How #&^%$* are you against an Iowa/NC/SoDak class battleship with radar/computer guided guns.

[Madwolf 10,218]

I'm not sure if the Iowa lost her radar against the Kotari, but even if she did it didn't seen to matter. How about you provide some evidence, because as much as you keep claiming this happened according to a report, you've never linked any evidence to support that, and it has been said multiple times that there was a man manning the circuit breakers if any of them popped during firing to push them back on. How that translates to them being out of commission for any significant length of time is beyond me.

The Bismark situation was entirely different.

The Yamato also at one point blew out her own FCS. Things like that happened when ships first saw combat or engaged in testing drills, and it was generally corrected.

[Madwolf 10,218]

I think we've argued this back and forth way too many times. If we're going to discuss something from now on lets stick to one subject. The Kotari can be a thing, then the Naka or Nowaki can be a thing. Jumping from all these battles, ship systems, ships, etc. is making this hard to follow and for other people to have input when we draw it out into 30 paragraphs a post.

[General_Sultan 1,228]

and you've demonstrated that you never read CPs or AARs. (once again lol)

 

skedaddle back to Videogames.... it surprises me how years of studying and still we have to get our asses up to argue with kids with little info on naval warfare or history who can't get a point across through other means then speculation.

 

we've overreapeted points for you, katori's blip on Iowa's radar was a bismarck size target. and the splashes on the Nowaki were actually 300m (that was the best shot they got on her).

 

you've ignored most what we said, and raised your own different points.

 

as for AA abilities, http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/antiaircraft_action_summary_wwii.htm

 

this is a detailed USN archive on the effectiveness of AA guns throughout the war. This website also lists AA guns, their statistics, their combat records, their effeciency and effectiveness throughout WW2. that the VT fused 5" scored 340 rounds per plane, conventional 5" 654 rpp and the 40mm bofors 1713 rpp, it also includes a post-war US intel report saying that the IJN 5" required an average of 150 rpp and 1500 for the 25mm

 

 

as for the 18.1" Sanshiki shells, they were deadly although they were'n effective in ten-go. the explosion and amount of heat they generated were extreme, the fragments and shrapnel were solely to mess up the engine of a plane.

 

despite every CP showing they were'n effective in ten-go (despite being not much used there) they were probably used in Samar/leyte gulf and potentially shot down alot of Aircraft.

[Davix32 533]

I wonder what tier both ships will have?

 

IF they keep using the "Introduction date tiering system" then the Yamato would be something like tier 12 and the Iowa would be something like tier 14-15.

[Crag_r 8,620]

IF they keep using the "Introduction date tiering system" then the Yamato would be something like tier 12 and the Iowa would be something like tier 14-15.

 

If Iowa is teir 15 then its going to be a scarce tree above it... 

[General_Sultan 1,228]

IF they keep using the "Introduction date tiering system" then the Yamato would be something like tier 12 and the Iowa would be something like tier 14-15.

Iowa will be on the top of the USN tree, so will the yamato

 

it does'n work to say a ship came earlier it should be tiered below, the yamato was refitted multiple times in the war, if yamato is going to be below Iowa due to date introduction then we're gonna need another yamato called "yamato 1944" to be on top of the tree

[Madwolf 10,218]

Okay let's focus this down again the Bismark sized blip on the radar.:

So having a larger blip than the ship is on the radar screen doesn't make the ship easier to hit, it makes it harder.

Now, not only are you firing at a target that is beyond reasonable engagement range, a range at which no other ship has achieved a hit at, but your accuracy has also taken a hit due to the target being too large in your FCS. This may be to operator error, or the ship being near the end of the Iowa's FCS radar range.

As for your sources, all of mine are readily avaialable on the internet. I'd love to see some After Action Reports or Combat Reports you keep talking about, but never link. Your only proof so far disproves your claim of a hit on the White Planes.

[RAMJB 3,948]

as for the 18.1" Sanshiki shells, they were deadly although they were'n effective in ten-go. the explosion and amount of heat they generated were extreme, the fragments and shrapnel were solely to mess up the engine of a plane.

 

despite every CP showing they were'n effective in ten-go (despite being not much used there) they were probably used in Samar/leyte gulf and potentially shot down alot of Aircraft.

 

 

The only think the Shansiki shells blasted at Leyte gulf was one of the barrels of Mushashi. The shell had a terrible performance, and US pilots are quoted on opinions like "they made nice fireworks, but that's about it". Doesn't seem like those shells shoot anything down ,does it?
 

The Musashi is known to have fired her guns in anger only once when she fired "sankaidan" (incendiary shrapnel) anti-aircraft shells during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea in October 1944.  One of these reportedly exploded in the barrel, disabling the gun.

.

.

.

The concept behind these shells was that the ship would put up a barrage pattern through which an attacking aircraft would have to fly.  However, these shells were considered by US Navy pilots to be more of a visual spectacular than an effective AA weapon.

 

 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_18-45_t94.htm

 

 

I'm not gong to even bother arguing with you about the rest (I wouldn't know where to begin with given that I think you've not made an entirely true statement in the whole thread) - except for one thing. The longest naval gunfire hit ever scored is a technical draw between HMS Warspite on Giulio Cesare in Punta Stilo, and Scharnhorst on HMS Glorious in Norway, 1940. Range was around 26000 yards in both cases:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-006.htm

 

There's no documental proof that GB was ever hit by a 18.1 inch shell - in fact it's accepted that GB was sunk by 8 inch gunfire coming from the japanese heavy cruisers, Yamato hitting it being a possibility - not a certainty.
 

The Yamato is known to have fired at enemy ships on only one occasion.  This was at the Battle off Samar in October 1944 against the U.S. Taffy 1 and Taffy 3 escort carrier groups, with rounds possibly hitting USS Gambier Bay (CVE-73).

 

www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-006.htm

 

 

The mere fact that the longest naval hit recorded in history still belongs to Scharnhorst -warspite being a close second or a tie. Those are documented hits - Gambier Bay being hit by 18.1'' shells is just an hypotesis.

 

One doesn't score records "probably" hitting something, I'm afraid. So no, a "maybe" is not good enough. Until proven otherwise with definite proof and documented data, I say Yamato scored no hits on that battle, and you can't refute it at all. (It could have happened - but then again more than probably did not, and again, a "Maybe" is not good enough).

 

 

/edit: no, I'll also adress this because is particularily funny and goes on to proof how unsound your grounds are:

 

the Katori is 426ft by 50ft or approximately half the size of Bismarck...now if 1 ship is at 15,000yrds and the bigger at 30,000yrds the radar signature/blip would be the same size

 

 

you do know that the area of a ship with roughly half lenght and width than other is a QUARTER of it, not half, don't you?.

 

Oh, hell, is plain to see - no ,you don't.

Do simple math. Take two rectangles. One is 4m long, 2 m wide, the other 2m long, 1m wide. Lenght and width dimensions are exactly the half in the 2nd vs the 1st.

Yet one rectangle is four times smaller than the second. Not half.

Rectangle 1 area: 8m^2

rectangle 2 area: 2m^2

 

Rectangle 1 area= rectangle 2 area x 4

 

Rectangle 1 is 4 times as big as rectangle 2 (not half).

 

 

Not only that, in naval gunnery area of the target is just part of the hit %, given that the actual HEIGHT over the waterline of the target is also exceptionally important (the higher over the water it is, the larger objective it is). And ,lets put it this way (irony warning) the Bismarck was slightly taller than a japanese light cruiser.

 

 

BTW the signal you receive from 30000 yards has nothing to do with being just as strong as a signal reflected by an object half the size (which was not half as we've seen) from half the distance.

 

For starters the Radar Cross Section of a ship half the size of another is not half , as Radar Cross Section vs Size is not a linear function at all.

 

There's another thing here and is earth curvature. A radar detecting another ship at a distance of 35km is not getting a return in all the enemy ship - only gets a bounce on the superstructure that's over the horizon, while at 17.5km it'll be bouncing with the whole ship. Hence the longer the ranger the much less the bounce.

 

But even MUCH more important, signal strenght is not linear vs distance either, return echo strenght reduces exponentially with distance with a degree of four (or to put it in other words radar strenght is a f(d^4) where d is distance): to double the range of a radar you need to increase the signal by a factor of 16 factoring the extra range is doubled - the wave has to go that extra lenght and come back. So the same ship that gives a signal of X strenght at a distance Y, is not going to give back a signal of X/2 at a distance of 2Y (not by far) but a MUCH exponentially weaker return.

 

BTW american search radars had emitting powers in the 200KW range and Fire Control Systems had powers in the 50KW range. The search radar present in the Yamato (they had no fire control radar at all) had a peak output of...5KW. Guess which one could reach farther, and to which scale and degree.

 

So what you said makes no sense whatsoever. As everything else you wrote.

[RAMJB 3,948]

Imagine how screwed you are when the Yamato gets close enough to fire all of its guns.

 

Begs the question - how is the Yamato going to achieve it?. I mean, 27 knot ships are not renowned for outrunning 33knot ships...

[RAMJB 3,948]

the Iowa has inferior surface search radars. the japanese type 98 series rangefinder fitted in the 33m long tower can track 40 knots-fast targets at a whooping 50km away and 35 knot evasive targets and took into account the earth values such as curvature,temp and such.

 

Sources of this invented radar Yamato never had, please?- the type 98 was not a radar, it was an analog fire control mechanical computer

 

And on top of that it didn't compare well with the american FCS system:

 

Conclusion

It should come as no surprise that the newer USN Rangekeeper, and for that matter the Mark 38 GFCS, has an edge in operability and flexibility. The US system has the ability to operate in a closed loop fashion allowing the plotting room team to quickly identify target motion changes and apply appropriate corrections.  The newer Japanese systems, particularly the Type 98 Hoiban and Shagekiban on the YAMATO class were more up to date, this system eliminated the Sokutekiban, and however, it was based on the same philosophy and still relied on 7 operators.

 This is not to say that the Japanese systems were inaccurate, certainly the IJN demonstrated their gunnery proficiency during the Guadalcanal campaign, just perhaps not quite as flexible. They did, however, have more points for the introduction of inadvertent errors.  Relying solely on optical range finders, lack of gyro for an artificial horizon, and manual follow-ups on the Sokutekiban, Shagekiban, Hoiban as well as guns themselves.  Those types of errors tended to manifest themselves as battle wore on and crews became fatigued.  This was a problem for both USS MASSACHUSETTS²¹ and HMS DUKE OF YORK at Casablanca and North Cape, respectively. This could have played a role in Center Force’s battleships dismal performance off Samar in October 1944.

 

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-086.htm

 

 

So where's your magican radar/FCs able to "track 40 knot fast targets a whooping 50km away"?. Track what?  Detected by what?. By a fire control analog computer?. I didn't know those could detect anything...and track how, given that the american system is obviously better?

 

Who is your favorite Science Fiction writer, man?.

 

The Yamato couldn't spot Iowa before Iowa detected Yamato first. USS Iowa had  SK/SRa search radars, peak power output of 200KW operating in a wavelenght of 1.5m - this radar could detect battleship sized objects at ranges of 30 miles/ 50km.

The Yamato had two search radars:
 

-It had a Type 21 Mod 3 radar, peak output of 5Kw, 1.5m wavelenght. It could detect enemy battleship sized objects at 20km of distance.

 

-and since 1944 a Type 22 radar, peak output being 2KW, 10cm wavelenght. It could detect enemy battleship sized objects at 35km of distance (incidentally here you can see that a radar with an emitter 100 times as powerful as the type 22 didn't have 100 times it's range - just as a pointer of how wrong and clueless you were basing your wild incorrect assessment of radar returns I mentioned previously).

 

 

Neither of them was able to conduct blind fire, and both of them lacked the power and resolution to even assist the optical rangefinders at extreme long range gunfire as they couldn't differenciate splashes from the actual target (the american radar could do this since the Mark 3 radar/FCS combo introduction in Late 1941, the later Mark 8 radar/FCS being much more capable and allowing for blindfire at ranges up to 30km, and the endwar Mark13 allowing it to ranges up to 38km).

 

Seriously a 2nd read of this thread is just hysterical. You have not pointed a single fact that's not, at best, hypotetical and never proven - and most of it is just plain false O.o. Just incredible.

[Crag_r 8,620]

Iowa will be on the top of the USN tree, so will the yamato

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that they will be equally on top of their trees. Those other ships that happened to have a rather flat upper surface that also happened to launch flying contraptions off their decks may also share high places in the tree's...

[MASTAVASE 1,515]

This thread makes me question the kinda of mechanics we'll see in the game for naval.

[Madwolf 10,218]

I know right? If they model the FCS of the Americans and Brits accurately they should have a decent advantage in ship to ship battles, crews being equal and ships being similar.

 

The Japanese won't be too hard hit because they had their amazing long lance torpedoes, and obviously a well developed carrier fleet. The Germans on the other hand will be fighting in the hole a little bit with no developed carrier force, and it's main strength being a submarine force that won't make it into the initial naval release.

 

They could simply aid the Germans via a land based air force since most of their engagements will be fought near land anyways.

 

With the way they're starting tanks I'm beginning to wonder if the Germans will even have their own tree at first. They might just include the US, Japanese, and British navies to begin with, and make the Germans part of the Japanese tree until a later date.

[_TomokoAnabuki 8,995]

I know right? If they model the FCS of the Americans and Brits accurately they should have a decent advantage in ship to ship battles, crews being equal and ships being similar.

 

The Japanese won't be too hard hit because they had their amazing long lance torpedoes, and obviously a well developed carrier fleet. The Germans on the other hand will be fighting in the hole a little bit with no developed carrier force, and it's main strength being a submarine force that won't make it into the initial naval release.

 

They could simply aid the Germans via a land based air force since most of their engagements will be fought near land anyways.

 

With the way they're starting tanks I'm beginning to wonder if the Germans will even have their own tree at first. They might just include the US, Japanese, and British navies to begin with, and make the Germans part of the Japanese tree until a later date.

 

perhaps it would be better to combine the German navy with the Italians, (as they did have a large surface fleet) rather then the Japanese.

[Katsukai 6,157]

perhaps it would be better to combine the German navy with the Italians, (as they did have a large surface fleet) rather then the Japanese.

 

German has already combined Italian planes so why not?

[Robeye1999 13]

I love hearing general sultan talk about Japanese superiority. The next thing he is going to say is that the Yamato was never sunk and is in hiding somewhere in the Japanese homeland... :kamikadze:

[General_Sultan 1,228]

I love hearing general sultan talk about Japanese superiority. The next thing he is going to say is that the Yamato was never sunk and is in hiding somewhere in the Japanese homeland...  :kamikadze:

 

 

 

And I love USN fanboys raving off about american superiority and japanese inferiority, it won't be far until they start going off about how Yamato's deck armor layout is made of Rice and the guns fired bamboo sticks and riceballs at the enemy.

[Robeye1999 13]

Sultan...I would hate to tell you, but the US was superior. They did win the war against the Japanese.

[Crag_r 8,620]

They totally cheated

[General_Sultan 1,228]

Sultan...I would hate to tell you, but the US was superior. They did win the war against the Japanese.

 

I'm sorry to inform you that economical, political and strategic affairs don't interfer on which ship has better statistics. it does'n take a genius to realize that these things separate. the germans had the best tanks in WW2 and lost. honestly, its not a complex thinking process.

[Crag_r 8,620]

I'm sorry to inform you that economical, political and strategic affairs don't interfer on which ship has better statistics. it does'n take a genius to realize that these things separate. the germans had the best tanks in WW2 and lost. honestly, its not a complex thinking process.

 

The only issue with Japan is that they did not always have the best ships. I mean compare Aircraft carriers of the US and Japanese, and for almost the all the classes of the war the US has the advantage...

[General_Sultan 1,228]

The only issue with Japan is that they did not always have the best ships. I mean compare Aircraft carriers of the US and Japanese, and for almost the all the classes of the war the US has the advantage...

 

 

only in the later models, after pearl harbor both sides were pretty even (however japan had a far larger carrier force). the top japanese carriers were Akagi & Kaga, they were pretty comparable to USN carriers from that point

 

 

late war the americans had the best ones but the japanese did have the IJN shinano

[Crag_r 8,620]

Hardly; The Shinano carried just over half the Aircraft, went 5 knots slower, had less range, and took not even close to the amount of punishment then the pre war Yorktown class.

 

That's not even comparing it to the equal time Essex class...

[General_Sultan 1,228]

Hardly; The Shinano carried just over half the Aircraft, went 5 knots slower

 

fair enough

 

 

 

and took not even close to the amount of punishment then the pre war Yorktown class

 

 

you are overlooking how the USS franklin got nearly sunk by two 250kg bombs.

[Steel_Talon 1,101]

 

The Japanese won't be too hard hit because they had their amazing long lance torpedoes, and obviously a well developed carrier fleet. The Germans on the other hand will be fighting in the hole a little bit with no developed carrier force, and it's main strength being a submarine force that won't make it into the initial naval release.

 

They could simply aid the Germans via a land based air force since most of their engagements will be fought near land anyways.

 

With the way they're starting tanks I'm beginning to wonder if the Germans will even have their own tree at first. They might just include the US, Japanese, and British navies to begin with, and make the Germans part of the Japanese tree until a later date.

& Russians will get Klingon ships for "ballance" purpose  :lol: