Turenkarn

USSR tree grinding - what happened to it?

So I'm kind of an on and off player, always eventually returning to the abusive relationship that War Thunder is (been playing since ground forces beta), but not for long enough to have many nations maxed.

 

Years ago when I was working on leveling my USA tree, I remember always hating russian tanks as foes. Their armor was often too strong, and their guns always seemed to have enough penetration to deal with my armor (except for stuff like T32), and the godlike damage of their APHE shells took care of the rest. I'm fairly certain they were by far the most overpowered tree back then, having it all: okay-ish mobility, good armor, good guns.

 

Didn't give much mind to them since, but I've recently started playing them because the idiotic matchmaker doesn't let me play together with a friend who mains Germany. (I've moved from US to maining Britain as soon as they were added to the game, I just really like their tank designs. However they don't work with Germany, and I have found that USSR is compatible with every nation MM-wise, and remembered they were quite stronk, so I picked them up.)

 

After so many years of versing the USSR I've gotten to playing them now, and man is it a horrible experience. I still think they were the strongest nation at one point, but BR compression hurts them immeasurably. Apart from rare exceptions (like the T32 I mentioned) russian tanks were the ones who could easily rely on their armor, they were great brawlers. They could easily bait you into taking a shot that their armor just shrugged off, then they oneshot your helpless a$$.

Now however, their armor no longer works. With the heavy BR compression we have, and with the addition of many modern vehicles (even at lower BRs) that spew APDS and HEAT and also tend to be really fast, I just feel hopeless playing USSR tonks.

 

Strip them of their OP armor, and they don't really have anything else going for them. Their mobility is mediocre, their guns might still be strong but their gun handling is just horrible. Back when their armor worked they could afford having horrible gun handling because they didn't have to care about who takes the first shot. But now they do have to care, and man is it bad?!

For example T-44's gun is so wobbly it's not even funny anymore, it shakes more than a Hellcat's gun which I never thought possible. You finally get through those, with teeth grinding, then you get to T-54... have you seen the turret rotation speed on that? Seriously WTF, do the dudes inside hand-crank it or what? Not to mention the horrible gun depression which gets me killed so often... Driving the T-54 what the xxxx am I supposed to do against a foe who has at least +10°/sec turret rotation on me, has about -6° gun depression on me, can pen me pretty much anywhere and in some situations even has a gun stabilizer. Against such odds I could only ever be the one taking the first shot if I was camping like crazy, which I absolutely despise doing.

 

Russian tanks were like: take a punch, send a bigger one back. Now they're like: take a punch, explode with nice sparks. They weren't required to be the first one to shoot, they could brawl like crazy... Now they are required (same as everyone else), but their gun handling didn't change to let it. They're no longer competitive.

 

I guess at top tier - with the T-80U - they still play the way they used to, armor on that thing wasn't (yet?) nullified by BR compression, but grinding through the tree now and getting there... it is an awful experience! And it's also a very long one, since thanks to their - now inferior - tank designs, they tend to lose the vast majority of their matches, leading to you getting low RP / hour even if you're doing good.

 

I was also eyeing the T-55AM-1 to speed up my griding process, but looking at the tank it feels so horribly dated, and the lineup that you can pair it with (T-55A and T-62) even more so. I do know for a fact they were very strong at one point in the past, but now with the 100km/h Italian shites, ATGM helicopters and things with Thermal Sights shooting at them, they're hopelessly underwhelming...

Edited by Turenkarn
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My complete point of view is from Ground RB point of view !!!

 

Russian Tanks have there strong BR and weak BR like evry Nation ! First FACT ... you dont win just because u are in russian tanks

Russian Tanks have there best times at BR 2 - 7 , then later armor give less favor and the rush braindead gameplay what many russian tank players like is against the meta ! Believe or not there is no bias .

 

BR 8.3 - 10.3 Tanks are still good tanks but not better then other nations have also weakpoints , gunhandling , design , mobility. Also later not your tank ongly counts u need full setup . Planes , Helos , SPAA , AFVs  follow the META is important .

Even your allied nation in the match plays a big role , HT gameplay.

 

Overall grinding russian tanks is still easy and fun . Grind Brits is hard ! Also i dont like japanese.

My best grinds from 0 to 10.3 are Russia , France and German , US was mixed to me .

 

 

 

Edited by Haxburch
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Problem is that most of soviet tanks are overtiered. From br 5 and up soviet tanks are more and more hopeless since their natural enemies are getting lower br every patch while they stay at same as before. Tiger is 5.3 now while t-34-85 still sits at 5.7. T-44s are meme at this point same as is entire sov td line. IS-2s are good but niche tanks and cant carry team. IS-3/4 are joke. T-10 got powercreeped. T-54s got br increase to 7.7 where they are obsolete. T-62 and T-55A used to be good but got powercreeped by all new go karts with darts. T-64A was worst era 6 tanks but somehow it stayed at 9.3 while xwz twins while better then it got lowered to 9.0. T-64B was usable at least for a while coz of good armor but then everyone got new darts that can lolpen it so its kinda useless now. T-62M and T-72 came too late to make any impact. Same with T-80B/U. They came 1-2 patches too late. Now that we got thermals its even worse. Only T-80s get it and whey first have to research normal NV and then thermals while everyone else gets straight to thermals. Ka-50 is only thing that keeps soviet top tier from complete collapse, but its only matter of time before it gets nerfed (I dont own just to be clear).

 

TLDR: play sov up to br 5.0/5.3 then play something else if you want to have fun

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1 hour ago, Haxburch said:

Overall grinding russian tanks is still easy and fun . Grind Brits is hard ! Also i dont like japanese

 

Well but when did you grind russians? Years ago? They were very strong at one point, but aren't anymore. And there is no rushing gameplay with them, since their armor became obsolete.

They're still strong up to BR 4.3, with the T-34-57 where their armor still works, but above that, they just suck.

 

Brits however were always strong, once you get to Rank III with them, starting from around the Firefly, they keep on kicking ****. I even said I main Britain, and they're a lot easier to play than USSR tanks. Sure low calibre APDS does borderline no damage, which could be a suprise if someone comes with strong APHE experience... you need brains to aim with the Brits, but once you got that covered, they're awesome.

 

45 minutes ago, Zoky said:

Problem is that most of soviet tanks are overtiered. ...

TLDR: play sov up to br 5.0/5.3 then play something else if you want to have fun

 

I'd very gladly play something else, I even said I did, only I need a nation leveled up that can play together with the Germans, with the stupid MM pairings that we have. My US + Britain lineups force mixed battles when we squad up with my Germany friend. That's the only reason I went for the USSR and I'm too deep in (at 7.7) to turn back.

 

I don't want to play Germany because they're disgustingly OP (especially at top tiers) and I'm not one to join the dark side, I'd rather keep on blowing them up every chance I get. Italy is disgusting for different reasons, and I'm not a pizza delivery guy anyways, I hate wheeled stuff. France is just a sorry **** money sink. Japan maaaybe, but they have so ridiculously few tanks they can't even form a decent lineup at most BRs, plus top Japan (Type 90) isn't that very different of an experience from the Abrams series which I already have.

And well, what else is there, that MM allows to play with Germany and is not Germany itself? So, that's how I ended up grinding the USSR...

 

Btw yeah I'm not saying their tanks are straight up bad, I guess they aren't, but they're so extremely dated. They're on the same BRs with vastly more advanced adversaries, like T-54 was never meant to fight APFSDS shooting, gun stabilized quickboys. And it's even funnier when I get uptiered to 8.7 (happens A LOT) and get roflstomped by stupidly OP Leo A1A1 L/44s, who carry around a BR 9.7 gun, equipped with stabilizers AND Thermal Sights at BR 8.7. It's just ridiculous.

Edited by Turenkarn
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3 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

So I'm kind of an on and off player, always eventually returning to the abusive relationship that War Thunder is (been playing since ground forces beta), but not for long enough to have many nations maxed.

 

Years ago when I was working on leveling my USA tree, I remember always hating russian tanks as foes. Their armor was often too strong, and their guns always seemed to have enough penetration to deal with my armor (except for stuff like T32), and the godlike damage of their APHE shells took care of the rest. I'm fairly certain they were by far the most overpowered tree back then, having it all: okay-ish mobility, good armor, good guns.

 

Didn't give much mind to them since, but I've recently started playing them because the idiotic matchmaker doesn't let me play together with a friend who mains Germany. (I've moved from US to maining Britain as soon as they were added to the game, I just really like their tank designs. However they don't work with Germany, and I have found that USSR is compatible with every nation MM-wise, and remembered they were quite stronk, so I picked them up.)

 

After so many years of versing the USSR I've gotten to playing them now, and man is it a horrible experience. I still think they were the strongest nation at one point, but BR compression hurts them immeasurably. Apart from rare exceptions (like the T32 I mentioned) russian tanks were the ones who could easily rely on their armor, they were great brawlers. They could easily bait you into taking a shot that their armor just shrugged off, then they oneshot your helpless a$$.

Now however, their armor no longer works. With the heavy BR compression we have, and with the addition of many modern vehicles (even at lower BRs) that spew APDS and HEAT and also tend to be really fast, I just feel hopeless playing USSR tonks.

 

Strip them of their OP armor, and they don't really have anything else going for them. Their mobility is mediocre, their guns might still be strong but their gun handling is just horrible. Back when their armor worked they could afford having horrible gun handling because they didn't have to care about who takes the first shot. But now they do have to care, and man is it bad?!

For example T-44's gun is so wobbly it's not even funny anymore, it shakes more than a Hellcat's gun which I never thought possible. You finally get through those, with teeth grinding, then you get to T-54... have you seen the turret rotation speed on that? Seriously WTF, do the dudes inside hand-crank it or what? Not to mention the horrible gun depression which gets me killed so often... Driving the T-54 what the xxxx am I supposed to do against a foe who has at least +10°/sec turret rotation on me, has about -6° gun depression on me, can pen me pretty much anywhere and in some situations even has a gun stabilizer. Against such odds I could only ever be the one taking the first shot if I was camping like crazy, which I absolutely despise doing.

 

Russian tanks were like: take a punch, send a bigger one back. Now they're like: take a punch, explode with nice sparks. They weren't required to be the first one to shoot, they could brawl like crazy... Now they are required (same as everyone else), but their gun handling didn't change to let it. They're no longer competitive.

 

I guess at top tier - with the T-80U - they still play the way they used to, armor on that thing wasn't (yet?) nullified by BR compression, but grinding through the tree now and getting there... it is an awful experience! And it's also a very long one, since thanks to their - now inferior - tank designs, they tend to lose the vast majority of their matches, leading to you getting low RP / hour even if you're doing good.

 

I was also eyeing the T-55AM-1 to speed up my griding process, but looking at the tank it feels so horribly dated, and the lineup that you can pair it with (T-55A and T-62) even more so. I do know for a fact they were very strong at one point in the past, but now with the 100km/h Italian shites, ATGM helicopters and things with Thermal Sights shooting at them, they're hopelessly underwhelming...

 

I'll give you a 6/10 for the effort.

In all the years since Ground Forces got introduced there were a lot of changes, a lot of new units were added and even a new system to calculate gun penetration so pretty much everything changed in a few years, you know everything except magical USSR ammunition and it's ability to penetrate sloped armor to an uncanny degree.

Spoiler

 

Personally I'd sum your experiences as a learn to play issue:

  • 45mm 20-K is awesome: T-26 a bit slow but it has the gun to compensate, BT-5 and 7 are very good if a bit hard to steer, T-70 is a terrific seal clubber if you can handle the slow turret traverse, T-80 is similar, a bit worse armor but a lot faster reload.
  • 76mm L-11 is awesome: If you take that split second to aim and not fire at center of mass on vehicles you can't penetrate, T-34 1940 best tank at 3.3 alongside 3.3 Sherman's, everything else is drivel, sure they might have a gun that can threaten you yet they definitively don't have the armor to back it up, like you have. T-34 1940 hull armor is immune to everything it faces except small and therefore hard to hit weak points and the turret may or may not save your life, Sherman's are similar only their weak points are more in number and more sizeable and the turret is better than the T-34 1940.
  • 76mm F-34, ZIS-5 and F-96 are awesome: There is nothing that can resist these rounds if you are close enough and/or you aim your shots, sloped armor is a disadvantage against these guns as they'll go trough it like butter. T-34 1941 is a T-34 1940 with a much better gun and same weak points, T-34 1942 is a complete upgrade, hull weak points eliminated, making it immune to almost every enemy and the turret gets revamped offering more than twice the protection so it also becomes a strong points, except the turret ring.
  • 85mm D-5T and ZIS-S-53 are awesome: Best guns mounted on the best vehicles at their tier, the T-34-85 has everything, the gun, the mobility, the gun dynamics and the possibility to survive getting shot. Absolutely no vehicle can resist them if you know where to shoot if you can't penetrate center of mass. Churchill Mk VII shoot turret roof or sloped part of hull armor, Tiger 1 shoot everywhere except parts of front turret, especially shoot cupola to kill whole turret crew on H1, same thing with Jumbo except avoid shooting turret at all, same thing Panther's except avoid the hull front and either shoot hull sides where possible or turret front or cupola, you get the point if you know where to shoot nothing can resist your gun.

The list goes on, APHEBC rounds for USSR vehicles ignore most of the armor provided by angles so all their guns are exceptional, T-34 series are very agile and easy to handle, T-34-85 is even better at this, KV-1 series are similar, IS-1 and 2 series are similar, except you lose a lot of speed turning, T-44 gun wobble is minimal in duration and effect on the user as for T-54 how fast do you need them to turn the turret? Personally I think they are fine, above this tier and above this vehicle I have no experience.

 

To sum it up, why do so many players use these "bad" vehicles? Why are some "bad" vehicles among the best at their BR? By the way fuel tanks on T-34's and KV-1's act as armor sometimes or definitively act as armor if the shell barely has enough penetration to go trough. To fix your issues with USSR vehicles you just need to play them more and learn from your own experiences, good and bad ones.

This is from an AB perspective but magical USSR ammo also applies to RB and SB.

 

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1 hour ago, ArthurWood said:

I'll give you a 6/10 for the effort.

 

Hey I never said anything bad about the guns ballistic properties, or their shells, I only said the gun handling is very bad. However if you play AB you wouldn't know that, things are very different there, no wonder you have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention things like super-slow turret rotation on T-54s. Basically with AB you're playing in easy mode, when it comes to vehicle/gun handling.

 

The guns are mostly quite okay, getting them on target is the issue. The 85mm guns you mentioned aren't good though, or maybe their first versions at BR 5.3 still are (especially on the IS-1), but in general the US 76mm gun is far superior in every aspect. This is just a temporary low though, the guns before it (especially the long 57mm) and the gun after it (the 100mm one which shoots the BR-412D OPHE) are really nice, they're one-shot machines... but mounted on tanks that are seriously lacking in other aspects.

 

Anyhow whatever I said above I meant it with RB in mind, that's where I play and that's where we have the stupid nation lockouts of MM I mentioned. Also I never said that I'm doing terribly bad in these vehicles, I do understand how they work and can use them, for example here is one from this weekend. I only meant to say they have way too many drawbacks, and their only big advantage (armor), that countered all those, was nullified by BR Compression in the past 1-2 years.

Edited by Turenkarn
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6 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

Years ago when I was working on leveling my USA tree, I remember always hating russian tanks as foes. Their armor was often too strong, and their guns always seemed to have enough penetration to deal with my armor (except for stuff like T32), and the godlike damage of their APHE shells took care of the rest. I'm fairly certain they were by far the most overpowered tree back then, having it all: okay-ish mobility, good armor, good guns.

 

Didn't give much mind to them since, but I've recently started playing them because the idiotic matchmaker doesn't let me play together with a friend who mains Germany.

 

After so many years of versing the USSR I've gotten to playing them now, and man is it a horrible experience. 

They could easily bait you into taking a shot that their armor just shrugged off, then they oneshot your helpless a$$.

Now however, their armor no longer works.

With the heavy BR compression we have, and with the addition of many modern vehicles (even at lower BRs) that spew APDS and HEAT and also tend to be really fast, I just feel hopeless playing USSR tonks.

 

Strip them of their OP armor, and they don't really have anything else going for them.

Their mobility is mediocre,

their guns might still be strong but their gun handling is just horrible.

Back when their armor worked they could afford having horrible gun handling because they didn't have to care about who takes the first shot.

now they do have to care, and man is it bad?!

For example T-44's gun is so wobbly it's not even funny anymore,

You finally get through those, with teeth grinding, then you get to T-54... have you seen the turret rotation speed on that? Seriously WTF, do the dudes inside hand-crank it or what?

Not to mention the horrible gun depression which gets me killed so often...

Driving the T-54 what the xxxx am I supposed to do against a foe who has at least +10°/sec turret rotation on me, has about -6° gun depression on me, can pen me pretty much anywhere and in some situations even has a gun stabilizer.

Against such odds I could only ever be the one taking the first shot if I was camping like crazy, which I absolutely despise doing.

 

Russian tanks were like: take a punch, send a bigger one back. Now they're like: take a punch, explode with nice sparks

They weren't required to be the first one to shoot, they could brawl like crazy...

Now they are required (same as everyone else), but their gun handling didn't change to let it. They're no longer competitive.

 

I guess at top tier - with the T-80U - they still play the way they used to, 

but grinding through the tree now and getting there... it is an awful experience!

And it's also a very long one, since thanks to their - now inferior - tank designs, they tend to lose the vast majority of their matches, leading to you getting low RP / hour even if you're doing good.

 

Isn't this just you complaining USSR "tonks" suck to play (bad armor, average mobility, "horrible" gun handling, "horrible" gun depression)? From an AB perspective it just isn't true, If I had recent match experience with RB and SB I'd try to argue the same thing there. Does it say anywhere in your post your experience is regarding RB or SB?

 

Spoiler
1 hour ago, Turenkarn said:

Hey I never said anything bad about the guns ballistic properties, or their shells, I only said the gun handling is very bad. However if you play AB you wouldn't know that, things are very different there, no wonder you have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention things like super-slow turret rotation on T-54s. Basically with AB you're playing in easy mode, when it comes to vehicle/gun handling.

 

The guns are mostly quite okay, getting them on target is the issue. The 85mm guns you mentioned aren't good though, or maybe their first versions at BR 5.3 still are (especially on the IS-1), but in general the US 76mm gun is far superior in every aspect. This is just a temporary low though, the guns before it (especially the long 57mm) and the gun after it (the 100mm one which shoots the BR-412D OPHE) are really nice, they're one-shot machines... but mounted on tanks that are seriously lacking in other aspects.

 

Anyhow whatever I said above I meant it with RB in mind, that's where I play and that's where we have the stupid nation lockouts of MM I mentioned. Also I never said that I'm doing terribly bad in these vehicles, I do understand how they work and can use them, for example here is one from this weekend. I only meant to say they have way too many drawbacks, and their only big advantage (armor), that countered all those, was nullified by BR Compression in the past 1-2 years.

 

Man how could you possibly say USSR 85mm ain't good(enough)? Armor and ammunition characteristics don't change from AB to RB or SB so if 85mm can pen everything it can meet at BR 5.3-6.3 frontally and everything it can meet at BR 5.7-6.7 frontally and often 1 shot or severely cripple the opponent how is that not good enough? The only problem are Tiger 2H from the front and Tortoise, but man even then, nothing has enough armor to resist a side shot. Compared to USSR 85mm, US 76mm does not offer tangible benefits other than reload speed, stabilizer and gun depression are features offered by the vehicle. The 57mm offers no advantage other than reload speed and very high chance of setting fires and detonating ammunition racks and I do agree the 100mm is pretty nice.

 

I tried realistic test drive on T-34-1941,1942, T-34-85, T-44 and T-54, they have acceptable gun handling and mobility compared to Sherman M4A2, Tiger H1 and M48A1, you can't shoot on the move with anything resembling precision but other than that and waiting for the gun to settle on target like everyone else without a stabilizer there's no problem.

It's a level playing field in my opinion a very good vehicle in AB won't become a wreck in RB or SB, similarly there's not much you can do about gun depression other than adapting to the vehicle by using proper placement in your environment, as for armor, personally I think it never mattered much, everyone can pen everyone from the front if you hit the right spot, if someone can't pen they'll just shot somewhere they can pen or cripple your mobility and/or ability to fire back then they can take their time to dissect you properly.

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2 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

Also I never said that I'm doing terribly bad in these vehicles,

 

8 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

 I just feel hopeless playing USSR tonks.

If that does not mean you are doing bad in USSR vehicles then I don't know what is.

Spoiler

1876156369_hopelessmeaning.png.309d8a477

 

Edited by ArthurWood
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Finally a thread about the lackluster Soviet tree in general, yes the t34-85 has a decemt round, but you have to he able to land it..

T44 is crap in its be (some have luck due to their mm liking them I guess?)

IS2's outperformed by panthers, side shots are the only way this thing can be usefull, but then the reload kicks in, with no effective armour and you are dead.

Su100p for example a good gun for its br, the rest nah, let alone that every single match is a full br uptier in all my line ups..

 

Soviet tree is Just for those who like to drive themselves crazy and get emotionally selfharmed.

 

The meta and added tanks, (and ofcrourse the br compression) renders them mostly pretty useless.

 

US /Brits are generally steamrolling my teams, everything is faster and shooting better rounds, and if that part is over, you die (regardless allies or axis) due to planes since the russians dont have any AA that does seem to do anything until 8.3..

 

Soon this thread will be flooded with Muricans and Wheraboos taking it over with their whining, as they always do.., so although great someone does also see what is happening, nothing will happen or change eventually..

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ArthurWood said:
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Isn't this just you complaining USSR "tonks" suck to play (bad armor, average mobility, "horrible" gun handling, "horrible" gun depression)? From an AB perspective it just isn't true, If I had recent match experience with RB and SB I'd try to argue the same thing there. Does it say anywhere in your post your experience is regarding RB or SB?

 

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Man how could you possibly say USSR 85mm ain't good(enough)? Armor and ammunition characteristics don't change from AB to RB or SB so if 85mm can pen everything it can meet at BR 5.3-6.3 frontally and everything it can meet at BR 5.7-6.7 frontally and often 1 shot or severely cripple the opponent how is that not good enough? The only problem are Tiger 2H from the front and Tortoise, but man even then, nothing has enough armor to resist a side shot. Compared to USSR 85mm, US 76mm does not offer tangible benefits other than reload speed, stabilizer and gun depression are features offered by the vehicle. 

Two problems I have with this.

1. Those benefits do matter

2. US tanks start fitting 90mm at 5.7 onward with the T25. Whereas the 100mm only begins at 6.3 on the SU-100 TD chassis, and the turreted 100mm starts at 7.0 as the T-44-100 researchable or the 6.7 T-34-100 premium.

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Don't forget that T-34-85s T-44s IS tanks and soviet td's have only 4x zoom. Everyone else have 5x at those br. with many time travelers having 8x or more. And slower shells. And slower reload. And the worst depression

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5 hours ago, ArthurWood said:

...

 

I simply assumed playing and talking about RB as any decent player would, seems to be the default setting both around these forums and with the "influencers" / streamers as well. If you're playing AB, you're the odd one out.

 

Half of what you're saying is just plain wrong, like D-5T / 85mm USSR gun being able to pen everything bar Tiger II and such 6.3 vehicles is just plain wrong. Even against the 5.3 Jumbo your only chance is the machine gun port, which is pretty hard to hit from a distance and is also usually hidden by bushes. A Tiger 1 played by any decent player is also quite tricky to pen, and the list goes on, the 85mm can have more than enough trouble with vehicles in the same BR. The US 76mm (also BR 5.3) is far better, the stabilizer is worth A LOT if you know how to use it (don't exceed 15km/h), has better penetration, much quicker reload, and pretty comparable HE effect.

I also never said the 57mm is better at the same BR as the 85mm is, I specifically said it's great for the T-34-57 which is BR 4.3. It performs a lot better at that BR than how the 85mm performs at BR 5.3 - 6.3. It's an obvious step back, has nearly identical penetration, but far worse gun handling and reload speeds. Sure the 57mm doesn't guarantee a one shot kill, but it can really pen everything at it's own BR, unlike the 85mm.

 

Your AB experience is worth a lot less in RB terms than you seem to think. You're assuming everyone will hit the tiniest of weakspots from hundreds of metres away and with the first shot, which is not how RB plays. You're also assuming the horrible gun depression can easily be overcame by "proper placement", which might work in AB where every tank drives like xxxx go-karts, but in RB your options are much more limited. I'm not even going to bother trying to explain everything, go and play RB (or even SB) if you want to understand what everone - but you - are talking about here.

 

And by feeling hopeless playing with most russian tanks above BR 4.3 I of course meant that I feel like I'm handicapped, starting the match with a disadvantage, having little hope for a victory, but you of course had to willingly misinterpret that too.

Edited by Turenkarn
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5 hours ago, ArthurWood said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Isn't this just you complaining USSR "tonks" suck to play (bad armor, average mobility, "horrible" gun handling, "horrible" gun depression)? From an AB perspective it just isn't true, If I had recent match experience with RB and SB I'd try to argue the same thing there. Does it say anywhere in your post your experience is regarding RB or SB?

 

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Man how could you possibly say USSR 85mm ain't good(enough)? Armor and ammunition characteristics don't change from AB to RB or SB so if 85mm can pen everything it can meet at BR 5.3-6.3 frontally and everything it can meet at BR 5.7-6.7 frontally and often 1 shot or severely cripple the opponent how is that not good enough? The only problem are Tiger 2H from the front and Tortoise, but man even then, nothing has enough armor to resist a side shot. Compared to USSR 85mm, US 76mm does not offer tangible benefits other than reload speed, stabilizer and gun depression are features offered by the vehicle. The 57mm offers no advantage other than reload speed and very high chance of setting fires and detonating ammunition racks and I do agree the 100mm is pretty nice.

 

I tried realistic test drive on T-34-1941,1942, T-34-85, T-44 and T-54, they have acceptable gun handling and mobility compared to Sherman M4A2, Tiger H1 and M48A1, you can't shoot on the move with anything resembling precision but other than that and waiting for the gun to settle on target like everyone else without a stabilizer there's no problem.

It's a level playing field in my opinion a very good vehicle in AB won't become a wreck in RB or SB, similarly there's not much you can do about gun depression other than adapting to the vehicle by using proper placement in your environment, as for armor, personally I think it never mattered much, everyone can pen everyone from the front if you hit the right spot, if someone can't pen they'll just shot somewhere they can pen or cripple your mobility and/or ability to fire back then they can take their time to dissect you properly.

You really believe that the t34-85 gun can oblitorate anything....jumbo no..panther no and many more (which I am not going to mention or look up since your mind set is to disbelieve anything which counters that).

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13 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

 

 

I guess at top tier - with the T-80U - they still play the way they used to, armor on that thing wasn't (yet?) nullified by BR compression, but grinding through the tree now and getting there... it is an awful experience! And it's also a very long one, since thanks to their - now inferior - tank designs, they tend to lose the vast majority of their matches, leading to you getting low RP / hour even if you're doing good.

 

 

 

 

Top tier USSR is actually dreadful. Enjoy your -5 depression tank with 10kph reverse that can be 1 shot by XM1 across the map. 

 

The only reason they are doing -something- at the moment is 

 

1) Enemy uses XM1 in 1 death leaver 

 

2) KA-50 carry

 

 

Edited by DaffanZ
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10 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

I simply assumed playing and talking about RB as any decent player would, seems to be the default setting both around these forums and with the "influencers" / streamers as well. If you're playing AB, you're the odd one out.

 

Half of what you're saying is just plain wrong, like D-5T / 85mm USSR gun being able to pen everything bar Tiger II and such 6.3 vehicles is just plain wrong. Even against the 5.3 Jumbo your only chance is the machine gun port, which is pretty hard to hit from a distance and is also usually hidden by bushes. A Tiger 1 played by any decent player is also quite tricky to pen, and the list goes on, the 85mm can have more than enough trouble with vehicles in the same BR. The US 76mm (also BR 5.3) is far better, the stabilizer is worth A LOT if you know how to use it (don't exceed 15km/h), has better penetration, much quicker reload, and pretty comparable HE effect.

I also never said the 57mm is better at the same BR as the 85mm is, I specifically said it's great for the T-34-57 which is BR 4.3. It performs a lot better at that BR than how the 85mm performs at BR 5.3 - 6.3. It's an obvious step back, has nearly identical penetration, but far worse gun handling and reload speeds. Sure the 57mm doesn't guarantee a one shot kill, but it can really pen everything at it's own BR, unlike the 85mm.

 

Your AB experience is worth a lot less in RB terms than you seem to think. You're assuming everyone will hit the tiniest of weakspots from hundreds of metres away and with the first shot, which is not how RB plays. You're also assuming the horrible gun depression can easily be overcame by "proper placement", which might work in AB where every tank drives like xxxx go-karts, but in RB your options are much more limited. I'm not even going to bother trying to explain everything, go and play RB (or even SB) if you want to understand what everone - but you - are talking about here.

 

And by feeling hopeless playing with most russian tanks above BR 4.3 I of course meant that I feel like I'm handicapped, starting the match with a disadvantage, having little hope for a victory, but you of course had to willingly misinterpret that too.

 

You know, AB isn't only for scrubs and RB for elitists, like I said armor and shell characteristics don't change with the game mode.

I don't assume what I said, I'm sure of it, if you are close enough or hit the right spot 85mm can pen anything except Tiger 2H from the front and Tortoise.

To pen Jumbo front plate just be at around 300m, Jumbo lower side plate should be your main dish, tiniest bit exposed and he's out there's also the cupola, how does a skillful Tiger 1  player matter here(?), most of the armor angling is negated by the BR-365A shell, otherwise aim for the cupola if on the H1 if you can't get a clean shot somewhere else or think and wait to shoot somewhere more appropriate when the opportunity presents itself  H1 or E, and if the Tiger player can be good why can't you be good?

Stabilizers good, didn't say they weren't, especially in RB.

Any pen increase in US 76mm over USSR 85mm is useless, there should be no vehicle US 76mm can pen and 85mm can not.

I'm starting to think there is a language barrier here, you said this

17 hours ago, Turenkarn said:

The 85mm guns you mentioned aren't good though,

but in general the US 76mm gun is far superior in every aspect.

This is just a temporary low though, the guns before it (especially the long 57mm) and the gun after it (the 100mm one which shoots the BR-412D OPHE) are really nice, they're one-shot machines... but mounted on tanks that are seriously lacking in other aspects.

That makes me think you say 57mm better than 85mm, no mention of BR and other vehicles.

 

My AB experience is worth what it's worth, knowing where to shoot does not change, hitting where you should is the tricky part.

I did play RB and SB, it's nice expect the planes and the slower pace action and there is no incentive for me to go back.

Google is your friend dude, if you don't know the meaning of a word, use google to learn it. If a word does not mean what you think it means, it is not wrong for someone else to call you out on the real meaning.

By the way there are specific threads for ground forces RB https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/forum/836-ground-battles/ perhaps you should had posted it in the right place before assuming everyone plays only RB.

So yeah, posting your thread in general topics and getting general advice, what do you expect?

 

10 hours ago, Pelegai said:

You really believe that the t34-85 gun can oblitorate anything....jumbo no..panther no and many more (which I am not going to mention or look up since your mind set is to disbelieve anything which counters that).

Jumbo hull front at ~300m straight, Jumbo lower hull sides - depends on the situation, cupola as long as you can hit it.

Panther's really giving you problems? Turret front usually, hull sides - very easy to penetrate usually, cupola if there is no more appropriate place to shoot.

Ferdinand hull cheeks, can take out the driver if you're lucky, before the introduction of internal armor divider it could also set it on fire, take out the engine and/or kill gunner and other crew.

Tiger 1P hull cheeks, takes out in 1 hit or severely cripples. Tiger 1H everywhere except areas on turret front. Tiger 1E everywhere except areas on turret front and cupola.

Jagdpanther hit the MG port, otherwise there is very small area you can pen near gun at 80mm, at ~300m you can pen hull front on the lower part.

Super Pershing, hull roof.

 

Really don't know why some try to deny, 85mm with BR-365A has no problems taking out anything it can meet at it's BR range. Fine in AB but it's still possible in RB if the right conditions are met.

You guys know, if something really gives you so much problems, perhaps it's not meant to be played at all or it's not meant to be played the way you are trying to play it.

If something is very hard to play and brings frustration, why continue bringing harm onto yourself? What I do is avoid it, I avoid playing vehicles without turrets mostly because it's difficult to get the first shot, no armor or no good gun, I avoid SPAA because most of the time I can't kill tanks, I avoid higher BR than 5.7 because most of the time it's not fun, you get the point avoid if you don't like something avoid it.

 

I got free ace qualification on T-34-85 and you simply don't get free ace qualification on something you don't enjoy playing it or if it's not good.

Spoiler

So yeah, posting your thread in general topics and getting general advice, what do you expect?

 

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1 hour ago, ArthurWood said:
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You know, AB isn't only for scrubs and RB for elitists, like I said armor and shell characteristics don't change with the game mode.

I don't assume what I said, I'm sure of it, if you are close enough or hit the right spot 85mm can pen anything except Tiger 2H from the front and Tortoise.

To pen Jumbo front plate just be at around 300m, Jumbo lower side plate should be your main dish, tiniest bit exposed and he's out there's also the cupola, how does a skillful Tiger 1  player matter here(?), most of the armor angling is negated by the BR-365A shell, otherwise aim for the cupola if on the H1 if you can't get a clean shot somewhere else or think and wait to shoot somewhere more appropriate when the opportunity presents itself  H1 or E, and if the Tiger player can be good why can't you be good?

Stabilizers good, didn't say they weren't, especially in RB.

Any pen increase in US 76mm over USSR 85mm is useless, there should be no vehicle US 76mm can pen and 85mm can not.

I'm starting to think there is a language barrier here, you said this

That makes me think you say 57mm better than 85mm, no mention of BR and other vehicles.

 

My AB experience is worth what it's worth, knowing where to shoot does not change, hitting where you should is the tricky part.

I did play RB and SB, it's nice expect the planes and the slower pace action and there is no incentive for me to go back.

Google is your friend dude, if you don't know the meaning of a word, use google to learn it. If a word does not mean what you think it means, it is not wrong for someone else to call you out on the real meaning.

By the way there are specific threads for ground forces RB https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/forum/836-ground-battles/ perhaps you should had posted it in the right place before assuming everyone plays only RB.

So yeah, posting your thread in general topics and getting general advice, what do you expect?

 

Jumbo hull front at ~300m straight, Jumbo lower hull sides - depends on the situation, cupola as long as you can hit it.

Panther's really giving you problems? Turret front usually, hull sides - very easy to penetrate usually, cupola if there is no more appropriate place to shoot.

Ferdinand hull cheeks, can take out the driver if you're lucky, before the introduction of internal armor divider it could also set it on fire, take out the engine and/or kill gunner and other crew.

Tiger 1P hull cheeks, takes out in 1 hit or severely cripples. Tiger 1H everywhere except areas on turret front. Tiger 1E everywhere except areas on turret front and cupola.

Jagdpanther hit the MG port, otherwise there is very small area you can pen near gun at 80mm, at ~300m you can pen hull front on the lower part.

Super Pershing, hull roof.

 

Really don't know why some try to deny, 85mm with BR-365A has no problems taking out anything it can meet at it's BR range. Fine in AB but it's still possible in RB if the right conditions are met.

You guys know, if something really gives you so much problems, perhaps it's not meant to be played at all or it's not meant to be played the way you are trying to play it.

If something is very hard to play and brings frustration, why continue bringing harm onto yourself? What I do is avoid it, I avoid playing vehicles without turrets mostly because it's difficult to get the first shot, no armor or no good gun, I avoid SPAA because most of the time I can't kill tanks, I avoid higher BR than 5.7 because most of the time it's not fun, you get the point avoid if you don't like something avoid it.

 

I got free ace qualification on T-34-85 and you simply don't get free ace qualification on something you don't enjoy playing it or if it's not good.

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So yeah, posting your thread in general topics and getting general advice, what do you expect?

 

I guess I only face players who know how to use their jumbo's /panthers then....your talks sound good, doesnt work in my game. (Not talking about sideshots, those wont happen as a standard meeting with tankers.)

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9 minutes ago, Samuel_Hyde said:

T-34 85 D5T is in 5.3

T-34 57 which is currently has better pen than the 85mm

And so has the:

 

panzer 4 at 3.3

Avenger at 4.7

Firefly at 4.7

(Just a few as example)

 

...so your point was exactly?

 

(T34-57 has an even weaker turret and less filler then the t34-85, so you need three or 4 shots in general with that one if you would play this one at 5.3-6.3)

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2 hours ago, Pelegai said:

I guess I only face players who know how to use their jumbo's /panthers then....your talks sound good, doesnt work in my game. (Not talking about sideshots, those wont happen as a standard meeting with tankers.)

Like I said knowing where to shoot is easy hitting said spot is more difficult, as for side shots I don't mean you need to face the whole side armor, just need a small angle so the shell goes in, aim marker in AB is of help here for RB you'd probably wait for the "safe" shot or take your chances with what's more likely to pen. There's always cupola shots as a backup that kills whole turret crew and Panther turrets are a little harder to pen due to all that layered armor but it's only parts of it.

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1 hour ago, ArthurWood said:

Like I said knowing where to shoot is easy hitting said spot is more difficult, as for side shots I don't mean you need to face the whole side armor, just need a small angle so the shell goes in, aim marker in AB is of help here for RB you'd probably wait for the "safe" shot or take your chances with what's more likely to pen. There's always cupola shots as a backup that kills whole turret crew and Panther turrets are a little harder to pen due to all that layered armor but it's only parts of it.

Exactly the safe shot....that takes time (especially with the pixelhunt of the great zoom..) and a turret aiming at you, which is easily penned and a hull that aint so tough is a guaranteed one shot, that makes the big difference...

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Ah yes BR compression that cause problem.

Keep in mind that this system effect every nations that got uptier. Not just Soviet.  It just that Soviet tank rely on armor more than anyone else. which make uptier hurt them more than others.

 

Because of small profile tank which mean they had cramp interior = Low survival ability.

So their tanks can only take a hit. "If" their armor can hold against enemy shell. (Keep this in mind . If you want to use Tank armor as offensive role)

 

For Soviet top tier. Their MBTs are meh compare to NATO MBTs. Most of them got decent fire power , decent armor , some got ok mobility (T-80s). But that is. In turn they had worst tank layout (ammo rack ,cramp interior) , meh gun handling , bad reverse speed. 

Epically combine survival ability with bad reverse speed which get them kill the most .(in my case)

 

If you still want to climb to the Top tier. I'm suggest you stick to meduim tank and light tank tree around 7.0-8.7. (BMP-1 and BMP-2 are greats back up when you get uptier match)

but still you'll need to go pass Heavy tank line to get T-80U.

 

P.S. I'm having quite fun when grinding Soviet tree with T-44 and T-54 line up. (Might be that back then there was no IFVs or Armor cars running around this much plus recent Strv 103 ).

 

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BR compression is part of the problem, the bigger issue is lack of players.

Just look at how many places Gaijin splits players:

  1. AB Planes
  2. AB Tanks
  3. AB Ships
  4. RB Planes
  5. RB Tanks
  6. RB Ships
  7. Simulator battles
  8. Assault Air
  9. Assault Tank
  10. &Other events and tournaments

That's a lot of places to separate them, add in relatively early time of day and finding a match at certain BR takes a lot of time in AB and especially other modes.

Having only 30-50k players for all this IMO is just too little. There is also a lack of incentive to play the lesser vehicles, things are starting to devolve into only certain vehicles getting played because all the others are not worth it, they are not competitive or fun to use.

I remember when War Thunder had 70k and even passed 100k players online in-game, those were fun times.

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I am playing my Russian High Tier setup the last days to finalize the grind of the T-72A. Although I possess the Ka-50, Tunguska, Mig-19, BMP2 and T-55AM (also T-62 in my setup) it is very hard to counter the American versatility in vehicles. American players have by far the most vehicles that fit the meta. Every time you take one out of them the next appears which is almost as good as the one you knocked out. This is not biased talking, because I have also American, French, German and Italian High Tier setups (sometimes I lose 5 games in a row I switch to my American setup to grab a win). At the moment it is very demanding to play the Russians in High Tier, as one said here before, sometimes just the good Ka-50 players are carrying the Russian team. The grind therefore is also a pain in the A***. I grinded the medium tank line to get to the T-72 and have a lot of tanks to grind to get to the only competitive Russian medium at the moment, the T-80U... 

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On 13. januar 2020 at 14:23, ArthurWood said:
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I'll give you a 6/10 for the effort.

 

Personally I'll take with a big grain of doubt everything said about vehicles by someone who only plays AB where you have the pen indicators, UFO vehicles and all kinds of helping hands, crutches and other BS. RB is completely different from AB, from team composition (less fair than in AB), to unbalanced BS like extremely low tier thermals, to very significant differences in vehicle performance, turret traverses, etc.

On 13. januar 2020 at 15:08, Turenkarn said:

 

Hey I never said anything bad about the guns ballistic properties, or their shells, I only said the gun handling is very bad. However if you play AB you wouldn't know that, things are very different there, no wonder you have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention things like super-slow turret rotation on T-54s. Basically with AB you're playing in easy mode, when it comes to vehicle/gun handling.

 

Exactly. It's not even worth talking to him cause his perspective is completely skewed what with him only playing a mode that is made to make all vehicles as equal as possible and suppresses defficiencies and disadvantages that are obvious in RB.

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