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Since the Leo2k has to sit within range of top tier can we get a slightly better round for it?


17 hours ago, Baske_74 said:

So because multiple tanks at or around this br need better rounds, people feel that the 2K should not get a better round.

It's more that German mains of these forums have such an insanely skewed perspective on this game that it isn't even funny anymore.

 

The Leo 2K was doing fine before the patch with a pretty good win rate and these recent changes are just a flat out buff to the 2K even without it going down in BR. Now 10.3 is no longer a full uptier for it so it is more likely to see 10.0/10.3 games and not be fully uptiered. 9.3 is no longer dragged up to top tier games which makes filling out those 9.7-10.3 games a lot easier. Yet somehow German mains have managed to try and turn the Leo 2k not going down in BR into a "nerf" when in reality things only got better for an already good tank. WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION IF THE 2K NEVER APPEARED ON THE CHANGE LIST. It only became a problem once Gaijin had the idea to drop the BR of the 2K while raising the max BR did everyone all of a sudden start making these threads and complain pleading for Gaijin to drop the BR, because you people know that Gaijin loves to give hand outs to people who cry the loudest. And somehow we are here. Where moving up all of the competition of a tank in BR isn't enough. Gaijin needs to also drop the BR too because "it's just not fair". It doesn't matter if German tanks get better passively. No they need to be actively dropped in BR or else it isn't good enough.

 

17 hours ago, Baske_74 said:

Why do the Ariete and the STRV 122 have the clxxxxx round,  which is the Dm 43 or even 53, the most modern non DU 120MM round for NATO. DM63 just preforms the same at all temperatures.

The STRV 122 doesn't even have that round. You are just making stuff up to make your argument sound better. And do you want to know why the Ariete has CL3143? Because it's a garbage tank both IRL and in game. The Ariete PSO is the most modern tank that Italy has made IRL. They don't have any future additions after that. The PSO is Italy's answer to the M1A2C, Leo 2A7, T-14 Armata, Type 10, Type 99A, and K2. The Ariete needs it because the tank is slow, it has a garbage armor layout, whatever armor it does have is thin and doesn't protect against anything. Italy still needs to compete at top tier, but they don't have any better tanks to add, so the only thing Gaijin can do is give it better ammo. Also what fantasy land did you get "more pen tank DM53" when it doesn't even come close compared to IRL performance? First Strv 122 having m/95 and now this? Do you just throw out whatever your brain thinks sounds good for your argument before even checking to see if what you said is correct. Lets

 

17 hours ago, Baske_74 said:

The ussr tanks got a blanket Mango round accross the board at a third of the cost of nato top round.

Both BM42 and DM33 have the same ammo cost. In fact The BM42 on the T-80U is 10SL more expensive. Refer to what I just said above.

Edited by AnimeThighs
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I just found this topic about Leopard 2K thermal imaging

 

 

But personally I cant say that it is 9.7 or 9.3 worthy? 

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Holly hell, you guys really don’t see a problem with a tank that doesn’t have thermals having to fight the 10.7 top dogs?

 

and all the German main bashing. The 2K was not doing well before the change and is doing less so because it never has a chance of getting a down tier(it didn’t before but a lot of 9.3 vehicles know ALWAYS get a down tier)

 

Why is it getting a slightly better round to fight M1A2s and T-80U a bad thing? 

Edited by *CodyBlues
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I tested it yesterday with a 9.7 SPAA, had a task to kill some planes in ground rb. So I made a 9.7 lineup with that SPAA and played 5 matches to get the air kills I required for that task. Out of this 5 matches all 5 were 10.7 uptiers. Not a single one was a downtier or equal tier. Thats why the 9.7 BR (or 10.3 and 10.0) is totally pointless. 

 

The only solituion would be to give it access to top tier shells and get it its shared commander's and gunner's thermal device. In this case they can even up the BR to 10.0 or something like that...as if it matters anyways. 

 

9.7 = 10.7

Edited by Thodin
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49 minutes ago, *CodyBlues said:

Holly hell, you guys really don’t see a problem with a tank that doesn’t have thermals having to fight the 10.7 top dogs?

The soviet 9.7's also don't have thermals and they're doing as good or even better in stats than the leo 2k despite being significantly less mobile and with inferior gun handling. Leo 2k is to the T-72B what the Leo 2a5 is to the T-80U. In fact it should be theoretically even more favorable in the former case because the T-72B doesn’t have the edge over the 2k in forward mobility like the T-80U does over the 2a5.

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55 minutes ago, Ariesv said:

The soviet 9.7's also don't have thermals and they're doing as good or even better in stats than the leo 2k despite being significantly less mobile and with inferior gun handling. Leo 2k is to the T-72B what the Leo 2a5 is to the T-80U. In fact it should be theoretically even more favorable in the former case because the T-72B doesn’t have the edge over the 2k in forward mobility like the T-80U does over the 2a5.

They have their advantages and disadvantages but why does that mean the 2K shouldn’t get a slightly better round? Or at the very least get it’s thermals back.

 

also, how is the Leo’s gun better then the T-72B?

Edited by *CodyBlues
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I also see a lot of complaints about the Leopard 2K's survivability whenever 2K discussions start up, because the turret can bounce a shot every now and then. Apart from the KPz-70, this is this first vehicle in the German tech-tree since WW2 that has any armor, and even then it can be penetrated fairly reliably (probably about 70% of the tank from the front) by pretty much every tank cannon since BR 6.7.

It has mobility, a good gun (not the best at 9.7 though, not by a long shot), and a 20mm autocannon that can be useful for AA and taking out gun barrels at close range. This is in a vehicle with no line-up that will frequently be up-tiered against top-tier.

Edited by Stelpher

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32 minutes ago, Stelpher said:

Apart from the KPz-70, this is this first vehicle in the German tech-tree since WW2 that has any armor, and even then it can be penetrated fairly reliably (probably about 70% of the tank from the front) by pretty much every tank cannon since BR 6.7.

 

Gaijin is unfortunately not very good at modelling spaced armor ; the Leopard 2K high-hardness spaced armor was designed to defeat 105 mm APDS, 100 mm APHE and 90 mm APHE at quite close range. This modelling problem of in-game armor protection compared to the IRL protection level also occurs on the MBT-70 (designed to defeat 105 mm APDS at 800 m) and the AMX-32 (designed to defeat 75 mm PCOT and 57 mm APCR) and the Radkampfwagen 90 (its Leopard 1A3 turret was designed to defeat 100 mm AP at 1000 m and 57 mm APCR at 500 m).

Edited by FORMATOSE
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Just now, *CodyBlues said:

They have their advantages and disadvantages but why does that mean the 2K shouldn’t get a slightly better round? Or at the very least get it’s thermals back.

 

also, how is the Leo’s gun better then the T-72B?

 

Leo 2k has better gun handling not ammo: higher gun depression and turret rotation speed. 

 

Honestly, giving it back its thermals would be fine IMO if Gaijin is convinced by whatever sources are thrown in a bug report. My initial reply was spawned more by my disagreement with the idea that the leo 2k was suffering in some way. I'd look back to see what sources they used to remove the thermals in the first place though.

 

I don't think it needs better ammo because that ammo would have to be dm23 or equivalent. This would let it pen the T-64B's UFP (and I think the chally 1's cheeks); thus removing the tradeoff of a tank at its same br. In 10.7 matches though, dm23 isn't going to help it much compared to dm13; the weakspots barely change.

Basically, giving the leo 2k better ammo doesn't improve its performance at 10.7 but does adversly affect the balance of 9.7 MBT's.

Edited by Ariesv
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41 minutes ago, Ariesv said:

 

Leo 2k has better gun handling not ammo: higher gun depression and turret rotation speed. 

 

Honestly, giving it back its thermals would be fine IMO if Gaijin is convinced by whatever sources are thrown in a bug report. My initial reply was spawned more by my disagreement with the idea that the leo 2k was suffering in some way. I'd look back to see what sources they used to remove the thermals in the first place though.

 

I don't think it needs better ammo because that ammo would have to be dm23 or equivalent. This would let it pen the T-64B's UFP (and I think the chally 1's cheeks); thus removing the tradeoff of a tank at its same br. In 10.7 matches though, dm23 isn't going to help it much compared to dm13; the weakspots barely change.

Basically, giving the leo 2k better ammo doesn't improve its performance at 10.7 but does adversly affect the balance of 9.7 MBT's.

I think the trade off is that it has no armour and thermals for speed and a good gun. But if doesn’t have ammo that allow it to punch up then it’s not really doing it’s job. 9.7 isn’t a real BR as it’s sucked up to 10.3 and 10.7 non stop.

 

also, if it got thermals and DM23 I’d be ok with it being move in BR.

Edited by *CodyBlues
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Just now, *CodyBlues said:

I think the trade off is that it has no armour and thermals for speed and a good gun. But if doesn’t have ammo that allow it to punch up then it’s not really doing it’s job. 9.7 isn’t a real BR as it’s sucked up to 10.3 and 10.7 non stop.

Warthunder doesn't balance tanks based on what BR's they play at most, it balances them based on what BR they are at in the tech tree.

Buffing a tank because it has a hard time in a full uptier is a bad precedent to set. 

 

Just now, *CodyBlues said:

also, if it got thermals and DM23 I’d be ok with it being move in BR.

Like I said, dm 23 is barely going to help you at all against 10.7's. All it does is let you club lower or same tier tanks. The 2k's ammo is within the range of 9.7-10.0 right now, it is fine as is. I'd prefer ro reduce powercreep and have some semblance of a progression instead of making all the top tier stuff as similar as possible. Turning the 2k into another 2a4 is a bad idea IMO.

 

I'd rather they add a full C-tech leo 2a4 (at 10.3 or 10.7) if the German tree is to get another top tier backup.

Edited by Ariesv
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9.7 and onwards (10.0, 10.3) are special BRs. There's always an abundance of top tier players which suck everyone -1 into their matches. Unlike other BR ranges 10.7 will just recruit the players from -1. There is no +1 which might offer some players to recruit...

 

Thats why I won't care if they up the 2k to 10.7 or whatever br, cause there is no practical difference between 9.7 and 10.7. So Leo 2k should get everything which is needed to fight top tier.

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give it thermals and I'll be happy. I am perfectly fine using HEAT/20mm.

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29 minutes ago, Ariesv said:

Warthunder doesn't balance tanks based on what BR's they play at most, it balances them based on what BR they are at in the tech tree.

Buffing a tank because it has a hard time in a full uptier is a bad precedent to set. 

 

Like I said, dm 23 is barely going to help you at all against 10.7's. All it does is let you club lower or same tier tanks. The 2k's ammo is within the range of 9.7-10.0 right now, it is fine as is. I'd prefer ro reduce powercreep and have some semblance of a progression instead of making all the top tier stuff as similar as possible. Turning the 2k into another 2a4 is a bad idea IMO.

 

I'd rather they add a full C-tech leo 2a4 (at 10.3 or 10.7) if the German tree is to get another top tier backup.

It’s something they already have done and then undone when they lowered the BR. It happened on the IS-2.

 

also, DM23 isn’t going to make a difference in a down tier as the DM13 pens most everything in a downtier. It will, however even the playing field when you do run into 10.0+ vehicle.

 

The 2K just doesn’t cut it at the top. 

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Just now, *CodyBlues said:

DM23 isn’t going to make a difference in a down tier as the DM13 pens most everything in a downtier. It will, however even the playing field when you do run into 10.0+ vehicle.

Show me a 10.0+ vehicle that you will face that you can't pen with dm13 but can with dm23. The most meaningful changes dm23 gives is nullifying the advantage of the T-64B and turning the 2k into a 2a4 clone; both things I'd like to avoid.  

 

Just now, Thodin said:

9.7 and onwards (10.0, 10.3) are special BRs. There's always an abundance of top tier players which suck everyone -1 into their matches. Unlike other BR ranges 10.7 will just recruit the players from -1. There is no +1 which might offer some players to recruit...

 

Thats why I won't care if they up the 2k to 10.7 or whatever br, cause there is no practical difference between 9.7 and 10.7. So Leo 2k should get everything which is needed to fight top tier.

This is the case throughout the game, feeder BR's are a well known phenomenon. Try playing a 6.7/7.0 lineup and see how many same-br/downtiers you get.

Buffing vehicles because they aren't as good as vehicles a full br above them is a bad idea. If it were, the T-64B and T-72B would either have thermals and better turret traverse (maybe even a better engine to boot) or would both be moved to 9.3; both terrible options that mess with everything that Warthunder has tried to do with regards to vehicle balance.

Edited by Ariesv
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18 minutes ago, *CodyBlues said:

It’s something they already have done and then undone when they lowered the BR. It happened on the IS-2.

 

also, DM23 isn’t going to make a difference in a down tier as the DM13 pens most everything in a downtier. It will, however even the playing field when you do run into 10.0+ vehicle.

 

The 2K just doesn’t cut it at the top. 

 

38 minutes ago, Thodin said:

9.7 and onwards (10.0, 10.3) are special BRs. There's always an abundance of top tier players which suck everyone -1 into their matches. Unlike other BR ranges 10.7 will just recruit the players from -1. There is no +1 which might offer some players to recruit...

 

Thats why I won't care if they up the 2k to 10.7 or whatever br, cause there is no practical difference between 9.7 and 10.7. So Leo 2k should get everything which is needed to fight top tier.

 

The M1 and M1 IP with the M774 which is at best on par with the DM13 are 10.0.

We also have both Russian 9.7s without thermal.

 

So, why would Germany with the 2K get special treatment?

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3 minutes ago, SlayerMkX said:

 

 

The M1 and M1 IP with the M774 which is at best on par with the DM13 are 10.0.

We also have both Russian 9.7s without thermal.

 

So, why would Germany with the 2K get special treatment?

Don't worry, Germany always gets special treatment by Gaijn. Armor effectiveness of all of Germany's top tier tanks vary widely and the armor itself is practically broken for any round above the CL, which is bs if you consider that the armor is supposed to be the same composition. People want the 2k to have thermals because it had thermals as a prototype. Much like the 2a4 would also have DM33 by the later manufacturing stages. It is really relative and no that would not be special treatment. You can keep the tank at 9.7, but it is not like I would ever play night battles with it even with night vision. The problem is that top tier is generally ****** up.

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31 minutes ago, *CodyBlues said:

also, if it got thermals and DM23 I’d be ok with it being move in BR.

I just wanted to clarify my position.

 

I probably would be fine with both changes if it was moved to 10.0. I'd prefer it wasn't though because I like trees to have progression and variety; but the changes you seek would make it a fine 10.0.

As it stands now though I think the 2k is fine at 9.7 as it is currently modeled because it fits in with the other 9.7's.

Edited by Ariesv
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I still believe they should have moved top tier to 11.0, then there wouldn't even need to be a discussion about this. 'The Leopard 2K simply shouldn't fight top-tier in its current state' is my belief. Then they could have fleshed out BR 9.7 across the board and possibly created enough of a playerbase there to drag the 10-range into down-tiers once in a while.

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15 hours ago, *CodyBlues said:

They have their advantages and disadvantages but why does that mean the 2K shouldn’t get a slightly better round?

 

Because the Leopard 2K already offers such advantages in other categories.

It's perfectly fine as it is.

 

15 hours ago, *CodyBlues said:

Or at the very least get it’s thermals back.

 

Never had em, so there's no ''getting them back''.

 

12 hours ago, SlayerMkX said:

We also have both Russian 9.7s without thermal.

 

And without mobility.

 

5 hours ago, ANDROMADA said:

Sure when the M1/IP get better rounds too.

 

Nah, the Leo 2K shouldn't even get better ammo then.

 

M833 for M1IP, Leopard 2K stays with DM13, it's at a lower BR for a reason, right?

 

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2 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

 

Because the Leopard 2K already offers such advantages in other categories.

It's perfectly fine as it is.

 

 

Never had em, so there's no ''getting them back''.

 

 

And without mobility.

 

 

Nah, the Leo 2K shouldn't even get better ammo then.

 

M833 for M1IP, Leopard 2K stays with DM13, it's at a lower BR for a reason, right?

 

 

The 2k did have a thermal imager.

 

 

The NZG 200 was developed by Zeiss and Eltro. "Nachtsichtzielgerät" - night vision targeting device. In terms of overall specs, it is largely similar to the PZNG - a 70 kg heavy, fully stabilized periscope with 360° travese and -10° to +20° elevation that sits on an elevatable mast which can be retracted into the turret. The main difference between both systems is the image intensifier - another type of video camera tube was used - and the integration of the still early thermal imaging technology. Instead of a small thermal sensor with a low framerate being used, the NZG 200 included a proper thermal imager. A mirror in the "dead" zone of the LLLTV's mirror lens directed the incoming light to it. As the resolution was still rather limited, the thermal imager also was to be only used for target detection - identification of the target aswell as aiming was to be done using the image intensifier instead.

The NZG 200 didn't allow overlying the thermal imager's output onto the LLLTV image, instead the operator had to switch between switch between both modes. Alternatively one operator (gunner or commander) could view the thermal channel, while the other could view the LLLTV channel. The NZG 200 was designed in such a way, that the thermal imaging module could be easily replaced with newer ones in the future.

 

 

The PZNG was fitted to the Leopard 2 prototype turrets T12 and T17, while the NZG 200 was fitted to the turrets T11 and T16.

https://esut.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/T11-mit-20-mm-MK-und-Nachtsehger-Ein-Prototyp-der-ersten-Generation-e1569408092813.jpg

Leopard 2 prototype with turret T11 (the only one with 20 mm autocannon). The NZG 200 is visible at the center-left side of the photo. Next to it is the pulse spotlight, which could be used with the LLLTV system in the ominous "gated viewing mode".

 

In terms of how this would be modeled in WT they could simply treat it as a commander only thermals with a limited resolution because it was to be used for target spotting/identification primarily.

 

Edited by sugarstudd
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