tournaments Ban SB controls/Mouse Joystick in Air RB tournaments

[ImStuckStepBro_ 42]

All that needs to be said is that people playing in SB controls or Mouse Joystick have the ability to push their plane further and turn much tighter. In my opinion playing in SB controls is an advantage compared to people who use mouse aim, the only downside being worse aim, though it can be mitigated by forcing a turning play-style. I know a lot of top Air RB duelists also agree with me in that SB controls should only be allowed in Air SB tournaments to put everyone on an equal playing field. 

 

Cheers.  

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

27 minutes ago, LegioXFulminata said:

All that needs to be said is that people playing in SB controls or Mouse Joystick have the ability to push their plane further and turn much tighter. In my opinion playing in SB controls is an advantage compared to people who use mouse aim, the only downside being worse aim, though it can be mitigated by forcing a turning play-style. I know a lot of top Air RB duelists also agree with me in that SB controls should only be allowed in Air SB tournaments to put everyone on an equal playing field. 

 

Cheers.  

 

 

Are you sure you are talking SB controls i .e. Full real controls? 

 

Not realistic controls or simplified controls? 

 

Because the instructor with the AoA limit can always pull the perfect max AoA without stalling the plane. A human with full real controls cannot, and therefore can't turn as tight. 

 

With simplified or realistic control (don't know Wich one of those) you have the same AoA limit enforced by the instructor. With that I agree a joystick player will have an advantage. 

 

But(!!!) that is NOT the SB control setup. SB uses full real controls Wich is pretty much always at a disadvantage against the instructor. 

 

So you aren't really talking about SB controls. With controls you need to differentiate between "mouse aim" "simplified controls" "realistic controls" and "full real controls"

 

 

[rgaba3gkto 4]

Delete full control and mec in RB, yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes?

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

8 minutes ago, _LadyKuromeces said:

Delete full control and mec in RB, yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes?

 

Then they will kill you with simplified and realistic controls. Those are more advantageous to full real controls anyway. 

[rgaba3gkto 4]

3 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

Then they will kill you with simplified and realistic controls. Those are more advantageous to full real controls anyway. 

They want to remove these control modes, leave only aiming with the mouse. But they do not want to remove MEC. 

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

1 minute ago, _LadyKuromeces said:

They want to remove these control modes, leave only aiming with the mouse. But they do not want to remove MEC. 

 

Then they should write that in the suggestion. Because SB controls is only "full real controls" simplified and realistic aren't allowed in SB therefore aren't SB controls. Wich is funny as with full real the disadvantages outweigh the advantages by a long shot and the people killing you in RB tournaments are unlikely to use full real, rather realistic or simplified. 

 

The way the suggestion is written it would only remove full real and would not mitigate the problem as intended. 

[rgaba3gkto 4]

1 minute ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

Then they should write that in the suggestion. Because SB controls is only "full real controls" simplified and realistic aren't allowed in SB therefore aren't SB controls. Wich is funny as with full real the disadvantages outweigh the advantages by a long shot and the people killing you in RB tournaments are unlikely to use full real, rather realistic or simplified. 

 

The way the suggestion is written it would only remove full real and would not mitigate the problem as intended. 

Ahahhahahahaha, by the way, yes. 

[Vladdy_Daddy11 120]

56 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

Are you sure you are talking SB controls i .e. Full real controls? 

 

Not realistic controls or simplified controls? 

Proposal is to force instructor in air RB 1v1 tournaments. 
Only mouse aim or simplified controls. No full-real or realistic controls.
Gajin already have half-finished custom option for that.

Spoiler

 

56 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

Because the instructor with the AoA limit can always pull the perfect max AoA without stalling the plane. A human with full real controls cannot, and therefore can't turn as tight. 

57 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

But(!!!) that is NOT the SB control setup. SB uses full real controls Wich is pretty much always at a disadvantage against the instructor. 

If you have no experience in tournaments and competitive 1v1, please refrain from misinforming statements.

Spoiler

 

"Human" can control exact AoA and AoS with 0.1-0.3 degree accuracy. And pull 3+ degree more in case of 109f4 
Realistic\Full controls gives you advantage in turn radius, sustained turn time and MER if you need it. Which is completely everything  expect aiming.

26 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

Then they should write that in the suggestion. Because SB controls is only "full real controls" simplified and realistic aren't allowed in SB therefore aren't SB controls. Wich is funny as with full real the disadvantages outweigh the advantages by a long shot and the people killing you in RB tournaments are unlikely to use full real, rather realistic or simplified. 

Rb 1v1 players understand perfectly what he meant. No need to dig into words definitions.

[rgaba3gkto 4]

.

Edited April 25, 2020 by _LadyKuromeces

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

1 hour ago, RenamedTV said:

Proposal is to force instructor in air RB 1v1 tournaments. 
Only mouse aim or simplified controls. No full-real or realistic controls.

 

Simplified is the one with the biggest advantage though. It is joystick amplified by the instructor. 

 

Quote

 

Gajin already have half-finished custom option for that.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

If you have no experience in tournaments and competitive 1v1, please refrain from misinforming statements.

 

I do/did tournaments. 

 

Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

 

"Human" can control exact AoA and AoS with 0.1-0.3 degree accuracy. And pull 3+ degree more in case of 109f4 
Realistic\Full controls gives you advantage in turn radius, sustained turn time and MER if you need it. Which is completely everything  expect aiming.

 

Not to that degree. The people beating you don't use full real. 

 

The video isn't showing the time it takes and the number of correction needed to get into that position.

 

Quote

Rb 1v1 players understand perfectly what he meant. No need to dig into words definitions.

 

Maybe... But gaijin needs to understand it as well for a suggestion to work. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by DerGrafVonZahl

[sykes247 46]

I think Renamed explained it well - even if not alot of people make the effort to "abuse" that mechanic, the argument for a forced instructor is clear to understand.
 

4 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

Not to that degree. The people beating you don't use full real. 

Just for your own information: In the tournaments I participate, I see Renamed usually at the top of the leaderboard...

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

56 minutes ago, sykes247 said:

I think Renamed explained it well - even if not alot of people make the effort to "abuse" that mechanic, the argument for a forced instructor is clear to understand.
 

 

56 minutes ago, sykes247 said:

Just for your own information: In the tournaments I participate, I see Renamed usually at the top of the leaderboard...

 

So? How does he know if others use full real real or simplified? Especially if simplified and real give the most advantages. 

 

I know a lot about what full real controls can do and what they can't as I use them all the time. Also I know more what control. Modes are used in sim... And real and simplified are not SB controls. 

 

I am fine with all of them banned in RB tournaments. But saying that they are all SB controls is a misrepresentation. 

[Vladdy_Daddy11 120]

1 hour ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

So? How does he know if others use full real real or simplified? Especially if simplified and real give the most advantages. 

1. Replays
2. Animation of flow separation on wing tips. And its pretty obvious, when you lose angle in duel without any reason expect full controls on enemy part

 

[Thundy_ 100]

Gaijin's argument will always be, if players are skilled enough to exploit something that gives advantages in some areas, but not others, they will not take action.. However personally I would like to see a level playing field. A lock on MEC and the use of Mouse Joy / Joystick usage would help to provide this. That being said it does provide a skill gap between those able to use this and those like me, who have not invested time into learning and binding said tools :P

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

7 hours ago, RenamedTV said:

1. Replays

 

 

How do you differentiate real from full real? Real is full real but with autotrim

 

It would look the same. 

 

7 hours ago, RenamedTV said:

 

2. Animation of flow separation on wing tips. And its pretty obvious, when you lose angle in duel without any reason expect full controls on enemy part

 

 

Or real controls. Why do you think real controls cannot achieve that? 

[Vladdy_Daddy11 120]

3 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

How do you differentiate real from full real? Real is full real but with autotrim

You ask about simplified.(I might understand your question wrong)  This controls push same AoA that instructor does. I don't see any problem people using it
Sustained turn time exactly the same as well as turn radius.

4 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

Or real controls. Why do you think real controls cannot achieve that? 

I just say it again.

20 hours ago, RenamedTV said:

Proposal is to force instructor in air RB 1v1 tournaments. 
Only mouse aim or simplified controls. No full-real or realistic controls.

Spoiler

 

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

32 minutes ago, RenamedTV said:

You ask about simplified.(I might understand your question wrong)  This controls push same AoA that instructor does. I don't see any problem people using it
Sustained turn time exactly the same as well as turn radius.

 

No my point was that banning Full real Controls won't ban the most advantageous control method. simplified uses the max sustained AoA without interferences like prop torque.

Of course some might be more effectife with Real controls.... but no one... absolutely noone will be the most effective with full real controls! 

 

32 minutes ago, RenamedTV said:

I just say it again.

 

The instructo IS(!!!) active in real controls... only full real deactivates it completely.

 

32 minutes ago, RenamedTV said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

This is fine by me... but as i said before... this is not what the suggestion says.

[FBCSuffers 386]

So my takeway from this topic: People use harder, more skilled controls and can beat me cause they are just better at the game, thus remove them?

[Vladdy_Daddy11 120]

8 minutes ago, LeNath said:

So my takeway from this topic: People use harder, more skilled controls and can beat me cause they are just better at the game, thus remove them?

Not really the case. RB duel community like duels with instructor.(both sides use that type of plane control)
We don't want rb 1v1 turned into SB 1v1 with markers and 3rd person view.
I personally fly very well with mouse-joystick but i dont spam it in rb tourneys

[Ukiii 66]

52 minutes ago, LeNath said:

So my takeway from this topic: People use harder, more skilled controls and can beat me cause they are just better at the game, thus remove them?

your takeaway from this topic is that people use harder, more skilled controls they'd never use in a random battle only to gain advantage in 1v1 duel and when they get it, they switch back to mouse aim to finish the job.

 

u have a point. compromise is to not let players switch back and forth between two controls modes

 

tho to make it bit less try-hardy, thus bit more fun is to force either mouse aim or simplified controls, vast majority of ppl that play 1v1 duels would prefer this option

Edited April 26, 2020 by Ukiii

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

2 hours ago, RenamedTV said:

Not really the case. RB duel community like duels with instructor.(both sides use that type of plane control)
We don't want rb 1v1 turned into SB 1v1 with markers and 3rd person view.
I personally fly very well with mouse-joystick but i dont spam it in rb tourneys

 

You obviously don't know much about sim then. 

 

How does this turn into sim with real controls? Sim does not use real controls it is not allowed. 

 

That was my point from the start. By claiming to ban SB controls you will not achieve your goal. 

[Ukiii 66]

we got your point, u can stop spamming now

 

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

20 minutes ago, Ukiii said:

we got your point, u can stop spamming now

 

 

Well then Adress the issue correctly. 

If you get the point, then don't repeat the mistake. Simple as that

[cw21_main 2]

no mec and sim controls in rb tourneys!!!

[Hardmoor 2,195]

what stops anyone else from using MEC and MouseJoy? Isn't that MinMaxing the thing of tournaments?