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Hello, 

          I am starting this thread to bring up the topic of sights and parallax in Sim. Parallax in the context of tanks is the angle between the LOS (Line of sight) and LOF (Line of fire). Whilst I appreciate that you have cottoned on to the fact that it exists and have implemented it, tanks are boresighted  and that effect is negligible past a few hundred metres. I certainly don't expect to see it being a big issue towards the top tiers as tanks of that era are not only boresighted, but they have clever FCS (fire control systems) which negate it further. 

I am a serving crewman on Challenger 2 and there are 3 sights which can be used in conjunction with the main armament. These are the GPS (gunner's primary sight) which sits on the right hand side of the turret, right of the GUVP and forward of the CPS. Second up we have the CPS which is the aforementioned commander's periscope sight, usually used for scanning for targets and laying the gunner onto them, but the commander has his own fire control handle known as the CCH with which he can claim targets and fire himself. Lastly you have the GAS (gunner's auxiliary sight) which is recessed on the right hand side of the L30A1 and it is not only the tanks last sight incase all else fails, but it is also used as part of the boresighting system and to frequently "MRS" when stationary to make sure the boresight hasn't been lost. 

 

The reality is that you would see a bit of parallax at a couple of hundred metres, anything over 400 and you're totally fine but between the boresighting done and the FCS working away all the time, you wouldn't see anything too crazy unless you were under 100m away. 

 

Now, why am I bringing this up, you ask. Well it has come to my attention that your parallax seems to go on indefinitely. I have just unlocked the Leopard 2K the other day and today I am taking it out for the first time in Sim battles. I am seeing rounds drop short on targets that are 200-300 metres away, even when I range at 600m. Also, when they come at me up closer, even aiming off high and right, the rounds don't seem to be going where they ought to be. The same issue is true of the XM-1 I purchased at great expense to try and alleviate my US grind at top tier and that I am more annoyed about as that was £40 odd. I know there are people here who will have come across some of their later tanks, with their higher repair costs who know exactly what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, with my T-80s, T-64s and T-72, its as if you've set the sight to go off as their GAS or whatever they decided to call it. 

Now, its not all doom and gloom and I get parallax exists but I think this is something that really ought to be addressed. It is great when you're up close to terrain, fire and realise you didn't have muzzle clearance, honestly, as much as I kick myself if I do it, THAT is translated very well over from reality, but as I said, when firing at targets more than a few hundred metres out, the parallax is all but gone. 

 

Please don't chin this post off, I'd really like someone to acknowledge it because it really is an important issue. 

 

p.s. sweet update by the way, loving the visuals especially and the fact that ranging now brings the gun onto that range as that's also a real thing. 

 

Ollie 

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What if there was a key or option in the controls tht allowed the player to zero in the parallax for a certain range. For ex, u use rangefinder n detect a target 1050m away, so u set the sight distance for 1km but using a separate key or something u also zero in the gun and sight to eliminate parallax for the same range (1km). Thoughts?

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I always thought that the parallax error was exaggerated in game, and some tanks simply act like if their guns are missing boresight adjustment.

 

I think that some user like this "feature" because it adds some artificial difficult to the game mechanic, but in my opinion this has nothing to do with simulation, this is just simulating a mistake in boresight.

 

As a former FH70 artillery officer I never fired with direct aiming, just in practice and the parallax error wasn't even considered , but I don't think that in RL a machine that doesn't hit where you are aiming could be tolerated.

 

I think that the new FCS feature that adds the elevation after using the laser rangefinder is a good step toward a fully simulated modern FCS, but again someone dislike it, tastes are tastes...

Edited by Rufus368
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8 hours ago, FrobroSwagginz said:

What if there was a key or option in the controls tht allowed the player to zero in the parallax for a certain range. For ex, u use rangefinder n detect a target 1050m away, so u set the sight distance for 1km but using a separate key or something u also zero in the gun and sight to eliminate parallax for the same range (1km). Thoughts?

 

Well I mean that would be better than nothing. In reality its the FCS which makes corrections as you boresight prior to anticipated firing, say, before a range package. This consists of a number of things using both the MRS and the LRF in conjunction with witness screens at 1km distance for Challenger 2 which allow you to boresight and also correct any sight drift on the GPS as it can rotate slightly within its sighthood, probably so the FCS can move it when making its own corrections. For the record, I don't mind a bit of parallax or indeed variation, but on some tanks I feel its so pronounced that it's putting them at a considerable disadvantage. 

 

38 minutes ago, Rufus368 said:

I always thought that the parallax error was exaggerated in game, and some tanks simply act like if their guns are missing boresight adjustment.

 

I think that some user like this "feature" because it adds some artificial difficult to the game mechanic, but in my opinion this has nothing to do with simulation, this is just simulating a mistake in boresight.

 

As a former FH70 artillery officer I never fired with direct aiming, just in practice and the parallax error wasn't even considered , but I don't think that in RL a machine that doesn't hit where you are aiming could be tolerated.

 

I think that the new FCS feature that adds the elevation after using the laser rangefinder is a good step toward a fully simulated modern FCS, but again someone dislike it, tastes are tastes...

 

Yeah you're right, it is massively exaggerated. Even without boresighting or an FCS you'd struggle to be as wide off the mark as something like the XM-1 in game. The only way I could imagine seeing it that far off is if I was driving through a dense wood and had a hefty barrel strike. 

 

I like a bit of difficulty and I imagine others do too. Sim can be a bit elitist in than sense but this is War Thunder, not Steel Beasts pro (which I also have). However my big bug bear with this is that some tanks have barely any either because their sights are mounted closer to the gun or because their auxiliary sight is being used in place. For instance, both my T-80s and T-64s have the tiniest amount of parallax and therefore even at great range, I can quickly put the sight onto centre of mass (I can lase but also spend alot of time adjusting range when driving about with 2 side buttons on my mouse) and I can make a tiny adjustment and fire and the target is struck. With the XM-1 and slightly lesser extent the Leopard 2K as well as other tanks across all the trees I use, we are talking about aiming off a large amount both on the horizontal an vertical planes. Last night I partially remedied this by setting range on the Leopard 2K to 1200 (I decided to try it as if you fire off default on Challenger 2 the range will be 1200) and I found that now I was able to hit closer targets higher up, rather than their running gear etc. However, this range didn't work as well for HEAT-FS and it still wasn't as straight forward as using my Soviet T-series. 

 

I agree the new FCS feature is a step forward, I hadn't seen the new update coming as I've been quite busy since getting back from a deployment but in the past it was something I always wondered, however it didn't bother me too much as I was usually able to accurately estimate the range even without LRF, scoring hits and where I wasn't, the first round was usually enough to allow me to bracket with the 2nd round usually meeting its mark. But yeah, was really impressed that they'd brought that in, tried it out on the firing range and my CR2 engagements immediately felt more realistic.                                                                

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21 hours ago, Rufus368 said:

I always thought that the parallax error was exaggerated in game, and some tanks simply act like if their guns are missing boresight adjustment.

Yes, if you go into a test battle and fire at something at a known range you’ll notice the round lands metres down + left/right of where it ought to have landed. Working backwards you realise the sight would have to be on a submarine-like periscope, extending above the tank if this was pure parallax.

21 hours ago, Rufus368 said:

 

I think that some user like this "feature" because it adds some artificial difficult to the game mechanic, but in my opinion this has nothing to do with simulation, this is just simulating a mistake in boresight.

Indeed, it’s just an arcade-like difficulty mechanic, with no place in a sim.  If there is any reason for it beyond laziness and incompetence, that’ll be it, I suspect. Ironic that the modern tanks, which, with complex FCS, should be least affected, are generally more handicapped that the older WW2 tanks.

 

For modern tanks a better simulation of reality would be to simply use the RB boresight sights. Not a perfect simulation, but closer than the silly, simplistic, rigid and wrong interpretation currently implemented.

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On 18/12/2019 at 00:57, Hussar91 said:

Hello, 

          I am starting this thread to bring up the topic of sights and parallax in Sim. Parallax in the context of tanks is the angle between the LOS (Line of sight) and LOF (Line of fire). Whilst I appreciate that you have cottoned on to the fact that it exists and have implemented it, tanks are boresighted  and that effect is negligible past a few hundred metres. I certainly don't expect to see it being a big issue towards the top tiers as tanks of that era are not only boresighted, but they have clever FCS (fire control systems) which negate it further. 
….

 

Post a suggestion.

It's a lot of effort for little chance of reward but I don't think the devs or mods read this Sim section (apart from Sim air where there's some interaction with mods who are also players).

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On 19/12/2019 at 09:48, Drusas said:

 

Post a suggestion.

It's a lot of effort for little chance of reward but I don't think the devs or mods read this Sim section (apart from Sim air where there's some interaction with mods who are also players).

 

Roger, well bottom line up front is that my suggestion is to change the currently broken system and either do away with parallax completely (not ideal), or to implement it closer to how it is in real life (ideal). Anyone could come out and just say that mate but then people could equally say "what do you know?" and chin me off. I offered the answer to that question up front to head any naysayers off. If there is one thing I know in this world, its tanks, because they are quite literally my life. I spend 8-10 hours with them 5 days a week and have done so for a great many years. 

 

It's a shame that the Devs don't bother coming to this section of the forums, the people who play Sim are typically the most die hard, tend to spend a fair bit of money and will cling to this game long after others have put it down in favour of the next new thing. I do however have access to a number of the big name Youtubers so there is always that option to get them to talk to Gaijin reference the matter. Maybe they'll fix it, maybe they won't. I'm not putting them down, I love the game, clearly I do, otherwise I wouldn't be on here trying to help them make a good game better.

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  • 3 months later...
On 18/12/2019 at 05:20, FrobroSwagginz said:

What if there was a key or option in the controls tht allowed the player to zero in the parallax for a certain range. For ex, u use rangefinder n detect a target 1050m away, so u set the sight distance for 1km but using a separate key or something u also zero in the gun and sight to eliminate parallax for the same range (1km). Thoughts?

So after some years, they finally add it :D

 

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  • 8 months later...

War Thunder "Viking Fury" - Changelog - Updates Information (Read Only) - War Thunder - Official Forum

On most ground vehicles when using the camera from tank gunner sight, the reduction of the sight and the main gun axes has been implemented. Depending on the ballistics of guns and battle ranges the following values of reduction of the sight have been added:

  • 400m for anti-tank cannons with a calibre of less than 45mm plus 75mm for short-barreled cannons which are typical for vehicles of rank I.
  • 800m for anti-tank cannons with a calibre of 50mm or higher.
  • 1200m for cannons with shells in addition to various versions of the L7,CN-105-F1, L74 and 120 mm L1A2 cannons.

 

 

This doesn't appear to be working properly any more.

Tried it in the Test range on multiple tanks where the sight and gun have significant vertical and horizontal offset.

Tried Type 61, Panther II, Ho Ri Prod and US M47 and at no distances can I get the shell to hit at where the cross hair is pointing. AFAIK these should all be bore sighted for 800m.

 

Tanks with LRF may not be affected. Leo 2A4 with HEAT worked fine.

 

On the PzIV F1 when I move to within 400m of the T-34 I still have to aim to the left to hit the center of the UFP. The shell should land on the vertical targeting line at 400m as this is the set bore sight distance for the short 75mm.

 

Appreciate it if anyone could test and verify if I'm mistaken or not.

 

 

Edited by Drusas
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10 minutes ago, Drusas said:

War Thunder "Viking Fury" - Changelog - Updates Information (Read Only) - War Thunder - Official Forum

On most ground vehicles when using the camera from tank gunner sight, the reduction of the sight and the main gun axes has been implemented. Depending on the ballistics of guns and battle ranges the following values of reduction of the sight have been added:

  • 400m for anti-tank cannons with a calibre of less than 45mm plus 75mm for short-barreled cannons which are typical for vehicles of rank I.
  • 800m for anti-tank cannons with a calibre of 50mm or higher.
  • 1200m for cannons with shells in addition to various versions of the L7,CN-105-F1, L74 and 120 mm L1A2 cannons.

 

 

This doesn't appear to be working properly any more.

Tried it in the Test range on multiple tanks where the sight and gun have significant vertical and horizontal offset.

Tried Type 61, Panther II, Ho Ri Prod and US M47 and at no distances can I get the shell to hit at where the cross hair is pointing. AFAIK these should all be bore sighted for 800m.

 

Tanks with LRF may not be affected. Leo 2A4 with HEAT worked fine.

 

Appreciate it if anyone could test and verify if I'm mistaken or not.

 

image.thumb.png.b5a2adcb8948c6c111e1bdb0

I just tried it with a 75mm Sherman, M47 and type 61 and it seems fine to me. The shells clearly cross the aiming reticle, and lands about where I'm aiming at boresighted range (taking into account dispersion, it seems pretty fine).

Edited by FouManchou
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11 minutes ago, FouManchou said:

I just tried it with a 75mm Sherman, M47 and type 61 and it seems fine to me. The shells clearly crosses the aiming reticle, and lands about where I'm aiming at boresighted range (taking into account dispersion, it seems pretty fine).

 

Strange. Have I accidentally somehow disabled bore sight setting or something?

 

If I hit past the boresight range the shell should hit on the other side of the vertical line from the gunsight. This is not happening.

So what I should see with a gun with 800m bore sight is. Shell hits for example left of vertical line at 400m. On the vertical line at 800m and to the right of the vertical line at 1200m.

This is what used to happen but is not happening for me with any guns now except possibly high tier tanks with LRF.

 

image.thumb.png.b30bf963e3795143ae54236e

 

image.thumb.png.2558515c530a130dbd2c9a39

Edited by Drusas
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8 minutes ago, FouManchou said:

I tried it again with a Hetzer and the trajectory was as expected from an 800m boresight :dntknw:

 

I figured it out. It's the sight distance control. When I scroll down the horizontal aiming line to set the range it glitches the sight. I can see it visibly twitch and this seems to deactivate or mess with the bore sighting.

 

If I don't scroll the horizontal aiming line and merely lift to the correct range the round hits on the vertical aiming line and range marker line at the boresight set range.

 

I think this is a bug or a new "feature".

 

Thanks for assistance Fou.

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On 20/12/2020 at 11:21, Drusas said:

 

I figured it out. It's the sight distance control. When I scroll down the horizontal aiming line to set the range it glitches the sight. I can see it visibly twitch and this seems to deactivate or mess with the bore sighting.

 

If I don't scroll the horizontal aiming line and merely lift to the correct range the round hits on the vertical aiming line and range marker line at the boresight set range.

 

I think this is a bug or a new "feature".

 

Thanks for assistance Fou.

 

Thank you very much for posting this!

 

I play RB, but since Gaijin seems to have gone back to "smokeless powder", I'm interested in using the gunner sight camera again in RB...I like watching the shell fly toward the target :B10:

 

This new bug was very frustrating. I've disabled sight distance control for now.

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