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Use SL multipliers instead of repair-costs


No, just trying to be a bit more realistic, honest and logical. This is not the "worst game ever", nor does "repair cost make players leave in masses", etc. Many complaints can be boiled down to player attitude, lazyness, entitlement. Not a broken game. I believe we're all able to accomplish more with some effort and good choices, come with better suggestions with some better understanding and more self-critique before presenting ideas.

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On 12/06/2020 at 12:45, lizardmech said:

And with a win I would still be down 30k and would require perhaps an addition 10 kills to just break even. That's 13 kills, a win, premium time and a premium vehicle, to just break even.

So the example you cited was a little misleading.

 

The game is from 1.99.0.41, so early June 2020 economy. The Prinz Eugen added nothing much to your cost, it was only 3,800 SL total repair at the time. This was all about the Graf Spee and the Koln 220, which at the time were the most dangerous, highest SL-earning ships in the game, with repair costs of 13,800 and 33,380 each. So you had an incredibly high powered naval lineup there.

 

Since then, ships that can beat those ships have come along, and the SL repair costs for your lineup have reduced significantly. 20,090 (Koln), 5,670 (Spee), 1,900 (Eugen), so 27,750 total today if you lost that entire lineup in a losing match with the same level of accomplishment. You'd nearly break even.

 

These things are decided by algorithm, not people. The downside of this is new vehicles take time to adjust as the stats come in, and this is a known problem. The upside is, we know all vehicles are following basically the same balancing rule and people aren't going vehicle by vehicle and playing favorites or making bad guesses. The real trouble is, people don't get the rule. The ships and other vehicles you see with incredibly high repair costs are either new to the game, or in the current meta, extremely difficult to kill. Since their deaths/game ratio is thus significantly lower than 1, the cost of that death is being factored out over the multiple games in between where they earned money without dying and paying the full repair cost. People who want lower repair costs tend to think in terms of the earnings they could get from one game, whereas the Gaijin formula focuses on earnings per death.

 

Yes, on the battle where you take out the incredibly powerful lineup and get wiped, you'll pay a penalty. But all the games before that where no one could kill you, you made money. That's how you have to look at those high values (except in the case of newer vehicles or vehicles which have been suddenly meta'd out by other new vehicles, where the stats haven't had time to adjust): as a reflection of your likely SL earnings on that vehicle per death.

Edited by Bruce_R1
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17 hours ago, Dodo_Dud said:

Repair costs do not only balance SL-reward, they also intend to limit play options, limit the vehicles use and enforce a more conservative play. This function works quite well imho.

Yeah, repair costs also have the effect of reducing some crazy sacrifice plays (headon ramming), and team killing, not to mention just flying high/hiding, instead of going for kills/caps/wins. Not on an individual basis, yes, we all have lots of SL, one accidental team kill isn't going to break us, but taken in aggregate, attaching some form of tangible penalty to death is a necessary mechanic of this kind of game. All the other options that have been proposed (like, locking any crew that dies for 15 min or more no matter what) all seem worse. We can quibble on how it should be calculated but SL loss on a death helps with those problems too.

 

To be clear, a primary reason of the current economy is undoubtedly to push people off F2P and into paying for premium time and premium vehicles. Not saying otherwise. But some form of cost-to-death is necessary, too.

Edited by Bruce_R1
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Repair cost math must be changed or removed.

Repair cost is calculated by vehicle effectiveness, right? They are here "to balance" the game, the better K/D a vehicle has, the higher repair cost. But are the players the responsibles for those K/D and winrates.

Also high repair cost discourage average players using that vehicle, only experienced players will play them without hesitation. Experienced players have good K/D and high winrates.

HIgh repair cost => Less average players => K/D increased => Repair cost increased => Less average players => K/D increased => repair cost increased

This loop is killing game experience, since some players become One Death Leaver, They wont risk losing too much SL, no one is paying their repair cost, 

Many players do KS. They rush to terminate that b25 you've already set fire, desperate to get a kill.

Facts like these ones are destroying the community, without a healthy community every online game dies. To get them solved, it's needed to erase the mother of all problems: the insane repair cost issue.

Edited by Aizuk
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7 minutes ago, Aizuk said:

 

Also high repair cost discourage average players using that vehicle, only experienced players will play them without hesitation. Experienced players have good K/D and high winrates.

HIgh repair cost => Less average players => K/D increased => Repair cost increased => Less average players => K/D increased => repair cost increased

 

This has been identified as a possible negative feedback loop to a purely stats-based approach, yes. Better players have more SL on average, so they use more expensive and newer vehicles more, so the stats on those vehicles will tend to be above what the entire player base would generate, so their repair costs stay high or even increase compared to where they'd be if more "regular players" used them. It's certainly a risk to the approach we can assume Gaijin statistical analysts are aware of.

 

Ultimately, this would still balance out in the long term though, inevitably, if a purely stats based approach were maintained. The more valid complaint is this kind of effect very well could delay or subvert the economic effects and repair costs normalizing more quickly on newer vehicles (like Swedish high-tier ground vehicles) or rare vehicles that are difficult for more regular players to obtain (such as the E-100). There's no indication this is the case for the majority of game vehicles, however, particularly at mid-to-low BRs. I appreciate it's a real problem for people who want to play certain newer vehicle trees and BRs before their SL economics fully normalize (the example above of the Graf Spee and Koln in June 2020 is one example). I just would prefer Gaijin maintain a stats-based approach to somebody picking and choosing winners, which would be just as confusing and opaque, and remove whatever trust they've built up on this issue. If the margin on SL penalties overall is seen as too high, then it should be lowered consistently across the board.

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59 minutes ago, Aizuk said:

This loop is killing game experience, since some players become One Death Leaver, They wont risk losing too much SL, no one is paying their repair cost, 

Many players do KS. They rush to terminate that b25 you've already set fire, desperate to get a kill.

 

Players become one death leavers? Well, in that case, they already have to pay the cost. Is it so difficult to include a few less expensive vehicles in the lineup? Why don't they do that? So I guess it isn't the repair cost. If I mind the repair cost, I don't use the vehicle. Once I lose it, I have to pay the cost or use a backup. I don't quite follow your argument here.

 

And how do you connect KS to all this? "KS" happens no matter if vehicles are cheap or expensive.

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The main problem I see is that the RP and SL modifiers are great up until tier 3/4 after that they don’t scale as well. 
 

if you consistently try to keep up with the META there’s no chance that you can make money, I know this for a fact.

 

I tested a theory whilst the Battle pass / Operation WINTER event by, using vehicles around 7.0 and below and I was raking in the SL. (Easy making around a mill a day)

 

but this was effecting my RP gain 
 

Now I’ve gone with Top Tier, making sure that I’m being efficient with my lineups (ensuring I don’t hit any negative RP gains) but it’s like everybody’s saying here, Repair costs don’t work at all

 

A few players here are stating that there are no issues, get gud, learn the game etc is wrong (these players took advantage of the game mechanics in the past and the reason they can’t spend it, is they haven’t got most nations to top tier) to me the players with around 100 mill seems fine, but the players with 400 mill, tell me how your getting so much SL if it’s that easy then

 

99% of the player base like me have issues with getting SL at top tier, this isn’t down to player capabilities, it’s the game mechanics 

 

Either lack of teamwork, 1 death leavers, people to afraid of moving from behind cover and it all ties into the repair costs

 

All game modes and vehicle types need a rework, or more people will start to leave.

 

Spit has done a video which sums up my thoughts exactly on how to overcome the issues with the SL issue but your still reducing your RP gain 

 

Edited by Tubby_Vermin
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1 hour ago, Tubby_Vermin said:

the players with around 100 mill seems fine, but the players with 400 mill, tell me how your getting so much SL if it’s that easy then

It's basically the list of things I tend to share

  • Use Premium account
  • Use Premium vehicles
  • Use SL Boosters
  • Use SL Wagers
  • Play in competent Squad
  • Play at a comfortable BR around the rank II-IV area (generally less costs)
  • Win
  • Use backups to remove the first repair cost.

Some of the wagers those I know tend to use:

  • The Best Squad - achieve Best Squad - 500k - 10 stages
  • Wingman - Achieve Wingman or On Hand - 500k - 10 stages
  • Battle Victory - Win - 250k - 10 stages

So players could get over 1 million profit every game session they play, by adding it all up.

 

 

Spit is talking about a lot of the stuff I keep repeating. The whole thing about "comfortable BR", etc, is something that really rubs the wrong way with many, but it is true.

Edited by Arium
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3 hours ago, Bruce_R1 said:

It's certainly a risk to the approach we can assume Gaijin statistical analysts are aware of.

Are you sure? I don't believe that

 

2 hours ago, Dodo_Dud said:

Players become one death leavers? Well,  I mind the repair cost, I don't use the vehicle.

Why i shouldn't be able to play a vehicle that the game forced me to research and purchase?

 

3 hours ago, Dodo_Dud said:

And how do you connect KS to all this? "KS" happens no matter if vehicles are cheap or expensive.

If the plane cost 60k to repair, the player will be more likely to ks.

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26 minutes ago, Aizuk said:

Why i shouldn't be able to play a vehicle that the game forced me to research and purchase?

You quoted me wrong! Quote me right and rephrase your question, please.

 

Quote

If the plane cost 60k to repair, the player will be more likely to ks.

And why is that?

Edited by Dodo_Dud
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14 hours ago, Arium said:

No, just trying to be a bit more realistic, honest and logical. This is not the "worst game ever", nor does "repair cost make players leave in masses", etc. Many complaints can be boiled down to player attitude, lazyness, entitlement. Not a broken game. I believe we're all able to accomplish more with some effort and good choices, come with better suggestions with some better understanding and more self-critique before presenting ideas.

So a player is entitled because they shouldn't be losing SL just playing the game without unlocking anything?  I really don't like the fact that I have to have a reserve of like 1 million SL just to play EC Sim, but I do.  I don't know if I even want to play the Battleships after I unlock them because of the astronomical repair costs involved.

 

I love this game, but I definitely hate some of Gaijin's decisions....and the repair costs going up while SL bonuses went down has got to be at the top of the list....If SL income was a concern, make purchasing and crewing more expensive, not repairing.  I'd like to see flat repair costs based on BR for each vehicles rather than the "balance" BS they use now.  Tell me again why the TU-4 is cheaper to repair than the B-29?

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14 hours ago, Bruce_R1 said:

Yeah, repair costs also have the effect of reducing some crazy sacrifice plays (headon ramming), and team killing, not to mention just flying high/hiding, instead of going for kills/caps/wins. Not on an individual basis, yes, we all have lots of SL, one accidental team kill isn't going to break us, but taken in aggregate, attaching some form of tangible penalty to death is a necessary mechanic of this kind of game. All the other options that have been proposed (like, locking any crew that dies for 15 min or more no matter what) all seem worse. We can quibble on how it should be calculated but SL loss on a death helps with those problems too.

 

To be clear, a primary reason of the current economy is undoubtedly to push people off F2P and into paying for premium time and premium vehicles. Not saying otherwise. But some form of cost-to-death is necessary, too.

 

High repair cost invent problem like bomber J-ing in and out at the airfield to prevent being killed by other plane and make the game 10x longer than it need to be.

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13 hours ago, Arium said:

Spit is talking about a lot of the stuff I keep repeating. The whole thing about "comfortable BR", etc, is something that really rubs the wrong way with many, but it is true.

 

If you're playing game exclusively at certain BR with efficient lineups and spaded vehicles on low-ish to medium BR of course you don't have any SL issues. Duh.

Recently I had huge problems in attempting to spade my 8.0 - 9.0 US lineups playing against German onslaught of RADs and G91s and rest of premium toys with obsolete and inefficient lineups. Then I went back to 5.3 FRA with my newly gained EBR and I've earned 3M in 4 days of playing. If I only wanted to play FRA at 5.3, surely I would never had SL issues. 

However most of people do not play this way, they are moving through tech tree and constantly spading and buying new vehicles. Is it possible that you're oblivious to the simple fact of how most people are playing this game? You're like some crazy French king that refuses to believe there are hungry peasants in his kingdom, while surrounded by cakes and fried quails. 
 

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If the BR system was properly overhauled and vehicles were generally more balanced then you could have a more or less fixed tariff per vehicle per BR. This would iron out the ridiculous SL cost variations that currently exist which unfairly penalise newer players who want to use vehicles that they have unlocked. FWIW I'm sitting on enough SL that it doesn't affect me but I can see the effect it has on others.

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1 hour ago, Thorien_Kell said:

However most of people do not play this way, they are moving through tech tree and constantly spading and buying new vehicles.

Yeah, thats me. Already on a 10 month plan for the next talisman sale. But often I do go down, take a well earning lineup and rake up a million or two. Fine with me.

 

Quote

Is it possible that you're oblivious to the simple fact of how most people are playing this game?

I am not sure if you are too.

 

Quote

You're like some crazy French king that refuses to believe there are hungry peasants in his kingdom, while surrounded by cakes and fried quails. 

Actually, it is rather the other way around: You sound like a starving high tier king who does not like to step outside his castle to collect some of the abundant food there. You expect to get it delivered.

Edited by Dodo_Dud
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2 hours ago, Thorien_Kell said:

However most of people do not play this way, they are moving through tech tree and constantly spading and buying new vehicles

And that's exactly what we all warned them not to do. Quite often we see players rushing trough tiers to get to that one tank they want (most often than not, a top tier tank) and they do until they're able to unlock vehicles but not pay for them. Sometimes they play top tier and can't even afford to buy thebest ammo, or they cannot pay to crew the vehicle, or they're overcautious because they cannot afford repair costs - Isn't it clear that such players should not be playing top tier ?

 

It's bad for everyone, including themselves - they cannot enjoy the game, they don't properly learn how to play because they're constantly hiding or limiting themselves in some form and when they finally get to top tier, they're third class team mates due to the lack of experienced crews, good ammo, fear of getting destroyed and simply lack of experience.

These are the people that treat War Thunder not like a game but as a complete grind; for modules, for RP, for tanks, etc. The thing about finding a "comfortable BR" means focusing on good line ups, balanced BRs, good back up tanks, etc.

 

It's about playing something you enjoy, for once. I'm about to unlock every single French tank up until Tier IV and the grind wasn't a bad experience because I'm playing something I enjoy, and let me tell you, I've never had this much money ever in War Thunder with over 33kk.

Edited by Despeao
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11 hours ago, Snake509 said:

So a player is entitled because they shouldn't be losing SL just playing the game without unlocking anything?  I really don't like the fact that I have to have a reserve of like 1 million SL just to play EC Sim, but I do.  I don't know if I even want to play the Battleships after I unlock them because of the astronomical repair costs involved.

 

I love this game, but I definitely hate some of Gaijin's decisions....and the repair costs going up while SL bonuses went down has got to be at the top of the list....If SL income was a concern, make purchasing and crewing more expensive, not repairing.  I'd like to see flat repair costs based on BR for each vehicles rather than the "balance" BS they use now.  Tell me again why the TU-4 is cheaper to repair than the B-29?

When the expectation is a right to play whatever they want, however they want, with little to no consequence - yes, definitely entitlement issues. Having a reserve is just playing smart. With so many vehicles and game modes available, I hardly believe there is only 1 thing that work for people. Changing BR from time to time is good for the player and the playerbase. The variety van make the game feel a bit fresh and other BR's get populated.

 

All costs apart from repairs and ammo are just 1-time purchases. So Gaijin would be smart keeping repair and ammo costs to have a recurring money sink in the game, to have some balance in the economy. Those 2 are really the only costs we keep coming back to.

With flat costs, some vehicles would just be much more efficient earning SL. The risk vs reward would be more skewed.

I'm not too familiar with planes, but the B-29 have a history of being a cash cow, bombing the snot out of things, also ending matches quickly, etc. Something that players complained a lot about. Raising BR can't be done too much since the plane also need to be somewhat competitive among other vehicles, so balancing the potential earnings with higher economical risks is a way to go. We only pay the costs when we lose the vehicle.

 

 

8 hours ago, Aizuk said:

But hey, there is always the chance that you might get killed by a revenge bomb of a 6k SL plane.

Revenge kills are actually a lucrative kill. It tend to feel more satisfying to get some payback. Wouldn't you say?

 

 

3 hours ago, Thorien_Kell said:

If you're playing game exclusively at certain BR with efficient lineups and spaded vehicles on low-ish to medium BR of course you don't have any SL issues. Duh.

Recently I had huge problems in attempting to spade my 8.0 - 9.0 US lineups playing against German onslaught of RADs and G91s and rest of premium toys with obsolete and inefficient lineups. Then I went back to 5.3 FRA with my newly gained EBR and I've earned 3M in 4 days of playing. If I only wanted to play FRA at 5.3, surely I would never had SL issues. 

However most of people do not play this way, they are moving through tech tree and constantly spading and buying new vehicles. Is it possible that you're oblivious to the simple fact of how most people are playing this game? You're like some crazy French king that refuses to believe there are hungry peasants in his kingdom, while surrounded by cakes and fried quails. 
 

It still comes down to player performance, but yes, low/mid tier is much more forgiving, as that is also where many new players can be found.

 

There's no need to ONLY play these tiers. The idea is to switch it around from time to time, depending on what the goal is at that time. You want SL? Then play the EBR a few games. You want to spade something? Then play that. Want more efficient research? Then play whatever needed to get that. Want to play the most fun vehicles? Do it, as long as the SL can pay the potential repairs if necessary. Variation is good.

 

Regardless how most people play, the point is that certain choices are just more optimal than other choices. This is what people need to understand and come to terms with. This apply to pretty much everything in life, regardless being a king or peasant.

 

 

I do like what @Despeao also mention, he's spot on. How people make their chocies and play the game do have effects. They are usually their own biggest limitation in one way or another. Rushing up the ranks is a bad thing. Using Premium do help with that as research is going really quick now. So players end up with bad lineups, low SL, facing new vehicles with little experience with, etc. It will be a rough experience.

Playing something enjoyable is highly recommended, regardless what BR that is. Just go for it! But! If the costs are higher, there will be higher requirements to break even and make profits, which need to be kept in mind.

 

As a sidenote. French IV is a lot of fun. Around 7.0 in many nations is a lot of fun. My favorite area for sure.

Edited by Arium
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You people are unbelievable. Btw I'm certain if Gaijin tomorrow introduces premium ammo, there would be at least ... three guys, maybe more defending it, here on the forums. Yes those are you. 

If I'm a paying customer of course I need to be able to play whatever I want whenever I want. To suggest anything else is preposterous. The whole idea "you should earn your right! to play certain things, by farming SL, to play things that you had already researched and farmed" is insane beyond belief. What. The. F.

This whole greedy, stingy SL economy policy does not do this game any favors. Do you know how many people try WT, like it and then they see how "fee to play" model is a lie, they get starved for SL, cannot afford new toys and then leave forever? I know: too many. War thunder should be far more popular then it is! It is spectacular game held back only by the short sightedness and greed of it's developers and helped by elitist unreasonable players such as yourselves.

We already have economy that limits the progress, it's called RP. To use SL as "annoying lever" and as "balance" tool is demonstrably wrong on so many levels. It affect whole community in the negative way and people who found a way to abuse certain vehicle still may do so. You all are delusional but whatever. You may believe as you wish, I'm done. 

Hinyanawi_Tenshi (Posted )

Please do not:
1.1.1. Insult any forum members, Gaijin employee or forum staff.
1.1.2. Start or participate in flame wars, intentionally derail a topic, or post useless spam messages in moderated areas.
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12 hours ago, Snake509 said:

Tell me again why the TU-4 is cheaper to repair than the B-29?

Because historically the average B-29 has survived longer and made more SL per death than the Tu-4, so the algorithm they use spits out the repair cost number that matches. That could be a number of things, including plane capabilities, the lineups they are each versing, and the average quality of the player flying them.

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On 11/06/2020 at 20:56, Stuhlfleisch said:

you can still play your favourite vehicle as often as you like, at least you won't be forced to not use it at some point, because you are starting to run out of SL.

 

But preventing you from playing your "favourite vehicle" is the whole point, why would Gaijin change it?

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48 minutes ago, Bruce_R1 said:

Because historically the average B-29 has survived longer and made more SL per death than the Tu-4, so the algorithm they use spits out the repair cost number that matches. That could be a number of things, including plane capabilities, the lineups they are each versing, and the average quality of the player flying them.

Then lower the SL multiplier from the B-29?  If you start looking at averages, your data can get skewed, if you have two guys that get really good games, frequently, then you have average players getting a good game every now and then, and repair prices are jacked up astronomically, then you're not punishing the good players as much, you're punishing the average players more.  This isn't limited to the B-29 but could be said for any vehicle.  

 

You shouldn't lose large amounts of SL playing this game, negligible rewards would be better than not being able to play.  And the argument that "forcing people to play lower BR's for SL makes those BR's populated" isn't a good argument, make a reason to go down to those BRs from a gameplay standpoint.  They had this and got rid of it for whatever reason, Chronicles was my favorite event thing they did.

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1 hour ago, Thorien_Kell said:

You people are unbelievable. Btw I'm certain if Gaijin tomorrow introduces premium ammo, there would be at least ... three guys, maybe more defending it, here on the forums. Yes those are you. 

If I'm a paying customer of course I need to be able to play whatever I want whenever I want. To suggest anything else is preposterous. The whole idea "you should earn your right! to play certain things, by farming SL, to play things that you had already researched and farmed" is insane beyond belief. What. The. F.

This whole greedy, stingy SL economy policy does not do this game any favors. Do you know how many people try WT, like it and then they see how "fee to play" model is a lie, they get starved for SL, cannot afford new toys and then leave forever? I know: too many. War thunder should be far more popular then it is! It is spectacular game held back only by the short sightedness and greed of it's developers and helped by elitist unreasonable players such as yourselves.

We already have economy that limits the progress, it's called RP. To use SL as "annoying lever" and as "balance" tool is demonstrably wrong on so many levels. It affect whole community in the negative way and people who found a way to abuse certain vehicle still may do so. You all are delusional but whatever. You may believe as you wish, I'm done. 

For the record, I would not support the idea of premium ammo. The current ammo cost are not close to be defined as premium ammo either. Regarding ammo though, there are situations where the stock ammo is fully viable and could be used to save SL and actually be more effective at destroying the target.

 

Paying in War Thunder only speed up your progress, it doesn't remove costs or the need for costs. What Premium account and premium vehicles do is amplifying your rewards based on your own performance. So expecting to play whatever you want is indeed an entitlement issue. The way the game is built up is generating currency to spend, which is then repeated. What is insane about that? It's in pretty much any game with some type of progression.

 

It's not necessarily greedy because YOU do not get what YOU want. You have many options to get to play what you want, but if you refuse to take part of any of those options, that makes it a you-problem. You're limiting yourself.

When people see "free-to-play", this is basically what they would expect. Grindy game with micro-transactions. It's synonym with "F2P" nowadays.

You have to keep in mind that vehicular combat games are not overly represented, it's a bit of a niche. Especially since we're talking about tanks, planes and ships which mainly people that served or have some military interest, some history buffs, etc, would be interested in. So I'm not surprised that people try it out and then leave, as the game wasn't for them.

 

RP and SL have also distinct differences in what they are managing in the game. The only recurring costs are repairs and ammo, which set RP and SL apart. There's no need for RP when you're done with it, but there's always a need for SL due to repairs and ammo costs. These types of costs are needed to not inflate the economy making everyone millionares. At that point SL has pretty much lost its value. The player has to balance RP and SL, because one can progress faster than the other. SL is connected to so many things, which I think is too many for people to handle and understand. They just don't see the connections and therefore can not understand the usefulness of it.

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Snake509 said:

Then lower the SL multiplier from the B-29?  If you start looking at averages, your data can get skewed, if you have two guys that get really good games, frequently, then you have average players getting a good game every now and then, and repair prices are jacked up astronomically, then you're not punishing the good players as much, you're punishing the average players more.  This isn't limited to the B-29 but could be said for any vehicle.  

 

You shouldn't lose large amounts of SL playing this game, negligible rewards would be better than not being able to play.  And the argument that "forcing people to play lower BR's for SL makes those BR's populated" isn't a good argument, make a reason to go down to those BRs from a gameplay standpoint.  They had this and got rid of it for whatever reason, Chronicles was my favorite event thing they did.

It's not always about the rewards. Remember that they also touch "quantity". Certain powerful vehicles you do not want to see too many of, so the cost is incresed to also reduce ther number. In such cases, the SL multiplier can not be too low. There has to be some "risk vs reward" balance.

Imagine seeing a full team of Lorraine 40t's, which would likely be a stomp if players are somewhat competent.

 

There are ways to play the game without losing large amounts of SL. Again, some ares are much more forgiving, but in the end it's still player performance that decide if you lose or not. Too small rewards would slow down the pace a lot unless also static costs would be changed to reflect that pace. As I've stated in the past, what is your goal? Is it SL, then play where it's more optimal. Is it research? Then play where it's more optimal. Is it just fun? Play what is fun. It's really simple.

Edited by Arium
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7 hours ago, Arium said:

Using Premium do help with that as research is going really quick now. So players end up with bad lineups, low SL, facing new vehicles with little experience with, etc. It will be a rough experience.

 

Using premium is make you progress faster both RP and SL.

those Bad lineups and Low SL only ever happen if you DID NOT using Premium.

but when free player without Premium acc or premium vehicle they face the worst.

they usually have low SL because of buying new vehicle +crew train +Modification then they take a longer time to research a decent backup for their new lineups without premium.

Only downside of having premium is you go to high tier with lower skill than the one not using it.

 

 

And I don't really sure what you mean about "Comfortable BR"

you mean BR that comfortable for SL balance? or BR that you feel comfortable to play?

if you mean BR that you can get SL with, which usually mean low BR around 1.0-6.7 it may comfortable for SL gaining but what if you don't find those BR feel fun to play?

that mean you don't suppose to having fun in War Thunder? player would rather quit playing WT than be force to play what they don't feel fun.

Edited by Watakaze
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1 hour ago, Thorien_Kell said:

Yea yea. Keep telling that to yourself. Us, plebs, don't understand the incredible "usefulness" of SL economy, for sure : ) I'll tell you what usefulness of SL economy is - it is here to annoy the money out of general populace. That approach is wrong and disrespectful towards player base and it's harmful for the market reach of the title. Theoretically it helps in game balance but that argument is a bunch of baloney.

SL and RP systems are so much connected that they are redundant: If you are earning more RP thru usage of PT / premium vehicles, you do need proportionately similarly higher amounts of SL. If the player is leveled highly enough that he does not need RP any more, SL also stops being an issue for him - those two systems are redundant. 

Here's the claim that will blow off your mind: Are you ready? If the SL economy was removed from the game entirely, this game would only benefit from it. Everybody would like it, and developer income would remain the same in the long run. Crazy talk, huh? 

I'd argue that most complaints about it are due to not understanding it. They do not know why it's there, which many admit to. They also say that there are not good reasons for it to exist, so clearly they do not understand its function in the game. It's understandable that players might now know why it's there and how it's supposed to interact with mechanics and players. So when players are claiming that it's more negative than not, at the same time as the player himself choose to neglect many of the options available to gain SL, it's just obvious that they do not know what they are talking about and the critique fall apart. The problem is then not the game, it's the player.

 

Annoyed players do not pay as much as happy players. You don't spend more money as you get frustrated or angry, do you? "Oh, you pissed me off now, I'm going to invest the crap out of this game!", does that sound remotely familiar? No, of course not. The "frustration" in combination with spending only work as long as the player have fun and enjoy the game.

 

It does affect ingame balance. Do you at times feel reluctant to play the more expensive vehicles, and do you let them repair in the hangar for days? If yes on any of those two, then SL actually work to some degree in one of its areas.

 

If you earn both at the same rate they kind of work too similar. It's a better system to split them apart and have them be gained differently, which prolong player stay. This is from a developer point of interest. The economy is not only for the sake of us as players.

It will highly depend on how much SL profits are made. As long as costs are a factor, the player need to care about SL balance. I don't have to care anymore, not the way I play and the options I choose to use. This give me freedom. What I'm saying also is that You can have that too.

 

If the economy would be removed we'd see players be done with the game faster, and player retention be a problem. We'd see more quitters due to map configuration, team balance, uptiers, etc than due to repairs. We'd see more players playing only high tier also since they would not be uptiered anymore, causing other BR ranges have less players available. We'd also see more reckless playstyles since losing a vehicle would be without consequence, they can just jump into a new match without care. So overall the game would be worse. As player retention would be problematic we'd likely see less income to Gaijin and therefore also less content back to us, and continuing on that track, especially in combination with the lack of incentive to get premium time, buy premium vehicles, etc, there would certainly be less money in to the company.

 

Sounds pretty "good", huh? The game's longevity would likely be shortened.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Watakaze said:

 

Using premium is make you progress faster both RP and SL.

those Bad lineups and Low SL only ever happen if you DID NOT using Premium.

but when free player without Premium acc or premium vehicle they face the worst.

they usually have low SL because of buying new vehicle +crew train +Modification then they take a longer time to research a decent backup for their new lineups without premium.

Only downside of having premium is you go to high tier with lower skill than the one not using it.

I know it increase SL as well, but generally RP comes faster than the SL if only applying Premium time. So there's still incentive to get Premium vehicles. The main selling point for the premium vehicles is SL gain, especially low/mid tier since the effective research only go up 1 rank and down all the way to rank 1, which is the same for high tier premium vehicles too, which effectively is the whole tech tree.

It's doable for a free-to-play player to also reach millions, but there will be fewer options to choose from. A player can still play together with competent players in a squad, can still play within a comfortable BR with more forgiving vehicles, use boosters and wagers, get access to the warbond shop and free premium vehicles. Some of the best from the past I've gotten are the KV I C 765, Chi-Nu II, T20. I've earned a lot with those. It's a bit different now with the battlepass, but warbonds and the shop is still accessable.

 

13 minutes ago, Watakaze said:

And I don't really sure what you mean about "Comfortable BR"

you mean BR that comfortable for SL balance? or BR that you feel comfortable to play?

if you mean BR that you can get SL with, which usually mean low BR around 1.0-6.7 it may comfortable for SL gaining but what if you don't find those BR feel fun to play?

that mean you don't suppose to having fun in War Thunder? player would rather quit playing WT than be force to play what they don't feel fun.

Comfortable BR is a BR range with a lineup you feel is easier to manage, an area you can play well in. When playing well, you tend to lose less vehicles and gain more rewards, so for the sake of SL it's recommended to play in such a comfortable area.

Personally I have a soft spot for 7.0. I have enough experience to deal with most tanks reliably, and I have a good understanding what my vehicles in my lineups can and can not do. This allow me to play well and gain rewards above my own average. Now the costs are slightly higher than if I would go down to for example 4.7, or 5.7, etc. 

 

If it's not fun, that choice is up to the player if it's worth it or not. It is a more optimal area to gain SL regardless what we think about it due to the profit/cost ratio. In the end, it's similar to any hobby/lifestyle/etc. A more costly hobby/lifestyle will require enough money in the bank or a decent enough job to pay for it. If that can not be balanced, the hobby/lifestyle can not continue. That's effectively what we deal with in the game. But since it's a F2P game, some consider it to be their right to get what they want, how they want, when they want. Sure it still has to be fun, but we do not get access to things we have not "worked" for. That's by design.

Edited by Arium
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