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How #&^%$* are you against an Iowa/NC/SoDak class battleship with radar/computer guided guns.


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Yamatos honor will protect her.

 

It will be cool to see a Yamato vs Iowa duel, no doubt the Iowa will land the first hits, the challenge is if the Yamato can survive enough salvos to get close for an effective salvo of her own with those huge 18 inch guns against a faster and more accurate enemy.

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It will be cool to see a Yamato vs Iowa duel, no doubt the Iowa will land the first hits, the challenge is if the Yamato can survive enough salvos to get close enough for an effective salvo of her own with those huge guns against a faster more accurate enemy.

 

The thing was in RL the Americans would have had a numerical advantage too - they could pool multiple Iowas as well as the very good North Carolina and South Dakota class fast BB's into a fast BB task force.  In addition, this force would have been under Adm Willis "Ching" Lee, who was not only a talented and aggressive admiral, but an expert on gunnery and especially radar as well. 

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Where did they say they were against radar with their fire control. That makes about the top half of most of the trees without the radar they had IRL...

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It will be cool to see a Yamato vs Iowa duel, no doubt the Iowa will land the first hits, the challenge is if the Yamato can survive enough salvos to get close for an effective salvo of her own with those huge 18 inch guns against a faster and more accurate enemy.

 

the Iowa has inferior surface search radars. the japanese type 98 series rangefinder fitted in the 33m long tower can track 40 knots-fast targets at a whooping 50km away and 35 knot evasive targets and took into account the earth values such as curvature,temp and such. 

 

 

as for landing the first hits. Yamato's maximum firing range was 26 miles and its FC radars were resilient. FC type 98's were fitted in the tower and main turrets. since the Iowa only has tower FC radars even one of her own salvos will kill her radars. meaning that after her first salvo her fighting capabilities would drop to extremely inferior while yamato would maintain its full combat capabilitiy even after taking up to 7 main calibre hits. the USS south dakota's FCs were entirely crippld and disabled after she took only two hits from the much older IJN Kirisihma. one hit did'n even penetrate, the other was an HE charge. so I question the statement "Iowa will land the first hits"

 

 

back to combat range, Iowa's max. fire range was 24 miles, yamato's was 26 miles. and supplementing this is the fact that Iowa's radars and FCs are again - Sensitive. if she takes a hit her combat abilities would be crippled. even her own salvos will do that.

 

 

Yamato can survive enough salvos to get close for an effective salvo of her own with those huge 18 inch guns against a faster and more accurate enemy.

 

its the opposite. Yamato has a 2-mile Immunity zone. Iowa has to survive that. and furthermore as demonstrated Bismarck test Iowa's only decent gunnary skills begin at 15 miles. while the Yamato was able to hit an enemy vessel with her first salvo ever fired at an enemy ship, this hit was the longest range hit against an enemy vessel in history, she hit the USS white plains bay at samar, within the first 4mins of the battle she lands a deadly straddle which temporarily knocks out the equipment and crippled the keels on the White plains 31.5km away or 19.6miles.

 

 

and since I brought up samar, its worth mentioning that in the battle, admiral kurita noted in a post war interview that at 30-35km he saw the puny starboard island of the USN carriers and even saw aircraft taking off the flight deck at poor weather (rain squalls and clouds) and yet the optics managed to achieve this at 30-35KM.

 

 

its stupid how people think battleships are some sort of mortal kombat shit where the 120Ibs bruce lee must take on the 500ibs King kong and must use agility to bring him down.

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its the opposite. Yamato has a 2-mile Immunity zone. Iowa has to survive that. and furthermore as demonstrated Bismarck test Iowa's only decent gunnary skills begin at 15 miles. while the Yamato was able to hit an enemy vessel with her first salvo ever fired at an enemy ship, this hit was the longest range hit against an enemy vessel in history, she hit the USS white plains bay at samar, within the first 4mins of the battle she lands a deadly straddle which temporarily knocks out the equipment and crippled the keels on the White plains 31.5km away or 19.6miles.

 

Sorry to say, but can you provide a source on that?

 

Because the Sharnhourst holds the record at 26,450 yards, followed by HMS Warspite on the Gulio Cesara at 26,000 yards. Nor can i find any info on the Yamato landing hits on anything but the USS Gambier bay, and at no where near the ranges you are talking about.

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Because the Sharnhourst holds the record at 26,450 yards, followed by HMS Warspite on the Gulio Cesara at 26,000 yards. Nor can i find any info on the Yamato landing hits on anything but the USS Gambier bay, and at no where near the ranges you are talking about.

 

 

in common history the longest range hits were landed by scharnhorst and warpsite but the 1st and 2nd longest range hits were both in samar sea, the first hit, landed by yamato at the first 4 mins of the battle on the USS whiteplains crippled the CVE. 

 

multiple sources - including Yamato's TROM and AAR from samar support me.

 

 

 

http://www.combinedfleet.com/yamato.htm

 

 

 

an excerpt from the White plain's CR/AAR:

 

0659 -- The enemy force observed bearing 289 degrees, distance 31,300 yards. Slashes were observed approximately 4,000 yards astern, and followed immediately by a salvo of heavy caliber shells falling approximately 300 yards on the starboard bow. (Yamato opened fire to honor tradition as flagship. The 6.1" guns fired with the forward main batteries. They knew they were out of range. Firing the secondary was simply out of tradition. They do not re-appear on the film until 0706 again.)

 

 

"Observers on deck reported that while under enemy shell fire, and shortly after the first salvo, three or four shell bursts nearby and about 400 feet in the air showering sparkling silver colored particles in a downward cone. These particles settled quickly in the water and there was little percussion with the burst. It is possible these were radar marking shells for spotting but their exact nature is not known." (It is documented that Yamato opened fire with Type 3 shells)"

 

 

0700 -- Straddled by a salvo estimated to be three 14-inch or greater caliber shells.



0700 - All power failed in communications as a result of near miss by battleship salvo, silencing all receivers and rendering transmitters useless. Same salvo buckled leg of radio table canting two receivers. The TBY radio was set up on the bridge replacing the TBS.
 

White_Plains_2_mini.jpg


0702 -- Another straddle, several splashes were observed. Commence launching aircraft. (This was Nagato's first Salvo, unfortunately have no photo of it at this time)

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Never heard that any ship scored a hit beyond 30000 yards the only CONFIRMED ones are Scharnhorst vs Glorious at ~26400 yards and Warspite vs Guilio Cesare also at ~26000 yards.

Given that range finders at that time were not really precise to the exact number and given the deviation of shells it is considered that both share the glory of having scored the longest ship vs ship gunfire hit in history, 

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-006.htm

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records-4000/longest-range-hit-by-a-ships-gun/

 

 

Since no one else shares the story of the 31k yards first salvo hit of the Yamato I would consider it as fiction.

 

As for the radar myth other sources make different claims: 

http://battleshipyamato.info/characteristics.html

Even Combined fleet claims that :

"Then there's the fact that all radar fire-control is not created equal. Radar operating at meter or decimeter wavelengths is useful for ranging, but lacks the angular accuracy necessary for training. In practical terms, this means that a decimetric set can develop a range solution via radar, but must rely on an optical director to supply training information for the battery. This hybrid fire-control solution is, of course, limited by the quality of the optics available, and also by the visual horizon (which is closer than the radar horizon), and weather conditions. Only with the advent of 10cm and (later) 3cm wavelength sets was true 'blindfire' radar fire-control achievable, wherein the firing ship need never come into visual range of the opposing vessel. The Germans, Japanese, and Italians never developed sets of this capability (both the Japanese (despite its 10cm wavelength) and German sets were usable for fire control against a battleship-sized target only out to a range of about 27,000 yards.) The bottom line is, then, that the Allied vessels, and particularly Iowa and South Dakota, would enjoy an enormous advantage in gunfire control over their adversaries. She would have the ability to lob shells over the visual horizon, and would also perform better in complete darkness or adverse weather conditions." 

http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_fire.htm

 

"Bottom line: The Japanese and the Germans had better optical RF's than any other nation. In a fight where only optical systems are used, they had a clear advantage as shown at Denmark Strait, the River Platte and First Savo (I assume that you've seen my previous posts regarding the POW's radar and won't revisit the subject). However, the US had the best FC as a system (FCS). What this meant is that, when 10cm fire-control radar became available, the US was able to easily integrate it into their FCS, thus creating the best overall FCS as compared to the FCS used by any other nation. My (strictly amateur) conclusion is that the US FCS with radar was the most advanced of any nation in the 1942-1945 timeframe."

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-052.htm

 

As far as firepower is concerned; 

Given similar penetration values of the US AP mark 8 16" http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

and Japanese 18,1"  http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_18-45_t94.htm

The fire power advantage would not be as big in favor of the Yamato as people might think and might have been completely negated by the Iowas higher rate of fire.

Furthermore the lower quality of steel used by the Japanese would also most likely have moved the protection advantage towards the Iowa.

 

Best bet would have been for the Yamato to close in to at least 26k yards to take full advantage of her superior optics while the Iowa would have hold a clear advantage at maximum range. 

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Well. the first half of your post can be dismissed considering my supporting evidences already puts the longest range hit in history (confirmed too, just not widely accepted or famous) is by yamato.

 

 

a less known event in the same engagement was the 2nd longest range hit in a naval battle, it was scored by the IJN kongo on the USS heerman at 17 miles.

 

 

the rest of your post - I'll let my better informed friend Bobbyspongka handle it. and since you're using navweaps as backup source. prepare to get schooled.

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CRAG-R,ill help,it is true.
Yamato did get hits greater.its just the Samar case is was not researched properly,there are only a few people I know who have looked into both sides and actually Show Yamato was by far one of the most active vessels at Samar.
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What I say is not my words but from Robert Lungdren,one of the people I know who is now revising the Samar case

Yamato fired 100 Type 1 AP rounds and 24 Type 3 rounds on October 25th, from her main battery. For the sake of the conversation forget the Type 3 as most of these were fired after the surface battle when she still came under air attack.

I believe based on what the primary documentation says for both sides I can confirm 4 x 18" hits. The one on White Plains at 31.5 km. The three on Johnston at 0727 at 18.5 km.

From the white plains action report




0659 – The enemy force observed bearing 289 degrees, distance 31,300 yards. Slashes were observed approximately 4,000 yards astern, and followed immediately by a salvo of heavy caliber shells falling approximately 300 yards on the starboard bow. (Yamato opened fire to honor tradition as flagship. The 6.1" guns fired with the forward main batteries. They knew they were out of range. Firing the secondary was simply out of tradition. They do not re-appear on the film until 0706 again.)


“Observers on deck reported that while under enemy shell fire, and shortly after the first salvo, three or four shell bursts nearby and about 400 feet in the air showering sparkling silver colored particles in a downward cone. These particles settled quickly in the water and there was little percussion with the burst. It is possible these were radar marking shells for spotting but their exact nature is not known.” (It is documented that Yamato opened fire with Type 3 shells)

0700 – Straddled by a salvo estimated to be three 14-inch or greater caliber shells.


0700 - All power failed in communications as a result of near miss by battleship salvo, silencing all receivers and rendering transmitters useless. Same salvo buckled leg of radio table canting two receivers. The TBY radio was set up on the bridge replacing the TBS.


0702 – Another straddle, several splashes were observed. Commence launching aircraft. (Nagato's first Salvo unfortunately have no photo of at this time)

0704: Straddled again. This salvo measured the carrier as calipers, diagonally from port quarter to starboard bow, four shells dropping microscopically close forward and aft. One of the latter two exploded below the surface under the port side of the stern. Splash water from forward whipped across the bridge. The vessel was shaken and twisted violently throwing personnel in some parts of the ship from their feet and much gear to the deck from normal horizontal stowage. Steering control was lost, gyro and radar failed, damage received in starboard engine room and all lights were extinguished throughout the ship. All electrical power was lost for several minutes until it was discovered the generator circuit breakers had been opened by the shock. The Engineer officer was ordered to make smoke and the stacks were promptly set so as to emit smoke from one stack to port and one to starboard.” No color was observed in the major caliber salvo that landed close aboard this ship.” (Yamato is no color)
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Never heard that any ship scored a hit beyond 30000 yards the only CONFIRMED ones are Scharnhorst vs Glorious at ~26400 yards and Warspite vs Guilio Cesare also at ~26000 yards.

NEVER???
Read this then
warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/17714/Battle-Leyte-Gulf-Center-force-intercepted-Oldendorf?page=5#.UeehwcsayK0
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Seriously 30k meters?

 

There is NOTHING to confirm it, and further HMS Warspite is the only well documented hit. I would better say that it is ONE of the longest hit rather than go claiming something else.

 

And FCS.......you cant compare IJN Yamato system to USS Iowa, she had a extremely good FCS late war, far far better than anything Axis powers ever made.

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If you don't believe the Yamato hit and dismiss it at 19.6/31.5km.still the other 2 cases have been beaten of by the IJN Kongo.at 8:50am almost an hour after her main rangefinder is repaired from damage,she gets a DIRECT HIT on the USS Heerman at a range of 17miles,that's an impressive feat,for the fact she hit a small fast vessel at such a range!
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And FCS.......you cant compare IJN Yamato system to USS Iowa, she had a extremely good FCS late war, far far better than anything Axis powers ever made.

OH if it really is excellent then tell me how Iowa having the help of powerful air strikes and cruisers.have to waste and put so much effort to sink the training cruiser Katori?,tell me that ha operation hailstone.the Katori is a small pseudo cruiser CRIPPLED by a torpedo hit,which is what basically a easy target for the Iowa.but guess what from 14000yards she fired 46main bun rounds and 125-5inchers all for 2 main gun hits and 6 secondaries,yet Yamato gets 4-5 hits 2x the range?

Accuracy during WW2

A Naval War College study performed during World War II estimated that an Iowa Class (BB-61) battleship firing with top spot against a target the size of the German battleship Bismarck would be expected to achieve the following hit percentages.
Range
Percentage hits against a broadside target
Percentage hits against an end-on target
Ratio
10,000 yards (9,144 m)
32.7
22.3
1.47:1
20,000 yards (18,288 m)
10.5
4.1
2.56:1
30,000 yards (27,432 m)
2.7
1.4
1.92:1

Well going by what the USN war college found,at no range can Iowa fire without Yamato being able to return fire.also they simply dismiss the thought an Iowa class can snipe any vessel past 15miles.for the fact she just wasting shells!
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Seriously 30k meters?

There is NOTHING to confirm it, and further HMS Warspite is the only well documented hit. I would better say that it is ONE of the longest hit rather than go claiming something else.

I already gave you an excerpt for the white plains,so what your the genius who was there and on the vessel,and who ever on board white plains who wrote the report is a liar,delusional?
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Best bet would have been for the Yamato to close in to at least 26k yards to take full advantage of her superior optics while the Iowa would have hold a clear advantage at maximum range

No not really,battle of Samar already contradict you 68years ago,when at 5:44am in the rising sun over a rain squall filled battlefield Yamato and her escorts saw taffy 3 23miles away exactly a minute before the SG radar which is the same also put in the Iowa and any other USN vessel picked up the IJN.

Kurita in a postwar interview on the battle even say that they saw them first by optics.he even say at around 30-35km he can see the CVEs tiny starboard island and even see them launch planes from the flight deck.even if we go by what you say,Yamato too had radar.in the Japanese wiki,back in July 1943 or sometime there.she had type 22 surface search radars equipped and picked up the battleship Ise at a range of 35/22miles!
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As far as firepower is concerned;
Given similar penetration values of the US AP mark 8 16" http://www.navweaps....S_16-50_mk7.htm
and Japanese 18,1" http://www.navweaps....P_18-45_t94.htm
The fire power advantage would not be as big in favor of the Yamato as people might think and might have been completely negated by the Iowas higher rate of fire.
Furthermore the lower quality of steel used by the Japanese would also most likely have moved the protection advantage towards the Iowa

Iowa have a higher ROF?
Nope both have the same 1.5-2rpm

Talking about steel the I will use a battle the USN won against you

The 2nd battle of Guadalcanal was a USN victory for ousting the Japanese bombardment fleet and sinking Kirishima.i have read allot of sites that keep saying the USn have better quality steel yet theirs was not even the best.in fact the craziest thing I saw was someone claiming that south dak and iowas belt armour scheme can repulse up to 18.6inch!.

But oh how that person was WRONG.the battle I mention shows it.an 8inch round from either Takao or Atago was fired and COMPLETELY PENETRATED the de-capping plate and the main 12.1-2inch belt and then another shell travelled in the same hit to go 6 walls past!

Better steel quality?
Can repulse massive caliber rounds yet a shell what 10x lighter than a 18.1inch round did that.then imagine what would happen if Yamato guns was substituted instead
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Now one might ask,why am I talking and using South Dakota?,simple if you guys lookup the armour scheme layout you will find that the are similar if not the same.in fact some USN experts say the iowas are just sped up and lengthened up south dakotas
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I'm sorry to disappoint you but USS White Plains or any other ship was sunk by IJN Yamato that battle.

 

I wouldnt go as far as saying it was utter crap, but yeah.......they shelled a lot and couldnt hit squat.

 

Early war and IJN nightfighting capabilities......now thats another story.

 

But you seem to very biased for you lovely Yamato ;-) 

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I never said White plains was sunk by Yamato can you not read?
I SAID HIT there is a difference between hit and sunk but obviously for you you think both is the same just cos you misunderstand what I just said.

If it is utter crap for you then fine believe what ever you want cause obviously anything that shows how Yamato performed you don't like and just disregard it like trash
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Iowa did the exact the exact same on operation hailstone like I said,and they even chase Nowaki and Iowa fire 40 rounds and New Jersey 18 rounds at Nowaki,She just reports 3-100m splashes 300m away doesn't even bother mention what happened to the rest
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But you seem to very biased for you lovely Yamato ;-)

Yes cause me posting up people's hard work in research into this topic and you completely disregarding it and thinking it is nothing but pure lies and fantasy is just not biased at all
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