Stridzvagn

Leopard L44 and AMX Super Battle Rating

8 hours ago, TheCloop123 said:

By your example, that would require Gaijin to separate who the 'average joe' player is. it would also mean no vehicle would ever get balanced by doing this.

Ehm. You dont have to separate "average Joe" when you are using average of a pool.

Lets say average Joe (AJ) has K/D 1 and W/R 50% while good player (GP) have K/D 2 and W/R 70%. 1 AJ and 1 GP will provide you with K/D of 1,5 and W/R of 60%, 2 AJ and 1 GP will mean K/D 1,33 and W/R 56,6%, on other hand 1 AJ and 2 GP give K/D 1,66 and W/R 63,3%. Hence large number of AJs is pulling average stats DOWN, while increased number of GP is pulling it up. Do we have an understanding how average works now? :B10:

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3 hours ago, SaekoB said:

Because there is a ocean of difference between the vehicles.

Here we go...

 

Quote

From one going 70km/h uphill on terrain,

It literally doesn't go faster than 50 on a shallow incline on Kursk. 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.478f66365ff8275bd8105c83

 

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while the others can't reach 45km/h on tarmac

Right...

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.f4aa454b045c9bf626293e14

 

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, to the almost 50 degrees/sec turret rotation, while others are stuck with 24 degrees/sec,

image.png.1369c737069edd1ff319fb1e62e9e6

Where's my 50°/s rotation speed?

 

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compsite armor

That doesn't cover any of the hull at all. And where it does cover at the turret, it cannot stop any APFSDS from its competition. Much useful, very wow.

 

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blow out panels

It's a nice gimmick. Doesn't often make a difference though. 

 

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and doing circles on the spot at 20km/h, by holding the A key etc. etc.

We done exaggerating yet?

 

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I find it funny, how US fanboys and fangirls ignore statistics whenever it suits them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

 

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Even the OF-40 MTCA is miles ahead compared to the Leopard L/44, Type 74G & AMX-30 Super, let alone the XM-1. 

Except it's not. It's somewhat more mobile with better gun handling, but loses out in penetration and has no thermals!

 

2 hours ago, SaekoB said:

I said numerous times that most 8.7 need to go to 9.0, but not until 10.0 vehicles like the Abrams aren't moved to 10.3, XM-1, OF-40 MTCA can play against those relatively well as they feature similar statistics

Really? So the XM1 and OF-40 MTCA feature "similar statistics" to the Leopard 2A5, M1A2, T-80U, Leclerc, etc? I really do hope you try this one.

 

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while the Leopard, Type 74, AMX-30 don't

Let's see... all of them get thermals.

The Leopard 1 L/44 shares the same gun as the Leopard 2K, which doesn't struggle against its competition 1.0 BR higher. Oh, and the Leopard 1 L/44 gets thermals while the 2K doesn't.

The Type 74 G/Kai is in the same boat with even more penetration and slightly better armor.

And the AMX-30 S gets the same penetration that the M1 and M1IP are oh so OP with at 10.0. 

Each of which are more mobile than the Chieftain Mk. 10, T-64A, T-64B, T-62M and T-72A that all exist beyond 9.0.

 

Yeah, I'm not feeling sympathy.

 

Quote

and we had the scenario already when the 105mm Abrams was released into the game at 9.0, none of those tanks stood a chance at it was a massacre, not enjoyable and almost not playable at all. 

So imagine what it's like being a 7.7-8.3 vehicle right now. Or hell, a non-premium 8.7!

 

Quote

But don't compare XM-1 & OF-40 MTCA to other 8.7s because they are not remotely similar. 

Except they are. The OF-40 MTCA's only difference is somewhat improved mobility and gun handling. The XM1's only difference to the OF-40 MTCA is that it gets thermals. 

Yet the Leopard 1 L/44, Type 74 G, and AMX-30 S each get thermals, are still plenty mobile (noticeably better than the likes of the T-55AM, RISE, Shot Kal, Chieftain, etc.), and get ridiculous firepower that massively outmatches any of its competition. It goes without saying they completely clap 8.7. And your justification for keeping them there and seal clubbing is that at 9.0, they might come across a big scary Abrumz one in every 10 games. Give me a break.

 

You want to talk about tanks that suffer at that BR? Take a good look at RISE and T-55AM. Imagine sharing a BR with them.

 

Edited by ANDROMADA
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3 hours ago, SaekoB said:

Because there is a ocean of difference between the vehicles. From one going 70km/h uphill on terrain, while the others can't reach 45km/h on tarmac, to the almost 50 degrees/sec turret rotation, while others are stuck with 24 degrees/sec, to general gun handling, in case of the XM-1, compsite armor, blow out panels, and doing circles on the spot at 20km/h, by holding the A key etc. etc. I find it funny, how US fanboys and fangirls ignore statistics whenever it suits them. Even the OF-40 MTCA is miles ahead compared to the Leopard L/44, Type 74G & AMX-30 Super, let alone the XM-1.

 

Woah, I agree with it moving to 9.3, but virtually everything you claim here is complete nonsense.

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8 minutes ago, BlazeOfJoy said:

Oh yes please lets move AMX-30 Super to 10.0. Hell why stop there? Lets move all French Tier VI to 10.3 because termals and so OP dart.

Hyperbole, nice, really helps your argument. 

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8 hours ago, LahvanCz said:

Ehm. You dont have to separate "average Joe" when you are using average of a pool.

Lets say average Joe (AJ) has K/D 1 and W/R 50% while good player (GP) have K/D 2 and W/R 70%. 1 AJ and 1 GP will provide you with K/D of 1,5 and W/R of 60%, 2 AJ and 1 GP will mean K/D 1,33 and W/R 56,6%, on other hand 1 AJ and 2 GP give K/D 1,66 and W/R 63,3%. Hence large number of AJs is pulling average stats DOWN, while increased number of GP is pulling it up. Do we have an understanding how average works now? :B10:

You might want to read a little harder......... you literally tried saying Italy/France showed higher KDR because they 'are picked up' by mostly veteran players. firstly you have zero information on that, secondly AS I SAID gaijin would need to separate good and bad stats from the data set to determine what you explained about KDR figures with Italy and France being played mostly by Veteran players. 

 

I know how averages work.......... if you have a ratio of 75%-25% and 75% being Veteran players and 25% being Average players, because you have a higher ratio of Veteran stats over average player stats, the vehicles average would still be higher than the average stats of the actual 25% who are a part of the average player pool in that vehicle. so when you say Italy and France have higher KDR's because they are mostly played by Vets then that literally means they statistically would have higher stats over the 'average baseline' meaning the vehicle is over performing. I hope you understand how averages work now, and unless you have a near 50/50 ratio of 'skill' Averages can be higher or lower depending on who plays the vehicle (which is why Gaijin uses all stats alike)

 

If gaijin took only newbie stats for vehicles, then a lot of vehicles seriously would never have moved BR's because they would not have a 'true' representation of how a vehicle performs if lets say all newbie players did bad in said vehicle. so your KDR point simple proved my point, if players can show that the vehicle is capable of standing its ground against the spam of XM1's then it really proves the point that these vehicles are still equal to or better regardless of who plays it. 

 

Ill give you an example so you understand better:

Is a racing car bad if its driven by a bad race driver? no its not. but what we do know is, its impossible to determine the true performance of the vehicle unless someone better plays and utilises every aspect of the vehicle to show its (true performance) the same principle applies with tanks. if anything having Veteran players play the vehicle is good because it shows its 'true' capabilities, capabilities that might not be shown with 'newbie stats' hence my point (they have to use all stats alike)

 

So when you tried to say Italy and France have higher KDR because they are played by mostly Veteran players, it means little to the context because Gaijin still would have to take all stats alike to determine its 'true average performance' or whatever they have as an average baseline and if any vehicle is either above or below that baseline they have set.

Edited by TheCloop123
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How about we wait and see if they need a Br increase like we do for every vehicle? The XM-1 has been under tiered since for awhile and only just got moved up.

 

German/Italian 8.7 teams don’t seem to be doing much better.

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35 minutes ago, *CodyBlues said:

How about we wait and see if they need a Br increase like we do for every vehicle? The XM-1 has been under tiered since for awhile and only just got moved up.

 

German/Italian 8.7 teams don’t seem to be doing much better.

?????? they still perform equal to the XM1 in KDR lol if not better, these have been out for the best part of 12 months+ and you propose to 'wait' more......... sorry but 7.7 and 8.0 players have had enough of getting rekt by premium tanks that are easily 9.0 to 9.3 Super and Type 74G are literally on par right now to the XM1 in terms of KDR lol

Edited by TheCloop123
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3 hours ago, BlazeOfJoy said:

Oh yes please lets move AMX-30 Super to 10.0. Hell why stop there? Lets move all French Tier VI to 10.3 because termals and so OP dart.

Well I'd sort the premiums like this (with 0.3 BR difference)

T-55AM-1 < Type 74G / Leopard A1A1 L44 <(=) OF 40 MTCA < AMX 30 Super < XM-1

 

Let's say top tier moves to 11.0 and all current 10.0 to 10.7.

Then:

T-55AM-1 9.0 (worst in almost all categories but has some protection against CE and can fire ATGMs and APHE)

Leopard L44 / Type 74G 9.3 (worse gun handling and mobility (partially bugged transmission))

OF 40 MTCA 9.3 (gun handling, mobility)

AMX 30 Super 9.7 (gun handling, mobility, thermals)

 

Is that fair?

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10 hours ago, ANDROMADA said:

Here we go...

 

It literally doesn't go faster than 50 on a shallow incline on Kursk. 

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.478f66365ff8275bd8105c83

 

Right...

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.f4aa454b045c9bf626293e14

 

image.png.1369c737069edd1ff319fb1e62e9e6

Where's my 50°/s rotation speed?

 

That doesn't cover any of the hull at all. And where it does cover at the turret, it cannot stop any APFSDS from its competition. Much useful, very wow.

 

It's a nice gimmick. Doesn't often make a difference though. 

 

We done exaggerating yet?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

 

Except it's not. It's somewhat more mobile with better gun handling, but loses out in penetration and has no thermals!

 

Really? So the XM1 and OF-40 MTCA feature "similar statistics" to the Leopard 2A5, M1A2, T-80U, Leclerc, etc? I really do hope you try this one.

 

Let's see... all of them get thermals.

The Leopard 1 L/44 shares the same gun as the Leopard 2K, which doesn't struggle against its competition 1.0 BR higher. Oh, and the Leopard 1 L/44 gets thermals while the 2K doesn't.

The Type 74 G/Kai is in the same boat with even more penetration and slightly better armor.

And the AMX-30 S gets the same penetration that the M1 and M1IP are oh so OP with at 10.0. 

Each of which are more mobile than the Chieftain Mk. 10, T-64A, T-64B, T-62M and T-72A that all exist beyond 9.0.

 

Yeah, I'm not feeling sympathy.

 

So imagine what it's like being a 7.7-8.3 vehicle right now. Or hell, a non-premium 8.7!

 

Except they are. The OF-40 MTCA's only difference is somewhat improved mobility and gun handling. The XM1's only difference to the OF-40 MTCA is that it gets thermals. 

Yet the Leopard 1 L/44, Type 74 G, and AMX-30 S each get thermals, are still plenty mobile (noticeably better than the likes of the T-55AM, RISE, Shot Kal, Chieftain, etc.), and get ridiculous firepower that massively outmatches any of its competition. It goes without saying they completely clap 8.7. And your justification for keeping them there and seal clubbing is that at 9.0, they might come across a big scary Abrumz one in every 10 games. Give me a break.

 

You want to talk about tanks that suffer at that BR? Take a good look at RISE and T-55AM. Imagine sharing a BR with them.

 

 

As you say, how about you give us a break by listing uncrewed/unmanned tanks and present them as facts?

Let me fix that for you;

 

tanks.thumb.png.e188f101604789ac8dc5bba0 

 

Oh, the last one is a Type 74G without crew, so let's use that when comparing tanks from now on according to  your rule book. Also I think anyone not fanboying over factions can clearly see which tanks are superior and which are not in the above image. 

 

Honestly, I'm done with this discussion, the genuine tries to manipulate your wait through discussions is sickening, and it's not just you, it's pretty much the majority of US fans. 

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59 minutes ago, SaekoB said:

 

As you say, how about you give us a break by listing uncrewed/unmanned tanks and present them as facts?

Let me fix that for you;

 

tanks.thumb.png.e188f101604789ac8dc5bba0 

 

Oh, the last one is a Type 74G without crew, so let's use that when comparing tanks from now on according to  your rule book.

Every statcard I use is going to be without a crew. Because I do not own all of these prems, and even if I did, I do not have equal level crews across all nations. It is a way to keep the comparisons accurate. Naturally, you can't comprehend that it seems.

 

59 minutes ago, SaekoB said:

Also I think anyone not fanboying over factions can clearly see which tanks are superior and which are not in the above image. 

Nice hasty generalization. Don't even mention their ammunition, thermals, or their competition at their own BR. 

 

59 minutes ago, SaekoB said:

Honestly, I'm done with this discussion, the genuine tries to manipulate your wait through discussions is sickening, and it's not just you, it's pretty much the majority of US fans. 

You're not getting refuted because of fanboys.

You're getting refuted because... you're... wrong.

 

Naturally, you've missed the entire point of this discussion. The Leopard 1 L/44, Type 74 G, and AMX-30 S are completely overpowered at 8.7 and there is no excuse to keep them there.

 

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You'll have a hard time convincing me that the L/44 and Type 74 should be the same BR as the MBT-70s

AMX-30 Super should have gone up with the OF-40 MTCA, it's better and probably more fake

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1 hour ago, *RAazzy91 said:

You'll have a hard time convincing me that the L/44 and Type 74 should be the same BR as the MBT-70s

AMX-30 Super should have gone up with the OF-40 MTCA, it's better and probably more fake

Why? I have the L/44 and the MBT-70 and I'd rather play the L/44 9 times out of 10. 

It should be 9.0 tbh, it has no business seeing 7.7 vehicles.

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2 hours ago, *RAazzy91 said:

You'll have a hard time convincing me that the L/44 and Type 74 should be the same BR as the MBT-70s

You'll have a harder time convincing me that the L/44 and Type 74 should be the same BR as the T-55AM and RISE.

 

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4 hours ago, *RAazzy91 said:

You'll have a hard time convincing me that the L/44 and Type 74 should be the same BR as the MBT-70s

AMX-30 Super should have gone up with the OF-40 MTCA, it's better and probably more fake

oh please really....... L44 might be a stretch looking at the stats however Type 74G is literally performing equal to the AMX30 Super in KDR and actually has higher winrates........ I mean really, your struggling to figure that one out?

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Why are you giving me the Type 74s W/R when the tank has split MM, it can end up on US or Ger teams and I doubt there are full teams of Type 74s

 

 

Regardless of player performance the vehicle falls short of the actual performance of the AMX-30 Super in regards of hard stats of mobility and gun handling, both the L/44 and Type 74 fall short in hard stats to the MBT-70

 

irregardless of whether the tanks [L/44/74G] move up, they shouldn't be the same BR as the MBT-70

 

If you want to be pedantic the M60 RISE and Chieftain Mk.5 have vastly higher win rates on TS than the Type 74, I guess we better uptier these seal clubbers immediately :dntknw:

Edited by *RAazzy91
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1 hour ago, *RAazzy91 said:

Regardless of player performance the vehicle falls short of the actual performance of the AMX-30 Super in regards of hard stats of mobility and gun handling, both the L/44 and Type 74 fall short in hard stats to the MBT-70

funny how MBT-70 actually has the lower stats out of the 3........ KDR is literally lower than Super/74G, winrates are only as high because of XM1 carrying it up lol and I might mention winrates are now in decline from 70%+ to currently 66% in the space of what 2 days already lol.

 

ignore facts all you want, Type 74G is literally equal to the Super in every way, and stats dont lie. but trying to say MBT-70 is better is actually funny in every way.

 

Want to me to explain why the MBT-70 is as bad as it actually is? it ONLY HAS 3 CREW and you can literally pen the left side of turret and delete 2 of them, oh guess what? thats an OHK and it also has a stupidly awful ATGM grind to go through..... and trash armour that protects against nothing at 9.0 so yh sure MBT-70 is 'better' otherwise stats would show that when they havent for nearly 10 months. and dont even get me started on the XM803 which shows even worse stats to the MBT-70 and thats 9.0..... 

 

the only good thing about MBT-70 is the mobility which is easily matched by both the 74G and Super.

Edited by TheCloop123
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All this jibber jabber about what should be at what BR is pointless, when your too wrapped up in xxxx stats, and can't see the real problem which is the BR compression and Gaijins poor decisions on which vehicle variants to compare with each other (for the purpose of 8.7-9.0 prems) when they were originally released when you consider the mechanics now present in the game.

 

Gaijins release of thermal imaging is what really messed up the BR's from 8.0 - 9.0 as there is literally no hiding from it. That combined with the poor design of every map when you begin to see the exploitable sight lines and capability of the ammunition at these BR's. 

 

Take the T55AM-1 for example (the now deemed worse BR 8.7 prem), I was fine with it fighting XM1's and Leo1A1(L44)'s etc prior to the release of thermal imaging and used to play it regularly. It was fun to be the underdog fighting the waves and waves of XM1's and Leo1A1(L44)'s. Often got called a hacker, which made me smile, when a level 5 player uses 3 backups in an XM1 to get killed by me all 4 times.

Sadly with the release of thermals that all changed... and the same can be said for every vehicle down to BR 7.7 too. All of a sudden their entire team almost can spot you from the otherside of the very badly (understatement of the century) designed maps and you get OS without even being able to spot your assailant. I pretty much stopped playing it after that as the once slightly tilted (in the XM1's / Leo L44's etc favour) playing field was now completley upside xxxx down.

 

Personally I agree with the XM-1 being placed at BR 9.3 but to say it is a comparable vehicle to that of the AMX-30 Super, Leo1a1(L44), Type 74G despite them being thermally equipped also is laughable.

 

However, to move the XM-1 to BR 9.3 and leave the remaining thermal equipped premiums at BR 8.7 is also a joke. Leaving the Leo1A1(L44) etc and the T55AM-1 etc at the same BR is nonsense.

 

AMX-30 Super, Leo1a1(L44) and Type 74G should be moved to BR 9.0.

 

The OF-40 (MTCA) is fine where it is despite its lack of thermals.

 

All these micro BR moves though are all still pointless considering +/- 1.0 BR uptier/downtier potential due to the overly compressed BR's.

    

 

  

Edited by _Fear_Naught_
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1 minute ago, _Fear_Naught_ said:

Personally I agree with the XM-1 being placed at BR 9.3 but to say it is a comparable vehicle to that of the AMX-30 Super, Leo1a1(L44), Type 74G despite them being thermally equipped also is laughable.

Except BR is a value given to a vehicle based on 'performance' and performance wise they are comparable.......

 

Paper stats yes, they are not comparable. but sadly BR is not just for 'paper performance' its also for the 'actual' performance of a vehicle.

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7 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

funny how MBT-70 actually has the lower stats out of the 3........ KDR is literally lower than both of those and winrates are only as high because of XM1 carrying it up lol and I might mention winrates are now in decline from 70%+ to currently 66% in the space of what 2 days already lol.

 

woah that's weird

not so long ago you were saying the XM-1 wasn't the issue at this BR now you're acknowledging it was uplifting every US vehicle around it

 

how convenient

7 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

ignore facts all you want, Type 74G is literally equal to the Super in every way

 

Why do you say I ignore facts and spout something that's demonstrably untrue in the same sentence

 

7 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

, and stats dont lie. but trying to say MBT-70 is better is actually funny in every way.

 

Because it is, positioning and reactionary ability is how WT RB works and while things come close nothing beats MBT-70s

7 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

Want to me to explain why the MBT-70 is as bad as it actually is? it ONLY HAS 3 CREW and you can literally pen the left side of turret and delete 2 of them, oh guess what? thats an OHK and it also has a stupidly awful ATGM grind to go through..... and trash armour that protects against nothing at 9.0 so yh sure MBT-70 is 'better' otherwise stats would show that when they havent for nearly 10 months. and dont even get me started on the XM803 which shows even worse stats to the MBT-70 and thats 9.0..... 

 

- Yes it's the MBT-70s 1 chronic flaw, tanks have them

- Since when do we compare stock grinds when comparing vehicle performance

- Compared to the good armour of... what exactly?

 

7 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

 

the only good thing about MBT-70 is the mobility which is easily matched by both the 74G and Super.

 

Why do you say I ignore facts and spout something that's- you know what nevermind

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10 hours ago, TheCloop123 said:

?????? they still perform equal to the XM1 in KDR lol if not better, these have been out for the best part of 12 months+ and you propose to 'wait' more......... sorry but 7.7 and 8.0 players have had enough of getting rekt by premium tanks that are easily 9.0 to 9.3 Super and Type 74G are literally on par right now to the XM1 in terms of KDR lol

The W/L is already awful for the GER/IT side, its only going to drop further if the only up these vehicles.

 

The XM-1 could easily go to 9.7 and still do well. I’d really like to see the 2K get moved down to 9.0-9.3 and see the reaction.

 

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2 minutes ago, *CodyBlues said:

The W/L is already awful for the GER/IT side, its only going to drop further if the only up these vehicles.

 

The XM-1 could easily go to 9.7 and still do well. I’d really like to see the 2K get moved down to 9.0-9.3 and see the reaction.

 

 

I am in complete agreement that the Leo 2K should be dropped to 9.3. Even 9.0 with a change to its available ammunition.

 

20 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

Except BR is a value given to a vehicle based on 'performance' and performance wise they are comparable.......

 

Paper stats yes, they are not comparable. but sadly BR is not just for 'paper performance' its also for the 'actual' performance of a vehicle.

 

What twaddle... A vehicles "paper stats" as you put it, are the basis for its performance stats. The two are connected. If a vehicle has better "paper stats" than another then its "actual performance stats" despite a different set of variables between the two vehicles are going to be better... So regardless of your point the vehicles are not comparable.

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2 hours ago, *CodyBlues said:

 

The XM-1 could easily go to 9.7 and still do well. I’d really like to see the 2K get moved down to 9.0-9.3 and see the reaction.

Leopard 2K was first introduced at 8.7 and it was a mess. 7.7-8.7 one would either play Germans or lose.

XM-1 should be at 9.7 but also with correct composites and M774(?).

Gaijin is likely reluctant to uptier / properly balance the 8.7 premiums and XM-1 since they are so lucrative p2w vehicles.

Which is why I don't understand why only the MTCA got moved up..

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I feel if we remove the XM-1 from the discussion, because it seems to trigger a lot of players, we can look at the vehicles the 8.7 prems face as well as the vehicle they share a BR with and EASILY deduce that most of them deserve an uptier to 9.0. 

 

The only one that should reasonably be at the same BR is the T-55AM, and I think even the Sho't Kal could go down, but that's another discussion. 

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Leopard 1A1 L44 and AMX Super have low winrates and low K/D ratios on Thunderskill. They aren't spammed like the XM-1s either. Not even remotely. 

 

Theres no need to uptier them. Just because the XM-1 is like a modern day MBT, other premiums require no uptier. Leopards have no armor, very low survivalbility (ammo racks everywhere), almost no acceleration + superslow gunhandling. Leo 1 chassis' have no buisiness fighting 10.0's. They might be 9.0 worthy if they'd reach their max speed of 65 km/h as its stated on their statcard. Another problem are the lineups. There are no other 9.0 vehicles you can use to make a working lineup. 

 

It was at BR 9.0 at release and had winrates below 20% vs. M1's and stuff. Theres no point to up its BR again. Especially not for a slow vehicle which can be frontally ammoracked by even SPAA vehicles.

 

Btw: XM-1's are clearly better than any 9.7 MBTs. Thermal view, safe ammo storage, survivalbility, high speed, excellent gun handling.  Its far better than any Leopard 2k, which has ammo stored everywhere in its hull and has NO thermal vierw. If 2k's are at 9.7, XM-1 have to be at 10.0.

 

XM-1 are like modern day MBTs, they have to be at 10.0! 9.3 is still a joke. It just creates a new freedom bubble at BR 9.3, which sucks everyone from 8.3 and higher into their matches. This tank has better characteristics than other 9.7's. I just don't understand why US always get that super low BRs for their stuff.

 

 

Edited by Thodin
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