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Is war thunder pay to win?


Well, I've paid a fair bit of money on the game the past year+ I've been playing and I just keep getting worse and worse.  So for me, it's been pay to lose.  :)

 

I seriously hate playing this because I get slaughtered all the time.  I only play because I love tanks and because of the money I've spent.  It's a miserable ****ing existence.

Edited by *Tango_2_3

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2 hours ago, *Tango_2_3 said:

Well, I've paid a fair bit of money on the game the past year+ I've been playing and I just keep getting worse and worse.  So for me, it's been pay to lose.  :)

 

I seriously hate playing this because I get slaughtered all the time.  I only play because I love tanks and because of the money I've spent.  It's a miserable ****ing existence.

Bro git gud. You simply have to there is no alternative. Experience will teach you but slowly and painfully. Watch youtube, there are plenty of pretty useful guides, newbie friendly and more comprehensive ones.
I find map guides VERY useful. There are several by european canadian, but other people too. I would never know how to play B point in Berlin nor how to rush C point in korea if not map guides.
Play passively, following your teammates and supporting them. When you see clanmates playing together, they are usually good players, follow them around. 

Play patiently. For example, if game has just one cap point, find high traffic road and camp it. Customers will come. 
Watch replays. Someone got 15 kills? Watch replays and find out what he did. next time you try his tactic.
In settings, turn engine sound up, your engine sound down. Use minimap extensively. Watch your teammates, what they do, where they aim and when they die. 

gl


 

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8 hours ago, *Tango_2_3 said:

Well, I've paid a fair bit of money on the game the past year+ I've been playing and I just keep getting worse and worse.  So for me, it's been pay to lose.  :)

 

I seriously hate playing this because I get slaughtered all the time.  I only play because I love tanks and because of the money I've spent.  It's a miserable ****ing existence.

 

I'd suggest finding a squadron of like minded people.

Having a squadron changes the game completely!

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Air BR above 5.0 is 100% pay to win. Don't let people who buy 288s or prem spits or zeros convince you otherwise. It's huge P2W. Paying doesn't guarantee your team a win, but it guarantees you to have a strict 1v1 advantage in many more cases. Just look at the win rates of the popular premium planes above 5.0 vs their non p2w counterparts. They are all at least 60%.

Edited by getBrutal
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13 minutes ago, getBrutal said:

Just look at the win rates of the popular premium planes above 5.0 vs their non p2w counterparts

 

That alone might not be enough information.

For example, I have an event premium vehicle which is a slightly worse version of a main tier vehicle (stat-wise), yet I have better winrate with it. Why? Because I start with the premium one due to the higher earning it provides. If I die, then I respawn with the other one. This means that in battles which are going well, I survive to the end, so I don't have to spawn the non-premium one. This means that if I have a vehicle which I only spawn when the battle is going badly, it will have a much worse winrate despite being just as good.

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1 hour ago, Praevasc said:

If I die, then I respawn with the other one.


I'm talking about RB. You talking about SB? If not, idk about higher tiers in AB. From what I know it's just spawn camping 99% of the time, usually by two guys in a clan in 109s or something lol. I haven't done AB higher up.|

You'll see. The amount of "expensive" premium planes at higher BR air RB is very discouraging. There's no chance Gaijin will ever balance this **** with the amount of people that are paying for these planes. To an extent, it's tolerable. It's not great and it's a shame they have to do this for money. It just sucks when it's in your mind. If you don't get stomped by a premium for a few games you start to forget it.

EDIT: I realized you might be talking tanks as well. I'm also referring to only Air. Air RB higher up is p2w.

Edited by getBrutal
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I've been playing for over 7 years and I can say with absolute certainty that this game is P2W.  More so now than ever before.  It is a shame that Gaijin's business model has shifted in this path because balance has become a major issue.  And let's be crystal clear that P2W isn't just top-tier, there are many low-to-mid tier premium vehicles that have lower battle ratings than they should.  This drives sales ... why would anyone spend a lot of money on something that just earns them faster RP (premium account time would be cheaper anyway).

 

A large percentage of players using these vehicles aren't those trying to unlock vehicles ... they are veteran players who recognize how powerful these vehicles and use them for their advantage of the battlefield.

 

This P2W system is exacerbated by the "Marketplace".  Events give rewards for powerful vehicles and aircraft, that can then be sold to other players.  This is P2W in its purest form since the vast majority of event vehicles are superior to most things found in the tech trees that can be earned.

Edited by Caelib
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14 hours ago, Caelib said:

this game is P2W.  More so now than ever before

 

Nah, being able to reach higher tiers faster if you pay actually hurts the chances of winning, because those who do it don't have that many hours of accumulated experience.

 

14 hours ago, Caelib said:

there are many low-to-mid tier premium vehicles that have lower battle ratings than they should

 

I'm interested in what kind of statistics you gathered. I've never seen a premium vehicle which is a technically same variant of a main tree vehicle but sitting at a lower BR. Many premium vehicles are just reskinned versions of main tree vehicles, with little to no difference.

Maybe there are a few exceptions in naval, where a premium version of a destroyer has the exact same BR and the exact same stats, but has one or two AA extra mounts more. But that still isn't something which will win a battle for you.

 

The BR are designed so that any vehicle can kill any other vehicle of the same BR. Skill, luck, teamplay and position matter much more than bare stats. By utilizing the advantages of your vehicle and compensating for your disadvantages by good positioning, you can kill vehicles even 1-2 BR higher. Especially in RB when the enemy can be more easily caught unaware.

 

Other games which feature "health points" for vehicles are much worse regarding P2W, because then they just whittle down each other's HP bar and if the premium vehicle's HP bar is higher they have more chances.

 

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14 hours ago, Caelib said:

  And let's be crystal clear that P2W isn't just top-tier, there are many low-to-mid tier premium vehicles that have lower battle ratings than they should. 

Can you provide examples? I play mostly tanks up to BR6...only one i recall is kv220...and even that i am not sure i could have studied better...

 

Much more issues vs tree vehicles like jumbo, jpziv, other kvs, etc...

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On 18/04/2020 at 07:39, *GhostSoph said:

Can you provide examples? I play mostly tanks up to BR6...only one i recall is kv220...and even that i am not sure i could have studied better...

 

Much more issues vs tree vehicles like jumbo, jpziv, other kvs, etc...

 

Honestly, you don't have to look very far to find P2W riddled throughout the game.  It's in ALL NATIONS at most tiers 3+.  The most-recent version of this is the Swedish Sav 20.  And let me put my money where my mouth is ... this is an RB tanks match ... my own performance in the Sd.Kfz.234/4 ... this vehicle should be 4.3, but it's 3.0 ... it's pure P2W:

 

2020-04-20.png

 

If you'd like to see the server replay from this match, here it is:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/98083884672966538

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21 minutes ago, Caelib said:

 

Honestly, you don't have to look very far to find P2W riddled throughout the game.  It's in ALL NATIONS at most tiers 3+.  The most-recent version of this is the Swedish Sav 20.  And let me put my money where my mouth is ... this is an RB tanks match ... my own performance in the Sd.Kfz.234/4 ... this vehicle should be 4.3, but it's 3.0 ... it's pure P2W:

 

2020-04-20.png

 

If you'd like to see the server replay from this match, here it is:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/98083884672966538

One match proves nothing (one way or the other)...i had great matches with Puma, M10, Jumbo, Marder, and lots other tree vehicles. I dont recall meeting 234/4...but Puma and Marder seem roughly equally effective (low armor and "big" gun). I DONT REALLY KNOW.

The fact that 234/4 is not something that worries me is somehow self-explanatory.

NOTE: I play mostly AB, so lightly armored vehicles are less relevant. The M18 (non-premium) is also considered OP by the RB crowd...i assume that it is for the same reasons...but in AB it is not.

 

OBVIOUSLY...there are PREMIUM OP vehicles...it would be hard to have NONE...but the percentage i would guess is similar in Premium and Non-Premium. It is possible the 234/4 is OP...not sure...

My "impression" is that up to BR6 there are few PREMIUM vehicle that provides a BIG advantage...and lots of tree vehicles. Also tree vehicles are much more common.

 

Other thing...the MAJORITY of the PREMIUM vehicles NEVER appear, because they don't provide ANY advantage...so those that do appear are the ones that are actually good... ;)

 

MY POINT...if you LOOK HARD ENOUGH you will find some OP Premium Vehicle and can "theoretically" find a P2W example. But gameplay does NOT feel PAY TO WIN, and i am on the way to my 3rd year. PREMIUMs are a minority and usually not more menacing than equivalent tree vehicles...the exceptions EXIST but are so rare that i actually like when i find them (it is a different issue to handle). Like i said...i just recall KV220...and perhaps on KV1 that the germans had with a bigger gun.

(I also am not sure if the issue is the tank being OP, or is just me not knowing the weak points)

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TO BE CLEAR:

I played other games where PREMIUM content was used in MOST matches and effectively overrides most of the skill. I gave up a game i was playing for 5+ years because i was being defeated by PAID units that i was not willing to buy. It was a RTS game, and the paying customer only had to deploy them and wait for the win...

 

Not the case in War Thunder GFAB up to BR6...PAID CONTENT effect on game victory is minimal.

(Effect on progress is visible, but thats another history)

 

Here, i'd rather be good than rich...as good players will always beat rich ones in War Thunder ;) (unless the rich player is also good)

Edited by *GhostSoph

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10 minutes ago, *GhostSoph said:

Not the case in War Thunder GFAB up to BR6...PAID CONTENT effect on game victory is minimal.

 

But it's not "minimal" because of one simple detail over-looked by many ... there is a completely opposite side of the P2W argument: offering purchasable vehicles at mid-to-high ruins the competitive nature of the game for RB.  The ramifications of this introduce two major problems:

 

1) new players do not have the skill to play at this level

2) new players do not have a vehicle lineup other than their one purchased vehicle

 

The impact of this creates a huge problem for the remaining players on the rest of the team and quite literally takes all of the competitive spirit out of the match ... especially when 3 or 4 players on a 15 person team are gone within 3 minutes of the match starting because they only have one vehicle on their bar.

 

Basically, P2W offers two terrible aspects to the game that just hurt it overall.

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5 hours ago, Caelib said:

1) new players do not have the skill to play at this level

2) new players do not have a vehicle lineup other than their one purchased vehicle

 

The impact of this creates a huge problem for the remaining players on the rest of the team and quite literally takes all of the competitive spirit out of the match ... especially when 3 or 4 players on a 15 person team are gone within 3 minutes of the match starting because they only have one vehicle on their bar.

So...WT is pay to (the team) lose ;) actually...

I actually understand what you say...but it is not pay to win ;)

It is actually ANOTHER reason NOT to buy premium vehicles...I initially assumed that once you bought a tank you could research other at its BR...

I can't understand the logic of selling tanks or helis for 40+ usd...and the buyer than is stuck with ONE VEHICLE lineup, high repair costs...and long MONTHS before a lineup gets there...

This I can agree makes no sense...i once considered buying a MBT to start playing at higher level...luckily I got the error BEFORE spending the cash...

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1 hour ago, *GhostSoph said:

I actually understand what you say...but it is not pay to win ;)

 

As I stated in my original post, it's P2W for the veterans who understand that these vehicles offer significant advantages over everything else.  If they were properly balanced with BR, you wouldn't see tons of veteran players playing mid-tier matches in them when they already have high tier vehicles unlocked ... they are using Premiums for P2W, not advancement.

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P2W is the illusion the game designers want you to see so the less enlightened will bust out the credit card chasing a win. Spending money can get you a descent vehicle if selected wisely and it will help take the sting and brain killing numbness out of grinding, what it won't do it make one a smarter / better player. Only time playing developing your skillz and learning the survival tricks to this hot mess is going to do that.

 

 Hey they gotta make money and I'm ok with that, every aspect of all Gaijin games is designed to draw it out players one way or another.   

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On 21/04/2020 at 00:51, Caelib said:

 

As I stated in my original post, it's P2W for the veterans who understand that these vehicles offer significant advantages over everything else.  If they were properly balanced with BR, you wouldn't see tons of veteran players playing mid-tier matches in them when they already have high tier vehicles unlocked ... they are using Premiums for P2W, not advancement.

Perhaps a bit...it is a SCALE issue. There is a MINOR number of veterans that identified those premiums that provide an advantage. BUT...if you look a bit deeper...there is a EVEN LARGER number of veterans that is doing the same with TREE VEHICLES. Veterans can identify better the vehicles and BRs where this advantage exists...

I am not a very good player, so i was mostly prey for such veterans. The number of PREMIUMs i felt underpowered to fight was much lower than the number of apparently OP tree vehicles.

As examples...PzII, KV1, T34M1942, Zis5, Jumbo...around this mark i got the idea and now i can handle the "tougher" opponents better (T26, King Tiger lately). In the middle of dozens of games where a veteran with one of these (TREE) ruled the map i got a FEW and FAR BETWEEN occurences where i met a  (PREMIUM) KV1 (German), KV220...and i dont recall others.

 

There is a GOOD EXAMPLE that goes both ways. It was common to find veteran players with a Jumbo AND a Cobra King...is this P2W?

Perhaps YES, but still very far from the P2W concept on other games. In this example a free player CAN USE A JUMBO for free...a paying customer gets TWO OF THEM. Advantage, YES it is, P2W formally also true...is it unberable for a free player, not at all. In fact...i saw paying customers COMPLAINING Cobra King was same as tree vehicle and in some moment in time it was in fact WORSE in terms of rewards.

 

So...my point:

War Thunder MAY HAVE a P2W element...but FAR FROM BEING GENERAL POLICY...and not a real factor in MOST GAMES. Good enough for me.

 

Final Comment:

Game is FREE TO PLAY. If paying customers don't have SOME ADVANTAGE to justify spending money, game will die. War Thunder gets THIS BALANCE better than any other game I PLAY. There may be games with even better balance...but i never played one. (NOTE...i never spent a dime on War Thunder)

Edited by *GhostSoph
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On 05/02/2020 at 03:17, Josephs_Piano said:

make your ammunition any more dangerous that the ammo that someone else has ground of F2P

 

Obj 120? APFSDS? Hello?

 

It even has a HEAT-FS with 480mm of pen, the Leopard 2k has that at 9.7, The object 120 is at 7.7

Edited by Agent0029
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On 05/02/2020 at 18:52, Csocso said:

This is as you can see only an Air RB player's point of view. I'm pretty sure I could compile lists of similar size on Ground RB, or God forbid Naval, which is a P2W slaughterfest (high-tier premium vessels are just beefed up versions of the TT variants). Bottom line is, yes, WT is pay to win.

 

I agree with the whole list, and I'm pretty sure there's an even bigger list for ground forces.

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On 04/02/2020 at 15:41, ertop911 said:

Can you play war thunder without paying?

Yes I grinded to the F86a-5 sabre without paying.

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1 hour ago, Kocant12 said:

Can you play war thunder without paying?

Hell...i have been trying to pay for something...my only "demand" is for it to be useful...and around the 20/25EUR mark (the price i usually pay for PS4 games, i avoid the early bird price).

 

I never found a premium worth the price...and i see no advantage in premium account...

Almost bought Cobra King back in the days where Jumbos felt unstoppable...

 

So i keep playing for free...

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1 minute ago, *GhostSoph said:

Hell...i have been trying to pay for something...my only "demand" is for it to be useful...and around the 20/25EUR mark (the price i usually pay for PS4 games, i avoid the early bird price).

 

I never found a premium worth the price...and i see no advantage in premium account...

Almost bought Cobra King back in the days where Jumbos felt unstoppable...

 

So i keep playing for free...

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that topic, premium account takes a lot of the suck out of grinding, for those of us with somewhat limited time for play it's a sanity saver in that respect.  

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31 minutes ago, SpankdaMonkey said:

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that topic, premium account takes a lot of the suck out of grinding, for those of us with somewhat limited time for play it's a sanity saver in that respect.  

I can agree to disagree...no problem.

 

Just to be clear...i am in no rush, and vehicle evolution is fast enough for me at BR6...i usually have a new vehicle when the previous one is spaded, so about right so far...

 

My issue is i usually dont have enough SL for the RP i generate, so i have to wait for SL to accumulate. Premium account actually makes RP even faster than SL...so it would make matters WORSE for me...or so i gather (feel free to correct me).

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2 hours ago, *GhostSoph said:

I can agree to disagree...no problem.

 

Just to be clear...i am in no rush, and vehicle evolution is fast enough for me at BR6...i usually have a new vehicle when the previous one is spaded, so about right so far...

 

My issue is i usually dont have enough SL for the RP i generate, so i have to wait for SL to accumulate. Premium account actually makes RP even faster than SL...so it would make matters WORSE for me...or so i gather (feel free to correct me).

Bit off topic but how I got around the SL deficit is I set up presets in all my trees between BR 4 to 5 and just played there a while, seems to be the most balanced area and with the least wait in AB. Rakes in SL's like crazy, trick is I don't buy that newly earned tank till Gaijin has it's regular sales with 1/3 to 1/2 off then I shop for them, makes the bank go a LOT farther and it feels good sitting on 50+ mil SL's earned that way.   

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