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The CW21 Chinese plane is OP


I have stated before the chinese CW21 2.0 aircraft far over performs what is listed and I notice behaves in a manner like RB physics do not apply to it. This aircraft doesnt just over perform in mobility and speed it also far over performs in survivability seemingly able to shrug off hit and hit with ease.

 

Similar things were said on the reddit page.

This really needs to be fixed because its down right ruining low tier air RB and i mean that very literally. if the enemy team has 2 its pretty much a done deal your team lost and these stats are accurate, 90%.

 

Here is the proof on Warhunder's own reddit.

 

Edited by WinstonIV
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10 hours ago, WinstonIV said:

I have stated before the chinese CW21 2.0 aircraft far over performs what is listed and I notice behaves in a manner like RB physics do not apply to it. This aircraft doesnt just over perform in mobility and speed it also far over performs in survivability seemingly able to shrug off hit and hit with ease.

 

RB physics do apply to it. I don't see how it is overperforming in maneuverability. It has a fairly low stall speed which equates to being very maneuverable. When I did a speed test with it, granted only on the deck, it was on the slow side for the BR. If you think it is overperforming find some documentation and report it. There is already, or at least was, a report about it having an ahistorical climb rate. In real life this model of the airplane didn't exceed 4,500ft/min whereas in game it breaks 5,000ft/min. In terms of survivability, it has a radial engine. All radial engines die quickly if they get shot at all. Most aircraft at that BR are also armed with rifle caliber weaponry. 7.7, 7.62, et cetera. Pretty much no matter the target they take a while to kill anything. I haven't flown anything with cannons against a CW-21 yet so I can't say how they take to being hit by them but I would be surprised if they can take a 20mm hit from a 151/20 mineshell.

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8 minutes ago, silentrain said:

In terms of survivability, it has a radial engine. All radial engines die quickly if they get shot at all.

Uhm no?

Inline engines give up their will to live as soon as a single radiator takes yellow damage.

 

Radial engines are air cooled and last a lot longer without even taking damage.

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34 minutes ago, NoodleCup31 said:

Uhm no?

Inline engines give up their will to live as soon as a single radiator takes yellow damage.

 

Radial engines are air cooled and last a lot longer without even taking damage.

 

Actually, yes. While what you say is historically true it isn't true in game.

 

While inline engines will die quickly once any coolant is gone a radial doesn't take any damage in game at all. I've had radial engines knocked out from a 7.7 round. I've knocked out radial engines on opposing planes with, at best, 2 rounds from 7.7 guns. Granted I've done the same to a Yak, killing its engine with 2 7.7 hits when flying the D4Y2. Either way, radials in game don't take damage in game and survive.

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The CW21 should probably be a slightly higher BR, maybe 2.3 or even 2.7. It's pretty good at 2.0, but it is vulnerable to faster aircraft.

 

Gaijin seem to balance way too much based on armament. That's why having a couple of cannons pushes aircraft like the IAR 81 and M.B 152C1 to 2.7 and 2.3, despite them being both slower and less manoeuvrable than the CW21.

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On 25/02/2020 at 14:29, silentrain said:

RB physics do apply to it. I don't see how it is overperforming in maneuverability. It has a fairly low stall speed which equates to being very maneuverable

 

So first don`t claim you are right by default. And second RB physics do apply is a very vauge explanation. RB physics apply to every plane to some degree, the question is if they apply properly and how much  they apply more or less.

WarThunder is at the end of the day a rudimentary and simplified simulation of avionics. It is also a videogame in the best sense. 

 

On 25/02/2020 at 14:29, silentrain said:

If you think it is overperforming find some documentation and report it.

 

 

And would all of you "document-guys" stop pretending its the real thing happening and flying in WarThunder. If the community has the suspicion or assumption something is off we don`t need documents to proof it.

You don`t need real existing documents to say and proof the artificial simulated thing is wrong or not detailed enough, or "simulated" correctly.

 

Maybe it is just a overbuffed airplane in a videogame? 

 

And by the way low stall speed has little to do with the overall maneuverability of an aircraft. 

 

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On 29/02/2020 at 11:10, Nahguav said:

The CW21 should probably be a slightly higher BR, maybe 2.3 or even 2.7. It's pretty good at 2.0, but it is vulnerable to faster aircraft.

 

Gaijin seem to balance way too much based on armament. That's why having a couple of cannons pushes aircraft like the IAR 81 and M.B 152C1 to 2.7 and 2.3, despite them being both slower and less manoeuvrable than the CW21.

 

Me 262 7.0 oof

 

Me 410s likely have BRs based on weapons they could mount IRL but have never received in game

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Remember how J22 gets its BR raised for having a decent machineguns but this thing doesnt lose energy in a loop and having  50 cal mid war belt is not warranted BR raise.

Even P-36G doesnt have a mid war belt and its being placed on 2.3 with worse performance compared to CW-21

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7 hours ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

So first don`t claim you are right by default.

 

I never did. Also, while War Thunder is a game it does try to make its vehicles perform as realistically as possible.

 

7 hours ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

And would all of you "document-guys" stop pretending its the real thing happening and flying in WarThunder. If the community has the suspicion or assumption something is off we don`t need documents to proof it.

You don`t need real existing documents to say and proof the artificial simulated thing is wrong or not detailed enough, or "simulated" correctly.

 

Maybe it is just a overbuffed airplane in a videogame?

 

We need documents for Gaijin to fix it via a bug report. That is the point. Gaijin will not change something in game unless we the players provide documentation showing that it isn't performing accurately. If we get Gaijin to fix the inaccurate performance of the aircraft to be more accurate it would be less of an 'overbuffed airplane' problem.

 

7 hours ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

And by the way low stall speed has little to do with the overall maneuverability of an aircraft.

 

It has everything to do with it. It would be worth your time to learn some of the basics of flight science.

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  • 2 weeks later...

198534811_wtcw21sobalanced.thumb.jpg.f2e

 

I too wonder what keeps Gaijin from doing anything right with the CW-21.

Forgot the name of the guy I checked out these stats on but I found him in a T1 RB while I was spading Swedish planes. Of course he dominated.

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The CW-21 in my honest opinion isn't really that OP. It's heavily undertiered. Sure it can climb, and turn but the speed isn't that great. It's just Gaijin doesn't want to uptier it or something  because of missing "early fighters"

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its OP for its tier for sure but up-tiering would present an issue with it being too slow. In my own games i see it handle, turn and pull maneuvers that should easily knock out a pilot for instance with apparently zero effect. It can also still ram planes with its wings killing the plan it ran into while remaining undamaged while taking direct hits with 20mm for zero damage. Its as if the entire plane isnt modeled correctly for damage models and only small parts of the plane are actually damageable.

they cant uptier it but they can actually apply RB physics and bring its realistic performance values into the game. i highly doubt these things performed this good considering we gave them obsolete equipment and our companies produced obsolete junk.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1216

 

there is a link for realistic performance description and its actual life span in military service.

In REALITY... this place Gaijin despises apparently, the aircraft was a piece of junk that failed miserably.

So much for REALISTIC BATTLE mode being anywhere near realistic lol.

 

No i think this plane handles really well and over-performs because of monetary reasons rather than any rational game balance reason along with this following Gaijins complete disregard for historical realism and creating paper equipment for sale and use along with some cultural historical revisionism occurring.

 

 

Edited by WinstonIV

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So it's not only me with that impression, I only play combined battles these days but yeah the CW-21 sure seems iffy when I run into it. Happened more than once that I was like 1000m above it at a decent speed only to suddenly find it on my tail unable to shake it off despite flying planes 1 BR higher, not to mention it seems to be nearly as maneuverable as japanese fighters. It seems either undertiered or having an off FM.

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The CW-21 (BR 2.0) is better than the A6M2 Zero (BR 3.3) in my opinion.

 

The CW-21 is generally faster than the A6M2:

At sea level (around 200 meters altitude) the CW-21 can go 468km/h while the A6M2 can go 436km/h.

At around 3800m altitude the top speed is equalized. The A6M2 will be unnoticable faster at higher altitudes.

 

The CW-21 out-accelerates and outclimbs the A6M2:
Including take-off the CW-21 needs around 139 seconds to reach 3000m altitude while the A6M2 needs 169 seconds. (For comparison the Bf 109 G-2 needs 143 seconds) (All tested on the same map)

 

The CW-21 outguns the A6M2:
Both have two 7mm's as secondaries in the nose. They seem to perform mostly equally.
But the real deal breaker are the late 12.7mm M2's (The one with the good ammo choices) compared to the 20mm Type 99 Model 1's.
The M2's have 200rpg while the Type 99 Model 1's have 60rpg.
The M2's have nearly 50% higher rate of fire compared to the Type 99 Model 1's.
The M2's have around 400m/s higher muzzle velocity.
The M2's are nose mounted while the Type 99 Model 1's are wing mounted.
(To those who feel that the japanese 20mm's are actually good: The A6M2 has the Type 99 Model 1 and not Type 99 Model 2 cannons. The Model 2's are vastly improved version which most of the japanese naval aircraft use)

 

Maneuverability wise they seem somewhat equal:
The CW-21 outrolls the A6M2 with ease. The A6M2 turn slightly better at 350km/h and higher while the CW-21 seems to slightly outturn the A6M2 at around 300-200km/h.The CW-21 flaps break easier.

 

 

My opinion: If the A6M2 can sit at 3.3 so can the CW-21.

 

Edited by Krausbart
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On 29/02/2020 at 12:10, Nahguav said:

The CW21 should probably be a slightly higher BR, maybe 2.3 or even 2.7. It's pretty good at 2.0, but it is vulnerable to faster aircraft.

Not enough I've had a 1v1 with one in a D4Y3 its one of Japans fastest best climbing aircraft at 3.0 and even with that could capabilities he climb with me it is definitely broken 

16 minutes ago, Krausbart said:

The CW-21 (BR 2.0) is better than the A6M2 Zero (BR 3.3) in my opinion.

 

The CW-21 is generally faster than the A6M2:

At sea level (around 200 meters altitude) the CW-21 can go 468km/h while the A6M2 can go 436km/h.

At around 3800m altitude the top speed is equalized. The A6M2 will be unnoticable faster at higher altitudes.

 

The CW-21 out-accelerates and outclimbs the A6M2:
Including take-off the CW-21 needs around 139 seconds to reach 3000m altitude while the A6M2 needs 169 seconds. (For comparison the Bf 109 G-2 needs 143 seconds) (All tested on the same map)

 

The CW-21 outguns the A6M2:
Both have two 7mm's as secondaries in the nose. They seem to perform mostly equally.
But the real deal breaker are the late 12.7mm M2's (The one with the good ammo choices) compared to the 20mm Type 99 Model 1's.
The M2's have 200rpg while the Type 99 Model 1's have 60rpg.
The M2's have nearly 50% higher rate of fire compared to the Type 99 Model 1's.
The M2's have around 400m/s higher muzzle velocity.
The M2's are nose mounted while the Type 99 Model 1's are wing mounted.
(To those who feel that the japanese 20mm's are actually good: The A6M2 has the Type 99 Model 1 and not Type 99 Model 2 cannons. The Model 2's are vastly improved version which most of the japanese naval aircraft use)

 

Maneuverability wise they seem somewhat equal:
The CW-21 outrolls the A6M2 with ease. The A6M2 turn slightly better at 350km/h and higher while the CW-21 seems to slightly outturn the A6M2 at around 300-200km/h.The CW-21 flaps break easier.

 

 

My opinion: If the A6M2 can sit at 3.3 so can the CW-21.

 

Even at this br it's still ridiculous I have faced them at 5.3 and they're capable of fighting at that BR as well with how that aircraft performs it seems likely that the flight data used for it must of been of an aircraft without machine guns 

Edited by SasquatchFox360

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They are only capable of fighting at 5.3 if the opposing players are willing to turn fight them. Otherwise they aren't a serious threat because they are so incredibly slow.

 

That said the CW-21 is over performing notably by many metrics. The in game CW-21 is outperforming the best climb time of the stripped down prototype by nearly 30 seconds to 5km. It is also outpacing that same prototype by at least 10mph at 5km. The armed CW-21's would not have had the same top speed or climb rate as this stripped down prototype for obvious reasons relating to the addition of the equipment. To go along with those reasons the production CW-21s did not use the same engine as the prototype. They used a slightly less powerful engine that was more readily available.

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7 hours ago, silentrain said:

Otherwise they aren't a serious threat because they are so incredibly slow.

Here are some aircraft which aren't a threat because they are incrediblly slow:

 

- Re.2005 serie 0 (BR 6.0) going 515km/h at 200 meters

- G.55 serie I (BR 4.7) going 513km/h at 200 meters

- Ki-43-III otsu (BR 4.0) going 505km/h at 200 meters

- A6M5 otsu (BR 4.7) going 465km/h at 200 meters

 

But somehow these are still a threat in my eyes. It's like being a great dogfighter and being excellent at gaining energy is somehow as dangerous as being fast in the right hands.

 

 

Besides the CW-21 is on of the fastest aircraft at 2.0 and below (excluding the redicilous He 100 of course). For example:

 

(Aircraft - Speed at 200 meters)

 

CW-21 (2.0) - 468km/h

He 112 B-0 (2.0) - 462km/h

P-36G (2.3) - 428km/h

Re.2000 (2.0) - 424km/h

Hurricane Mk.IIb (2.0) - 417km/h

G.50 serie 2 (1.7) - 394km/h

 

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18 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

I didn't I dived away and still got taken out due to it keeping up with a N1K2

 

Don't wait for them to be right on top of you before you dive.

 

11 hours ago, Krausbart said:

Here are some aircraft which aren't a threat because they are incrediblly slow:

 

- Re.2005 serie 0 (BR 6.0) going 515km/h at 200 meters

- G.55 serie I (BR 4.7) going 513km/h at 200 meters

- Ki-43-III otsu (BR 4.0) going 505km/h at 200 meters

- A6M5 otsu (BR 4.7) going 465km/h at 200 meters

 

But somehow these are still a threat in my eyes. It's like being a great dogfighter and being excellent at gaining energy is somehow as dangerous as being fast in the right hands.

 

Those are all only a threat if you get slow with them around. If you keep your speed up and use BnZ and hit and run tactics when they are in a group they will never touch you unless you go head on or take a bad angle on a poor target choice. Knowing how to use speed takes knowledge, intelligence and patience. Knowing how to out turn something in one of those planes takes none of those things. It just takes an idiot to be in the other plane that is willing to let you get close enough that they can't then use their speed advantage to get away. There is a reason those planes are referred to as idiot taxes in the more skilled part of the player base.

 

11 hours ago, Krausbart said:

Besides the CW-21 is on of the fastest aircraft at 2.0 and below (excluding the redicilous He 100 of course). For example:

 

I never said that it wasn't a problem at its current BR. It very much is. That said, I can get the P-36G to go over 440 sustained on the deck at Pearl Harbor for example. None of those planes that you listed are even considered fast planes either.

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18 hours ago, silentrain said:

I never said that it wasn't a problem at its current BR. It very much is. That said, I can get the P-36G to go over 440 sustained on the deck at Pearl Harbor for example. None of those planes that you listed are even considered fast planes either.

Sorry, should have mentioned that I was testing them with IAS and not TAS. And all the aircraft I mentioned not being very fast was the point to be honest. The CW-21 being able to outturn, outclimb and outspeed them.

 

18 hours ago, silentrain said:

Those are all only a threat if you get slow with them around. If you keep your speed up and use BnZ and hit and run tactics when they are in a group they will never touch you unless you go head on or take a bad angle on a poor target choice. Knowing how to use speed takes knowledge, intelligence and patience. Knowing how to out turn something in one of those planes takes none of those things. It just takes an idiot to be in the other plane that is willing to let you get close enough that they can't then use their speed advantage to get away. There is a reason those planes are referred to as idiot taxes in the more skilled part of the player base.

You need to consider that not everyone is as amazing as you. Ending up with low energy happens to everyone sometimes and not being able to defend yourself in such a situation is certainly a disadvantage.

Being as good with aircraft which only have higher top speeds, as with aircraft which are great dogfighters and amazing climbers is quite difficult in my opinion considering the meta. If you can do it, fair enough.

Edited by Krausbart
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7 hours ago, Krausbart said:

Sorry, should have mentioned that I was testing them with IAS and not TAS. And all the aircraft I mentioned not being very fast was the point to be honest. The CW-21 being able to outturn, outclimb and outspeed them.

 

I use IAS too. So close to the ground the difference is going to be negligible.

 

Those are also some of the slower planes of the BR so it isn't an honest and genuine representation of the CW-21 against everything at the BR. Presenting a disingenuous representation of what is going on isn't actually that helpful. As I said, it is under BRed for what it is and over performing relative to its historical counterpart.

 

7 hours ago, Krausbart said:

You need to consider that not everyone is as amazing as you. Ending up with low energy happens to everyone sometimes and not being able to defend yourself in such a situation is certainly a disadvantage.

 

I'm not amazing though. I done care enough to put in the effort to be amazing.

 

Getting a plane that relies on speed slow so a slow plane can punch your ticket means that you really screwed up big somewhere. It could be something as bad as you did something incredibly stupid or something as relatively small as you lost situational awareness. The key is having the self awareness to know and admit that you messed up rather than making excuses for being shot down and then trying to learn from them.

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23 hours ago, silentrain said:

Those are also some of the slower planes of the BR so it isn't an honest and genuine representation of the CW-21 against everything at the BR. Presenting a disingenuous representation of what is going on isn't actually that helpful.

I don't think I'm presenting a disingenuous representation. As I said, at 2.0 and below the CW-21 is one of the fastests aircraft at low altitude.

 

2.0 and lower fighters which are slower:

- All biplanes of course

- All P-26's

- All P-36's

- F2A-1

- Bf 109 A

- Bf 109 B-1

- All He 112's

- All G.50's

- All C.200's

- Re.2000

- All I-16's

- All Hurricane's

- A5M4

- Ki-27

- Ki-43-I

- Ki-43-II (faster at higher altitudes)

- D.371

- D.500

- D.501

- C.R.714

- All H-75's (faster at higher altitudes)

- M.S.405C1

- M.S.406C1

- M.S.410

 

 

2.0 and lower fighters which are faster:

- He 100

- MiG-3-15

- All LaGG-3's

 

 

If we would include 2.3 and higher there would be more and more aircrafts which are faster. Like the Yak-1 for example. But considering the accelaration, climb rate, turn rate and armament The CW-21 is still better than most of them in my opinion.

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