can set up a surprise attack without markers, also, clouds arleady make you lose your mark.

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28 minutes ago, kackadoo said:

the worst when you have a nice 1vs1 and then comes one and deletes you, because of markers

 

The game isn't built around 1v1s. This isn't your own personal war. You're the enemy. You shouldn't expect to have your 1v1 respected.

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On 14/07/2020 at 02:44, ChorizoBlanco said:

No. Go play SIM.

 

LOL yeah... Right because that is all the difference: markers. 

 

On 14/07/2020 at 02:44, ChorizoBlanco said:

I highly doubt you can set up a surprise attack without markers, also, clouds arleady make you lose your mark.

 

Why not?  You can see dots through clouds, all they do is remove the marker but the plane is still rendered. 

And the rendered planes are very visible even at far ranges... There is nothing stopping you from setting up a surprise attack. 

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1 minute ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

Why not?  You can see dots through clouds, all they do is remove the marker but the plane is still rendered. 

And the rendered planes are very visible even at far ranges... There is nothing stopping you from setting up a surprise attack. 

I was able to evade many attacker by flying low and near dense vegetation, my plane still render but could blend into the background and make good use of it

I think markerless are worth trying, at least in EC

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34 minutes ago, Silent_Witch said:

I was able to evade many attacker by flying low and near dense vegetation, my plane still render but could blend into the background and make good use of it

I think markerless are worth trying, at least in EC

 

Really? Having played a metric f***ton of EC I cn tell you that the dots of planes are much darker than any background in WT, you need to be blind not to see them. Maybe RB players simply aren't used to looking for them. 

 

If anything of this would be true and surprise attacks would be impossible or even hard without markers then why does it happen in SB all the time? My guess is the RB community is just so used to having markers, but but objectively they aren't needed. 

Edited by DerGrafVonZahl
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Needed or not needed they have been there for a looooooooooooooong time and there's no sign of them going away nor any pressing need for them to go away, so getting this heated about it looks absolutely silly. 

 

As an aside, people who prefer SB shouldn't be pushing for, or propping up the arguments of, changes to RB. You're not special. No one cares how long you've been here, no one cares about how many battles you have, no one cares how many posts you've made, no one cares what your rep is... 

Edited by RikersMightyBear
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8 minutes ago, RikersMightyBear said:

Needed or not needed they have been there for a looooooooooooooong time and there's no sign of them going away nor any pressing need for them to go away, so getting this heated about it looks absolutely silly. 

 

As an aside, people who prefer SB shouldn't be pushing for, or propping up the arguments of, changes to RB. You're not special. No one cares how long you've been here, no one cares about how many battles you have, no one cares how many posts you've made, no one cares what your rep is... 

 

True, but these people don't want SB they want RB without markers. And the argument that no markers malkes suprise attacks impossible is negated by suprise attacks existing in SB... so that argument can be made. Noone is trying to make RB into SB, i mean the difference between the two is much more than just markers. So the "go play SB" argument is stupid as well. So the question if suprise attacks exist without markers can be answered by what we observe in SB.

 

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1 hour ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

Really? Having played a metric f***ton of EC I cn tell you that the dots of planes are much darker than any background in WT, you need to be blind not to see them. Maybe RB players simply aren't used to looking for them. 

 

If anything of this would be true and surprise attacks would be impossible or even hard without markers then why does it happen in SB all the time? My guess is the RB community is just so used to having markers, but but objectively they aren't needed. 

Yes, I have been able to get away a lot of time in GF RB with those dark and dense vegetation, since EC is not permanent, no harm getting a try as a event, and I m pretty sure we have markerless RB event in the past. Two separate EC event running at the same time, one with marker and one without everyone happy

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Again, it's definitely worth a try, but I think it should be kept to events. Maybe if it was received warmly we could make it a separate game mode, as in fighter combat markers are still very important. Again though, this would basically make space bombing OP and might not create a balanced game mode due to the max render distance of about only 20 km.

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12 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

Again, it's definitely worth a try, but I think it should be kept to events. 

 

It's been done. I'm sure of it. Unless I'm going in to early senility I recall a while back playing a markerless Air RB.

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2 hours ago, RikersMightyBear said:

 

It's been done. I'm sure of it. Unless I'm going in to early senility I recall a while back playing a markerless Air RB.

 

There was no markerless AirRB. It was one session of markerless AirRBEC. It ended with mixed results.

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1 hour ago, BrassWolf said:

 

There was no markerless AirRB. It was one session of markerless AirRBEC. It ended with mixed results.

 

Wow only once? Guess I was just lucky to have not been on a WT break at the time.

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I found it an awesome event., but only when you got in to close range.  It was difficult to get to close range though.  You'd see a dot and it was somewhere between 2 and 20km (and you'd spend 10 minutes figuring it out).... :/

 

I like the markerless when you get in to actual combat.  They should have an option to turn off markers when you get close  (or at least minimize the big red marker thing to a little icon).

Edited by Measured
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6 hours ago, Measured said:

I found it an awesome event., but only when you got in to close range.  It was difficult to get to close range though.  You'd see a dot and it was somewhere between 2 and 20km (and you'd spend 10 minutes figuring it out).... :/

 

Yeah, it was one of problems. People chasing dots half a map away. 

Other problems was team killing, evading friendlies, stealing kills by finishing burning / leaking foes and camping airfields.

 

Ground pounders didn't like it much either. Attacking arties/pillboxes in forest became pain in @**, many died easily to fighters because they couldn't judge distance and even spot attacker in time to prepare for defense.

 

Although, there was who enjoyed experience. But majority of them were individuals lacking skill in aerial combat and relying on surprise attack. But even they complained there was too high level of friendly fire accidents.

 

In a whole weekend I didn't encounter any engagement sending shivers on body. Majority of my kills where with bogey pilot completely ignoring presence of me or loosing sight after simple yo-yo and entering straight steady flight. No prolonged scissors, no climbing spirals... Feeling I was fighting unskilled newbies did not give me up entire weekend.

 

Fuel/oil leak became death sentence. While everybody struggled to find a target, those black trails became attention attractors. And it doesn't matter if there is more planes in same direction (because they can be same as near same as far as other map side), plane with leaking fluids will be killed. And you'd better don't try to approach even friendly airstrip while leaking, cause there were high chances some friendly will attack you as target of opportunity.

 

Camping airfields never was so frequent. Without marker you could enjoy relative safety and airstrip provided you a steady flow of targets.

 

Overall, lack of markers slowed down action to extremes. 

Edited by BrassWolf
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What about a middle ground? 

 

Like you keep the marker, but:

- calling out a target doesn't give an immediate altitude information (such as 'engaging Bf-109 [6300m] )

- the distance is not shown unless assisted by a radar. Just got a basic fading system to let player know if <5, <10, > 10km.

 

The ease to lock and keep track of a target remain.

Distance, closing rate and altitude become more guestimates, but that goes for both attacker and defender.

 

 

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