[1.95.0.125] Japanese bombs Incorrect explosive mass and filler type

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

1.The full name of the vehicle affected. If the problem is isolated to one difficulty setting (e.g. Simulator), specify which.

 

Bombers

• Ki-32 
• Ki-21-Ia  
• Ki-49-I
• Ki-49-IIa
• Ki-49-IIb
• Ki-49-IIb/L
• Ki-67-I ko
• Ki-67-I otsu

 

Fighters

• Ki-43-II
• Ki-44-II hei
• Ki-44-II otsu
• Ki-61-I otsu
• Ki-100
• Ki-100-II
• Ki-83
• Ki-84 ko
• Ki-84 otsu
• Ki-84 hei
• Ki-87 
• Ki-94-II

 

 

2. A detailed description of the issue you have or what you see as being erroneous regarding its representation in-game.

Currently in game the 50 kg Army Type 94 GPHE bomb has a incorrect explosive mass of 19.6kg and filler type, historically it used Shimose,Yellow powder or Picric acid as its known in-game currently its using TNT which was also used in it but much less of it historically.

 

3. Unless the data is taken from an official Gaijin statement, please provide a documented test and provide the Client Log from that session.

 

As it is currently in game

 

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4. A detailed description of the fix you suggest. Provide sources including reference that underline your position.

I suggest making it 20kg of 78% Picric Acid and 22% TNT

 

Sources 

 

TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 6

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

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Translation No. 9, 3 December 1944, data on Japanese bombs and explosive. Report No. 3-d(8), USSBS Index Section 6

Page 3

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/4009462?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F4009462&__lang=en

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Japanese Bombs and Fuzes U.S.N.B.D.

Page 43

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

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2020_03_01_16_07_07__14172.clog

Edited March 1, 2020 by SasquatchFox360

[Pony51 6,545]

5 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

Currently in game the 50 kg Army Type 94 GPHE bomb has a incorrect explosive mass of 19.6kg and filler type, historically it used Shimose,Yellow powder or Picric acid as its known in-game currently its using TNT which was also used in it but much less of it historically.

 

I did some checking.

Japanese used Picirc extensively, and it looks like all the bombs in game are TNT.

Please check all the Army and Navy bombs for correct explosive.

 

Japanese called Picric Acid either "Shimose" (Navy) or "Yellow powder" (Army)

 

We need a complete audit.

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

60 kg Navy Type 97 Number 6 ground bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Shimose,Yellow powder or Picric acid

 

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TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 48

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

 250 kg Navy Type Number 25 Model 2 bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Shimose,Yellow powder or Picric acid

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Japanese Bombs and Fuzes U.S.N.B.D.

Page 60

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

500 kg Navy Type Number 50 Model 2 bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Shimose,Yellow powder,Picric acid or Type 98 which consist of 70% Trinitroanisol  and 30% Hexanitrodiphenylamine or 
H. N . D. for short 

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TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 59

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

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USNTMJ-200E-0465-0531 Report 0-23

Page 22

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HghN-BJYxJisAeztu1GwrYiG1IyMFqhP

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by SasquatchFox360
Added another source stating that 500kg also used shimose

[Pony51 6,545]

2 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

60 kg Navy Type 97 Number 6 ground bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Shimose,Yellow powder or Picric acid

 

Excellent adding all the Navy bombs.

[aizenns 3,587]

@SasquatchFox360 @Pony51

Troublesome, at first Japanese Army used TNT (茶褐薬) for bomb explosives.

Normally, Japanese army were using TNT for explosives. However, production of TNT requires toluen made from petroleum. Because of it, during the Pacific war they used Picric acid made from coals.

 

JACAR Ref. C01001354200

陸軍技術本部 (昭和九年) 「航空機弾薬九四式１００瓩爆弾及同九四式５０瓩爆弾仮制式制定の件 」

Army Technical Headquarters (1934) "About temporary adoption for aviation ammunition Type 94 100 kg bomb and aviation ammunition Type 94 50 kg bomb"

 

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• Type 94 50 kg Bomb [九四式五十瓩爆弾]
  • Total weight of bomb: about 47.800 kg
  • Explosives: TNT, 19.26 kg
• 12th Year Type 50 kg Bomb [十二年式五十瓩爆弾] (note: outdated bomb, shown for comparison)
  • Total weight of bomb: about 53 kg
  • Explosives: TNT, 28.97 kg 

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• Type 94 100 kg Bomb [九四式百瓩爆弾]
  • Total weight of bomb: 109.50 kg
  • Explosives: TNT, 45.50 kg
• 12th Year Type 100 kg Bomb [十二年式百瓩爆弾] (note: outdated bomb, shown for comparison)
  • Total weight of bomb: 113.00 kg
  • Explosives: TNT, 61.990 kg

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**EDIT**

In 1938, Japanese army adopted "No.2 Anga powder". This explosive consisted by 48% Ammonium niterate, 32% Guanigine niterate and 20% RDX. According to the document of IJA, power of this powder was same as Picric Acid.

 

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JACAR Ref. C01001619500

陸軍航空本部 (昭和十三年) 「二號安瓦薬制式制定ノ件」

Army Aviation Headquarters (1938) "About adopt No.2 Anga powder"

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JACAR Ref.C01001741100

陸軍航空本部(昭和十三年) 「九二式十五瓩　九四式五十瓩　九四式百瓩　九二式二百五十瓩　九二式五百瓩爆弾假制式図中改正ノ件 」

Army Aviation Headquarters (1938) "about Changes of adopt formula of Type 92 15 kg, Type 94 50 kg, Type 94 100 kg, Type 92 250 kg, Type 92 500 kg bomb"

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Type 92 15 kg Bomb (Special) / 九二式十五瓩爆弾(特)

• Explosives
  • No.2 Anga powder: 2.100 kg
  • TNT: 0.310 kg

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Type 94 50 kg Bomb (Special) / 九四式五十瓩爆弾(特)

• Explosives
  • No.2 Anga powder: 16.180 kg
  • TNT: 4.200 kg

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Type 94 100 kg Bomb (Special) / 九四式百瓩爆弾(特)

• Explosives
  • No.2 Anga powder: 39.300 kg
  • TNT: 4.900 kg

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Type 92 250 kg Bomb (Special) / 九二式二百五十瓩爆弾(特)

• Explosives
  • No.2 Anga powder: 91.600 kg
  • TNT: 7.360 kg

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Type 92 500 kg Bomb (Special) / 九二式五百瓩爆弾(特)

• Explosives
  • No.2 Anga powder: 198.400 kg
  • TNT: 11.310 kg

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[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

1 hour ago, aizenns said:

@SasquatchFox360 @Pony51

Troublesome, at first Japanese Army used TNT (茶褐薬) for bomb explosives.

Normally, Japanese army were using TNT for explosives. However, production of TNT requires toluen made from petroleum. Because of it, during the Pacific war they used Picric acid made from coals.

 

JACAR Ref. C01001354200

陸軍技術本部 (昭和九年) 「航空機弾薬九四式１００瓩爆弾及同九四式５０瓩爆弾仮制式制定の件 」

Army Technical Headquarters (1934) "About temporary adoption for aviation ammunition Type 94 100 kg bomb and aviation ammunition Type 94 50 kg bomb"

 

 

There is the use of tnt in these documents aswell with a booster charge consisting of RDX however picric acid is more potent compared to tnt and RDX is more potent compared to picric acid 

[aizenns 3,587]

59 minutes ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

There is the use of tnt in these documents aswell with a booster charge consisting of RDX however picric acid is more potent compared to tnt and RDX is more potent compared to picric acid 

According to document of IJA, explosive power of No.2 Anga-powder is same as Picric acid. It is not a single RDX. No.2 Anga powder is mix of 48% Ammonium niterate, 32% Guanigine niterate and 20% RDX.

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[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

1 hour ago, aizenns said:

According to document of IJA, explosive power of No.2 Anga-powder is same as Picric acid. It is not a single RDX. No.2 Anga powder is mix of 48% Ammonium niterate, 32% Guanigine niterate and 20% RDX.

  Hide contents

 

Thanks for posting this @aizenns 

 

I understand this but I cant use this in the bug report simply cause it isn't a standardized test conducted that compares its RE directly with TNT if we could get someone that has a document showing how RE it is to TNT then we can use it otherwise we might end up with bombs being ineffective confusing the developers that is why I will try sticking to Picric if possible otherwise someone will have to make an entire new bug report specifically for Anga Powder explaining its RE and how to implement its multiplier in game

 

I also see that those are special variants of the bombs which usually had a different filler compared to the usual any help correcting me is much appreciated I dont take the allied reports very seriously as they aren't all correct .  

 

Only saw now that ANGA powder has the same as RE as Picric 

Edited March 2, 2020 by SasquatchFox360

[Pony51 6,545]

On 02/03/2020 at 03:56, aizenns said:

Troublesome, at first Japanese Army used TNT (茶褐薬) for bomb explosives.

 

Gaijin typically uses the best equipped features, so I believe they will choose the later Picric Acid.

 

On 02/03/2020 at 03:56, aizenns said:

In 1938, Japanese army adopted "No.2 Anga powder". This explosive consisted by 48% Ammonium niterate, 32% Guanigine niterate and 20% RDX. According to the document of IJA, power of this powder was same as Picric Acid.

...

Japanese army were using TNT for explosives. However, production of TNT requires toluen made from petroleum. Because of it, during the Pacific war they used Picric acid made from coals.

 

So TNT was difficult to procure after 1938 due to US Trade embargo, the supply of material from USA was cut.

"Beginning in 1938, the U.S. adopted a succession of increasingly restrictive trade restrictions with Japan. This included terminating its 1911 commercial treaty with Japan in 1939, further tightened by the Export Control Act of 1940."

 

"No.2 Anga powder" is effectively = to Picric Acid.

 

I see that TNT is still used in smaller quantity.  I assume it was a booster charge for the No.2 Anga.

 

It is better that all bombs use No.2 Anga (including small amount of TNT as part of mix), as that is what was aviable in Japan.  

It is likely the smaller 50kg bombs had TNT because it a large stockpile made before the embargo.  As the war continued the stock was consumed and new production also switched to No.2 Anga.

@aizenns concur? (agree with me?)

 

 

The history of explosive supply also is useful to explain why TNT was not used by Japanese.

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

500 kg Number Type 2 50 Model 1 GP(SAP) bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Type 98 which consist of 70% Trinitroanisol  and 30% Hexanitrodiphenylamine or 
H. N . D. for short 

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Japanese Bombs and Fuzes U.S.N.B.D.

Page 75

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

800 kg Navy Type 99 Number 80 AP bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Type 91 explosive Trinitroanisol

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Japanese Bombs and Fuzes U.S.N.B.D.

Page 82

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

800 kg Navy Type Number 80 Model 1 bomb has incorrect filler type I suggest using Mod 2, historically it used

• Shimose Mod 2
• Type 91 Trinitroanisol Mod 3
• Type 98 which consist of 70% Trinitroanisol  and 30% Hexanitrodiphenylamine or H. N . D. for short Mod 4

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TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 56

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

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USNTMJ-200E-0465-0531 Report 0-23

Page 24

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HghN-BJYxJisAeztu1GwrYiG1IyMFqhP

 

250 kg Navy Type 98 Number 25 bomb has incorrect filler type historically it used Picric acid 

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Japanese Bombs and Fuzes U.S.N.B.D.

Page 54

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by SasquatchFox360
Forgot to add Type 98 No.25 to list

[Pony51 6,545]

2 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

Only saw now that ANGA powder has the same as RE as Picric 

 

For simplicity I think calling it No.2 Anga (with TNT as part of package) is best.  This formation seems to be unique, although it is same power as Picric.

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

1 minute ago, Pony51 said:

 

For simplicity I think calling it No.2 Anga (with TNT as part of package) is best.  This formation seems to be unique, although it is same power as Picric.

It is quite confusing I have a couple of documents with translations of the different explosive types I'll have to go through them not to say that they're correct however I'd rather wait for aizenns to properly give us a translation 

[Pony51 6,545]

21 minutes ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

70% Trinitroanisol  and 30% Hexanitrodiphenylamine or 
H. N . D. for short 

That does complicate report a bit.

 

If you could please, make a table of all the bombs?

Here is game list

There is a table already, but cannot find it right now.

 

 

Branch (army or navy)

Size

Name 

(etc)

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

4 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

That does complicate report a bit.

 

If you could please, make a table of all the bombs?

Here is game list

There is a table already, but cannot find it right now.

 

 

Branch (army or navy)

Size

Name 

(etc)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AOUv-5BjePXOX9drfhKumh_drX8Tjh6b/edit#gid=752206790

 

All the ones I've posted are naval not a single one is Army except for the original post and the ones Aizenns posted is Army 

Edited March 2, 2020 by SasquatchFox360

[Pony51 6,545]

5 minutes ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AOUv-5BjePXOX9drfhKumh_drX8Tjh6b/edit#gid=752206790

Yes, perfect!

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All the ones I've posted are naval not a single one is Army except for the original post and the ones Aizenns posted is Army 

That is good, both can help compile all the bombs.

 

Will be back in about an hour.

 

Army Bombs

• Type 94 50 kg - 50 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1934
• Type 94 100 kg - 100 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1934
• Type 92 250 kg - 250 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1932
• Type 92 500 kg - 500 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1932

Navy Bombs

• Type 97 №.6 - 60 kg ordinary bomb accepted into service in 1937
• №.25 Model 2 - 250 kg ordinary bomb, accepted into service prior to 1938
• Type 98 №.25 - 250 kg ordinary bomb, accepted into service in 1938
• №.50 Model 2 - 500 kg ordinary bomb, accepted into service prior to 1942
• Type 2 №.50 Model 1 - 500 kg semi armor piercing bomb, accepted into service in 1942
• №.80 Model 1 - 800 kg ordinary bomb, accepted into service prior to 1939
• Type 99 №.80 Mk 5 - 800 kg armor-piercing bomb, accepted into service in 1939

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Army Bombs

• Type 94 50 kg - 50 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1934
• Type 94 100 kg - 100 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1934
• Type 92 250 kg - 250 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1932
• Type 92 500 kg - 500 kg GPHE bomb accepted into service in 1932

I'd like to point out that the bombs aizenns posted are of the "Special" designation and have only the bomb shell usually in common to the GPHE which means that the AP or SAP bombs names are not 100% correct currently 

 

 

 

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

Type 94 100 kg bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used 78% Picric Acid and 22% TNT

 

 

 

 

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TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 9

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

Type 92 250 kg bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Picric acid

 

 

 

 

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TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 12

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

 

Type 92 500 kg bomb has incorrect filler type, historically it used Picric acid

 

 

 

 

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TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive Ordnance 

Page 12

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Bs8PvHVc1TZMf5jo_gGMXj_1kHY42dK

 

 

 

 

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

Army Bombs

 

Type 94 50 kg - 50 kg GPHE bomb

• 19.6kg > 20kg
• TNT >  78% Picric Acid and 22% TNT

Type 94 100 kg - 100 kg GPHE bomb

• TNT > 78% Picric Acid and 22% TNT

Type 92 250 kg - 250 kg GPHE bomb 

• TNT >  Picric acid

Type 92 500 kg - 500 kg GPHE bomb

•  TNT > Picric acid

 

Navy Bombs

 

Type 97 №.6 - 60 kg ordinary bomb 

• TNT >Picric acid

№.25 Model 2 - 250 kg ordinary bomb

• TNT >Picric acid

Type 98 №.25 - 250 kg ordinary bomb

• TNT >Picric acid

№.50 Model 2 - 500 kg ordinary bomb

• TNT >Picric acid

Type 2 №.50 Model 1 - 500 kg semi armor piercing bomb

• Tnt >Type 98 which consist of 70% Trinitroanisol  and 30% Hexanitrodiphenylamine 
  H. N . D. for short 

№.80 Model 1 - 800 kg ordinary bomb

• Change Name to №.80 Model 1 Mod 2
• TNT > Picric acid

Type 99 №.80 Mk 5 - 800 kg armor-piercing bomb

• TNT > Type 91 explosive Trinitroanisol

[Pony51 6,545]

Excellent!  Thanks.

[Pony51 6,545]

 

@SasquatchFox360 @aizenns

 

This report took a lot of time to write up.

Finally done!