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Lower/mid tier match making post 1.95 patch


4 hours ago, KH_Alan said:

Its exactly the same when you claim that Allies play objectives more than other nations at those BRs.

 

Eh, no. Saying what I have is simply stating facts from something that's observable in game.

 

Others have independently corroborated what I've said, confirming it.

 

2 hours ago, GeneralArmchair said:

"Play the objectives" and "tiger syndrome" are just two sides of the same "germans are just inexplicably worse than the rest of the playerbase" fallacy.   If the germans play aggressively and get torn to shreds by dug in opponents and tanks better suited to brawling, then they have tiger syndrome and thought that they were invincible because they watched too much history channel.   If germans play cautiously and loose too much ticket bleed due to not securing the points fast enough, then they don't play the objectives.   Just move the goalposts depending on whichever fallacy suits you best at any given point in time.

 

Nope. There is no fallacy in pointing out bad plays, as every team must maintain a balance of their forces and their forces' positions to win a match. Unfortunately, many German players feel this does not apply to them and so they neglect to account for this balancing...and so they lose.

 

The goalposts are not being moved, German players are just making more and more excuses to explain away their failures.

 

2 hours ago, GeneralArmchair said:

And ofcourse, if they happen to win then it's because their panzer IVs and panthers are undertiered.

 

Um, no. People do not say the Panzer IVs and Pathers are undertiered because they happen to win. The actuality is that they say the Panzer IVs are undertiered because objectively superior to their peers, particularly in terms of firepower, and the Panther A is better than its peers at 5.7 because it is a 6.0 worthy vehicle.

 

Once again this is just another case of this imagined German persecution people pout over--it's not real and I can attest to that as a German player myself.

 

2 hours ago, Flak_Dancer said:

Is a long list of senseless attack to all people play Germany, just another example of this nosense :

psnqK18.png

:facepalm:

 

That quote is fact, not nonsense. Look at the statistics:

 

ieBtBdy.png

 

As you can see, the statistics confirm what I said.

 

People can see that I'm just stating facts--they can tell that I'm only being real in saying this. It's disregard for the facts and reality like this that go to show why so many people are seeing through the German victimhood claims these days--it's a hoax. (I can personally testify to that as a German player myself too).

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5 hours ago, warrior412 said:

Eh, no. Saying what I have is simply stating facts from something that's observable in game.

 

Others have independently corroborated what I've said, confirming it.

Eh no because nor your opinion or other personal observations are not facts no matter how many confirmed it unless you can prove it. Observable in the game is meaningless and subjective in regards to numbers which are only fact.

 

So its still the same if one explanation goes for Jumbos the same goes for PzIVs.

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There isn't and never has been anything different about the german playerbase.   They are often the exact same players as the other nations.   To continue such a fundamentally flawed assessment is lunacy, insulting to everyone in the discussion, and counterproductive to healthy discussion about the game's balance concerns.

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1 hour ago, KH_Alan said:

So its still the same if one explanation goes for Jumbos the same goes for PzIVs.

 

Two different vehicles means two different environments around these two vehicles--they aren't the same and so they face effectively different fights. From that, it's easy to understand they can (and do) face different conditions and so it'd be illogical to say one explanation fit two different vehicles.

 

26 minutes ago, GeneralArmchair said:

There isn't and never has been anything different about the german playerbase.   They are often the exact same players as the other nations.   To continue such a fundamentally flawed assessment is lunacy, insulting to everyone in the discussion, and counterproductive to healthy discussion about the game's balance concerns.

 

The unwillingness of people to even accept the slightest criticism of anything German is why having a healthy discussion about game balance concerns has proven so difficult--and I'm a German player saying that. (Just look above--facts about cannons that people can see for themselves were denied. :facepalm:)

Edited by warrior412
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1 hour ago, warrior412 said:

Two different vehicles means two different environments around these two vehicles--they aren't the same and so they face effectively different fights. From that, it's easy to understand they can (and do) face different conditions and so it'd be illogical to say one explanation fit two different vehicles.

Yes it does but since you (or anyone else but maybe Gaijin) don't have any provable info how different enviroment really is it's completely false and ilogical to have two different explanations for same numbers. Especially since everyones personal observation has the same value. So if there is only one different observation your whole theory is nullified since neither you or that person can prove it's stance. 

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9 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

No

 

Just pointing out that its not a big deal if the US has no real lineup at a certain BR for some time.

 

But they are two different issues, I just pointed that out for you.

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23 hours ago, warrior412 said:

It’s embarrassing that you try to use different situations like this to falsely claim things like this.

Well at least now you know how it feels arguing with someone like you..

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1 hour ago, aBrumz_suFFers said:

Well at least now you know how it feels arguing with someone like you..

 

Lmao no, I don’t bother with falsehoods—I lay out the facts.

 

People can see the facts I’ve posted and check them for themselves. They can see I’m just an honest guy who tells it like it is.

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8 minutes ago, warrior412 said:

Lmao no, I don’t bother with falsehoods—I lay out the facts.

No, you are definately not. You are laying out your opinion and personal observation which is not a fact and it will never be unless you can prove it.

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14 hours ago, warrior412 said:

I'm a German player saying that.

Just because you sealclub Aces at 4,0 does not make you German player.

 

20 hours ago, warrior412 said:

As you can see, the statistics confirm what I said.

Those are not even current penetrations. Also you forget that BR-365A is mostly used because of slope modifiers that make is better then stat card might suggest.

 

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9 minutes ago, LahvanCz said:

Just because you sealclub Aces at 4,0 does not make you German player.

 

Playing Germany more than any other nation does indeed make me a German player. I am a German player, whether you like it or not.

 

It’s sad that people are so desperate to maintain the German victimhood charade that they attack people for not buying into it.

 

11 minutes ago, LahvanCz said:

Those are not even current penetrations. Also you forget that BR-365A is mostly used because of slope modifiers that make is better then stat card might suggest.

 

Those screenshots were from the same time as the quote; whether they’re still current or not makes no difference (I believe they are anyway).

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21 hours ago, warrior412 said:

 

It’s sad that people are so desperate to maintain the German victimhood charade that they attack people for not buying into it.

I played Germany a lot, I also play other nations around 5,7 (mostly US, now Chinese) so I know how it is to play them. Playing US was much easier and playing Chinese still is fine and yet another quote from you: My results prove it. So I dont buy your reasoning, but I am far from attacking you.

 

If I indeed wished to attack you, I would write something that attacking you is below my stature as honest man does not stain his honor by meddling with liars.

 

You see the difference? ;) But of course I would not write such thing as it would be easier to just ignore your faulty arguments.

Edited by LahvanCz
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58 minutes ago, GeneralArmchair said:

Haha, warrior's "facts" are like the Party's facts in 1984.   War is peace.   Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.

 

Spoiler

image.png

 

 

Yes indeed, there's certainly something Orwellian about making relative comparisons between vehicles. Surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre. :016:

 

Amusingly enough, you are the one resorting to Orwellian tactics with that edited quote. Here's the actual quote, context and all:

 

On 10/02/2020 at 04:05, warrior412 said:

When used at 5.X/6.X, the Panzer IV G is very much like German's M18.

 

When you look at the Panzer IV G's performance and the fact that it's at 4.0 (1.7 BR below the M18), you see that the Panzer IV G has a great package deal of capability. The M18 is generally comparable to it, but is burdened with a higher BR, lower survivability and worse gun stability for a few MPH more in return. Denying the similarity between these two is just denying the obvious.

 

It's sad that you're so dismissive of the Panzer IVs' ability to help, but if you don't want to use it as a counter-flanker, that's fine. If you want the enemy to flank and defeat your team, that's your business--just own up to it when it happens.

 

As anyone can see, what I said was a rather simple and understandable comparison between two vehicles--nothing extraordinary by any means. I took two vehicles with general similarities and compared them--wow!

 

To be honest, I feel kind of bad for you. All you've really done here is destroyed your own credibility--no one will be able to trust what you say if these fake claims are the sort of things you stand by. In the friendliest way I can, I recommend for your sake that you recant your obviously false claim--save what you can in the eyes of your peers while you still can.

Edited by warrior412
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9 hours ago, warrior412 said:

 

Yes indeed, there's certainly something Orwellian about making relative comparisons between vehicles. Surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre. :016:

 

Amusingly enough, you are the one resorting to Orwellian tactics with that edited quote. Here's the actual quote, context and all:

 

 

As anyone can see, what I said was a rather simple and understandable comparison between two vehicles--nothing extraordinary by any means. I took two vehicles with general similarities and compared them--wow!

 

To be honest, I feel kind of bad for you. All you've really done here is destroyed your own credibility--no one will be able to trust what you say if these fake claims are the sort of things you stand by. In the friendliest way I can, I recommend for your sake that you recant your obviously false claim--save what you can in the eyes of your peers while you still can.

 

Even with context your comparison is laughable.

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13 hours ago, Kamov said:

Even with context your comparison is laughable.

 

Not really. The Panzer IV G is much more similar to the M18 than some people care to admit, especially when used at 5.X-6.X.

 

Edit: lmao at all the "confused" ratings--some people really don't like to see anything positive said about Germany. The forum's really been overrun by the "German, therefore inferior" crowd.

Edited by warrior412
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To try to get back on topic, why has the US M4a1 76 been moved up to 5.0 when every other nations M4 is still 4.7? The Brit firefly, the French SA50 and the Italian Tipo are almost the exact same tank performance wise.

 

How can they say with a straight face an M4a3 is equal in performance to a centurion MK1 and a Panther A?

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2 hours ago, waldopb said:

To try to get back on topic, why has the US M4a1 76 been moved up to 5.0 when every other nations M4 is still 4.7? The Brit firefly, the French SA50 and the Italian Tipo are almost the exact same tank performance wise.

 

How can they say with a straight face an M4a3 is equal in performance to a centurion MK1 and a Panther A?

US M4A1 76 has stabilizer while other nation M4s don't. Does that warrant for 0.3 BR raise probably not. Gaijin is using some kind of algorythm (none really knows what parameters they watch) for BR/RC raise. After vehicle triggers that algorythm threshold it probably sends some alert to Gaijin that vehicle might need adjustment. For example Lorraine 40t has been affected twice by that algorythm and raised in BR and in RC because players which were using it were too effective with it.

Edited by KH_Alan
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On 18/02/2020 at 21:04, warrior412 said:

I am a German player, whether you like it or not.

Yea.

But not above 6.3.

 

And sealclubbing at 4.0 doesn't give you more experience.

 

The 50 battles in the Tiger II P are not enough to judge about 6.7 getting uptiered

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3 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

Yea.

But not above 6.3.

 

I’ve played Germans up through to 6.7 and am working with them currently, meaning I’ve seen them through to 7.7.

 

3 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

And sealclubbing at 4.0 doesn't give you more experience.

 

Playing =/= sealclubbing and more experience is more experience.

 

3 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

The 50 battles in the Tiger II P are not enough to judge about 6.7 getting uptiered

 

50 battles is a great deal; you can see plenty of MM in that time.

 

A lot of people judge based on far less.

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  • 1 year later...
On 20/02/2020 at 19:00, warrior412 said:

 

Not really. The Panzer IV G is much more similar to the M18 than some people care to admit, especially when used at 5.X-6.X.

 

Edit: lmao at all the "confused" ratings--some people really don't like to see anything positive said about Germany. The forum's really been overrun by the "German, therefore inferior" crowd.

 

I don't understand how anyone could make this point with a straight face. Both tanks have similar guns, and both tanks have no armour in an uptier (The Panzer IV has *some* armour in a downtier). Those are the only two similarities I can make with any honesty.

 

The M18, however, suits the trade-armour-for-mobility meta perfectly. Ground RB is all about flanking, positioning, and capturing. Its enormous mobility advantage makes it in no way comparable to the Panzer IV in ways that are most relevant to the meta. It even has a 50 cal to deal with other unarmoured meta-relevant tanks. It makes a good backup all the way up to Rank 6 - even higher if you just want to cap.

 

I feel like I'm losing IQ points just explaining this.

Edited by ReachForTheSky
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24 minutes ago, ReachForTheSky said:

I don't understand how anyone could make this point with a straight face. Both tanks have similar guns, and both tanks have no armour in an uptier


You say you don’t understand it...but you just hit upon two of the bases of the comment—the cannons and armor. Those qualities are comparable.

 

24 minutes ago, ReachForTheSky said:

The M18, however, suits the trade-armour-for-mobility meta perfectly. Ground RB is all about flanking, positioning, and capturing. Its enormous mobility advantage makes it in no way comparable to the Panzer IV in ways that are most relevant to the meta.

 

The M18 is alright, but you're overestimating it by a bit.
 

The M18 has endured multiple nerfs over the years which have hampered its engine power (thus speed) and has had changes to its gunsight which have made it very lackluster. The latter has hobbled it’s ability to accurately shoot people from the flanks (which is important for a 76mm having to deal with 6.7+ opposition).

 

When you compare their speeds, for all the hype the M18 gets the Panzer IV G isn’t far behind and its spared many vices (hull break, open top, MM, etc.)

 

—————

 

A few people people have been thrown off by the comparison because it’s so advanced (few people consider relativism between vehicles like this) and defied their expectations—that’s all.

 

As it stands nowadays, with Italian and Chinese M18s running about and even the Americans often accompanying them, German teams don’t need M18 equivalents—they have M18s.

Edited by warrior412
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2 hours ago, warrior412 said:

The M18 has endured multiple nerfs over the years which have hampered its engine power (thus speed) and has had changes to its gunsight which have made it very lackluster. The latter has hobbled it’s ability to accurately shoot people from the flanks (which is important for a 76mm having to deal with 6.7+ opposition).

 

It's not as fast as it once was. It still has almost double the Pz IV G's hp/ton ratio though (22.6 vs 12.7) and a much higher top speed. Also, powerful optics are not necessary on most of War Thunder's tight CQC maps. It hurts its sniping ability, but if you're far away in the Hellcat, you're not playing it to its strengths. It also has the ability to induce overpens far more reliably than the Panzer IV - which, with armour no thinner than 30mm, can't really be overpenned by anything.

 

Quote

As it stands nowadays, with Italian and Chinese M18s running about and even the Americans often accompanying them, German teams don’t need M18 equivalents—they have M18s.

 

That may be, but that's moving the goal posts. You've argued previously in this thread against the merits of relying on the composition of a team when comparing nations, and I'd stand by that.

 

Those two similarities that we agree the two tanks have basically mean they're on equal footing when camping your own spawn, but once you stray beyond it they're two very different machines.

Edited by ReachForTheSky
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5 minutes ago, ReachForTheSky said:

It's not as fast as it once was. It still has almost double the Pz IV G's hp/ton ratio though (22.6 vs 12.7) and a much higher top speed. Also, powerful optics are not necessary on most of War Thunder's tight CQC maps. It hurts its sniping ability, but if you're far away in the Hellcat, you're not playing it to its strengths. It also has the ability to induce overpens far more reliably than the Panzer IV - which, with armour no thinner than 30mm, can't really be overpenned by anything.

 

On WT's maps, the M18's slightly higher speed doesn't really get to amount to much because the distances are so limited--they just mean a few moments difference, rather than anything more.

 

As for the optics and fighting at distance, I've played US 5.X Americans and you get medium to long range maps at least as much as the cramped ones--you don't have much choice but to try your hand at taking shots from a distance. I remember a few days back I had to target a Tiger II from the trees on European Province because trying to close in would have meant crossing an open field...which would have been even more pleasant.

 

As overpenetration goes...ever since hull break, I haven't seen that mean much to the M18. It explodes into confetti when it comes under fire pretty readily.

 

9 minutes ago, ReachForTheSky said:

That may be, but that's moving the goal posts. You've argued previously in this thread against the merits of relying on the composition of a team when comparing nations, and I'd stand by that.

 

In previous times, those other M18s (the Italians' certainly) weren't around. I mention them here and now because nowadays Germany has the supplements it needs, though it also has an answer to the M18 in the Sd.Kfz.234/4.

 

 

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On 04/03/2021 at 00:30, warrior412 said:

 

On WT's maps, the M18's slightly higher speed doesn't really get to amount to much because the distances are so limited--they just mean a few moments difference, rather than anything more.

 

You make some good points, but you have a habit of being quite slippery. First the team composition, now: you go from disputing the idea that the M18 and Pz IV have any meaningful difference in mobility to saying that the difference in speed, whatever it may be, doesn't really matter.

 

I'd argue that the nearly double hp/ton advantage the M18 has gives it a big advantage every time it moves - whether that be halfway across the map or from one block of buildings to another. Being in the enemy's line of sight for an extra half a second can make all the difference.

 

And, again, I'd strongly dispute that the M18's mobility advantage is 'slightly' higher. There is a substantial difference. If you play a static gameplay style, that difference may well be slight, but that's not how the M18 should be played, nor does it win games.

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