jackTIGR

So, where is the T-90A or, better yet, T-90MS or 90M? Or T-72B?

Pretty much what the title says. I remember many consoling themselves that hopefully 1.95 will include a vehicle that would make an attempt at putting USSR somewhere close to being competitive, what with 1.89, 1.91 and 1.95 being disappointments, now it seems Gaijin is proving me right that they have left USSR to die. It isn't getting even a single air, ground or naval vehicle, NOTHING at all, in 1.95... How is everyone else thinking though? Optimistic that maybe things will change? Or pessimistic?

Edited by jackTIGR
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4 minutes ago, *RAazzy91 said:

Why would a tank even less suited to the meta than the T-80U make Russia competitive

 

Read more carefully

 

" an attempt at putting USSR somewhere close to being competitive " =/= competitive

 

But it's more or less about a half-arsed pat on the head like you would to a little kid or a dog in the style "oh don't worry, we haven't thrown the tree in the bin"

Edited by jackTIGR
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That was my biggest disappointment with this patch. And it baffles me that Gj actively decided not to introduce T-90A because they had a fully functional 3d model for many years. 

 

And yes, i argue that if the current "unofficial 10.7" tanks don´t receive new and better shells, then the T-90A would be very competitive.     

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Including T-90A would've been like:
"Oh, don't worry, we haven't forgotten the oldest tree in the game. I mean, we are deep in catering to the NATO fanbase, but here you are, a token tank that we've had finished for 3 years but haven't launched cause reasons, so you don't feel rightfully ignored and slighted. Now go away so we can dedicate ourselves to NATO and milking even more money with overpowered NATO premium tanks."

 

Vs what Gaijin HAS been doing:
"Go away, we don't care about USSR, you and it are just an annoyance. There is no real money in Soviet tree and that is all we are after. We don't really care about our own country, we embraced capitalism to the fullest, so GIVE US YOUR MONEY. Stop bugging us and accept that we and our most cherished players want you as nothing more than nerfed practice targets. But, hey, on the other side, there's plenty of shiny and nice new tanks on NATO that you can play with! Come to the Dar... er, Light side, we have cookies and unbalanced trees!"

 

Oh, yeah, still no Soviet jet CAS either I see. No Soviet plane with AGMs. or 4.7-8.0 SPAA. Or 5.3-8.0 CAS. Or IL-2/10 PTABs. Or BMP-3 BR and ATGM reload reduction.

 

But we get SWEDEN!!! YAY!!! A nation and military that were a gamechanger in wars and politics of 20th century!!! The nation that won the WW2 and forced Germany to surrender. A new tree that will have plenty of bugs, imbalance and other issues; instead of age old problems getting fixed. And we can't forget new premium tanks and planes, what would we EVER do without them?

^ just so there are no misunderstandings, the last part was meant fully sarcastically

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10 minutes ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

That was my biggest disappointment with this patch.

 

Honestly even if Gaijin implements T-90A in the last second before the patch drops it will still be disappointing , T-90A is a long long time overdue , after 1.95 it will be irrelevant so at  this point the right question to ask becomes where is T-90M ?

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3 minutes ago, Raldi92 said:

 

Honestly even if Gaijin implements T-90A in the last second before the patch drops it will still be disappointing , T-90A is a long long time overdue , after 1.95 it will be irrelevant so at  this point the right question to ask becomes where is T-90M ?

 

Good point. Changed title of the topic.

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Just now, Alan_Tovarishch said:

I don´t know where all this skepticism on T-90A ability to be competitive comes from.

 

Mainly due to inferior mobility compared to T-80U ( which accounts for 80% of the meta ) , worst ERA coverage on the turret that will make it a canon-breach meme and still the same obvious weak-spots  .

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Just now, Raldi92 said:

 

Mainly due to inferior mobility compared to T-80U ( which accounts for 80% of the meta ) , worst ERA coverage on the turret that will make it a canon-breach meme and still the same obvious weak-spots  .

 

This

You don't get uprated engines until the T-90AM and M iirc, still have the turret ejection system and I doubt Gaijin would give it Svinets 

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T-90A would functionally be no real better meta wise than the T-80U. S

 

We are indeed well aware of the desires for this tank and are absolutely not "leaving the USSR to die". Just in the last patch alone, they received two helicopters to support ground forces lineups and bring them up to speed with other nations as well as the BMP-3 and an upgrade package for the Tunguska. There is indeed more to come in future for the USSR. 

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I reached a point where I would say "as long as there is no addition to the US techtree" it's a good addition. The US/UK fraction is sitting on a 70% win rate now for months, far longer than any 2a5 meme win rate. With the 2a5 still being to expensive for many player to deploy it regularly and the t-80u not being able to carry the thing home alone, there is an imbalance.

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17 minutes ago, Raldi92 said:

Mainly due to inferior mobility compared to T-80U ( which accounts for 80% of the meta )

That is the only disadvantage. But i maintain that T-90A other features do compensate for it. I mean, T-72A is great in 9.0-9.3 matches and it´s mobility is also bad compared to the other tanks. Don't forget the traverse speed of 40 degrees per second, which makes the tank almost double better than T-80U to react to unexpected enemies.

 

17 minutes ago, Raldi92 said:

worst ERA coverage on the turret that will make it a canon-breach meme and still the same obvious weak-spots  .

ERA coverage in general is better (even more for UFP), but both tanks have almost no ERA besides the main gun. Even then, T-90A base armor is at least 15 percent better than T-80U, will be able to resist even CL1343 to UFP. Of course there are still issues with the way K5 is modelled which leads to it underperforming.

 

15 minutes ago, *RAazzy91 said:

You don't get uprated engines until the T-90AM and M iirc, still have the turret ejection system and I doubt Gaijin would give it Svinets 

T-90A does have upgraded engine compared to previous T-90. And with BM-48 it will be very good.

 

15 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

T-90A would functionally be no real better meta wise than the T-80U.

It really depends on how you guys are planning to portray the vehicle itself (for example, which ammo you will make available or are planning on making Shtora functional, or also giving the tank the thermal sights both for gunner and commander, which is a real life upgrade with the Irbis-K+Agat MDT combo). I guess you can´t give away anything at the moment, but i would be great if you did ;).

 

15 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

BMP-3 and an upgrade package for the Tunguska. 

I would prefer if those vehicles had those researchable modules from the moment they were introduced ingame. Other nations tanks don't have to wait 1-2 patches to get their historical sights/full features and capabilities. Still it's something to appreciate. BTW, it would also be great and "realistic" to give BMP-3 researchable ATGM autoloading mechanism, because in the near future the IFV will be a mix of newest and oldest models.

 

15 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

There is indeed more to come in future for the USSR. 

:good:

Edited by Alan_Tovarishch
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2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

T-90A would functionally be no real better meta wise than the T-80U. S

 

But at least it would be SOMETHING to let us know this tree hasn't been thrown in the garbage with devs seemingly more interested in instead throwing out masses of premium NATO tanks instead...

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

We are indeed well aware of the desires for this tank and are absolutely not "leaving the USSR to die".

 

Sorry, but doesn't seem like it.

- no competitive top tier tank for over a year

- no competitive top shell (Svinets-1 and Svinets-2)

- no jet CAS

- no PTABs

- no AGMs

- no plane with AGMs

- no 4.7-8.0 SPAA (Yenisei has been passed to devs how many years back?)

- no Sprut-SD or BMD-1/2/3

- the worst possible MiG-21 variant produced that is spaded worse than stock F-4C (that is given to other nations that also get AGMs... something USSR is still missing even though there were MiG-21's that used them) instead of the variant that would be competitive and balanced (Bis)

- prohibitive repair costs for pretty much every Soviet light vehicle that is launched

- Soviet light vehicles forcibly kept at unbalanced and uncompetitive high BRs

- Soviet vehicles coming out either broken, unexplainably nerfed or set at BRs that make them unpleasant to play and uncompetitive

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Just in the last patch alone, they received two helicopters to support ground forces lineups

 

Helicopters... We are talking about tanks here, Smin. Not helicopters of which one was premium, the other requires either sanity-killing grind or shelling out over 300 eur to even get it. We need tanks, not helis (and jet CAS with AGM which US has had for over a year now). Helicopters, especially premium ones, don't win the ground war or take caps with enemies less than 3km away.

And that are countered by ADATS which is regular tree and requires much less and easier grind than the Mi-28..

 

Besides the fact that helicopters EC is a complete and utter mess, doing nothing but giving players with AA missiles free kills and discouraging players without AAs from even playing it. I tried playing it several times and at the end concluded that cutting my own body parts without painkillers would've been more pleasant, so I still don't even have Mi-24A.

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

them up to speed with other nations as well as the BMP-3 and an upgrade package for the Tunguska.

 

Will BMP-3 also get lower BR that it deserves? Better ATGM reload time? Pretty much any NATO IFV at 8.3 outperforms in and all of them already have thermals that BMP-3 with double the repair costs, triple the ATGM reload time and almost a full BR step higher rating is getting only now.

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

There is indeed more to come in future for the USSR. 

 

I seem to remember something similar being said last year by you even IIRC when T-72A was launched same time as 2A5 and we were disappointed why we got it instead of something more competitive to the new 10.0. And now, 1 year later we are still waiting for Gaijin to make good on your words. Hell, no new tanks since then was even launched.

 

The question is, will your "indeed more to come" be obsolete on arrival like much of recent Soviet additions were? Will it be unhistorically nerfed like all of Soviet recent additions were? With either unsupported reload nerfs, BR nerfs, unsustainable repair costs, etc. For the last several years USSR has been deliberately held 1 or 2 steps behind NATO. An imbalance that is particularly notable when one plays top tier SB.

11 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

I reached a point where I would say "as long as there is no addition to the US techtree" it's a good addition. The US/UK fraction is sitting on a 70% win rate now for months, far longer than any 2a5 meme win rate. With the 2a5 still being to expensive for many player to deploy it regularly and the t-80u not being able to carry the thing home alone, there is an imbalance.

 

Play SB. 2A5 had 93% and 2A4 90% WR last time I looked on thunderskill.

11 minutes ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

Other nations tanks don't have to wait 1-2 patches to get their historical sights/full features and capabilities.

 

This.

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4 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

We are indeed well aware of the desires for this tank and are absolutely not "leaving the USSR to die". Just in the last patch alone, they received two helicopters to support ground forces lineups and bring them up to speed with other nations as well as the BMP-3 and an upgrade package for the Tunguska. There is indeed more to come in future for the USSR. 

 

Sure  but you might agree that helicopters can only help so much , ground forces is about ground units therefore you need ground units to cap points and win games and preferably ground units with comparable performance to the enemy ! T-80U is in no way a competition for Leclerc , M1A2 and Leopard 2A5 . BMP-3 is about to receive it's thermal sight yet in the same time lacks it's auto loader that was standard equipment even on older models without thermal-sight . Tunguska received it's upgrade package which includes 10km range missiles yet those are somehow absent in the game when at the same time ADATS is equipped with 10km range missiles from  the getgo ( MUCH better ones aswell ) .

 

You can certainly see the pattern here . Sure Gaijin might not be exactly  leaving the USSR to die but you can only agree to the fact that USSR top tier has for a long long time now been dragging behind NATO in term of competitiveness !

 

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30 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 the BMP-3 and an upgrade package for the Tunguska. There is indeed more to come in future for the USSR. 

 

The only thing they got was cherry-picked from those upgrade packages, while the rest of the package was ignored.

Tunguska is still missing the upgraded missile that is faster and has better range (ADATS has much better missiles stock).

 

BMP-3 is still missing it's real ATGM reload rate.

Edited by jackTIGR
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3 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

 

But at least it would be SOMETHING to let us know this tree hasn't been thrown in the garbage with devs seemingly more interested in instead throwing out masses of premium NATO tanks instead...

 

 

The USSR is one of the largest and most comprehensive tank trees in game. Nothing is being "thrown" anywhere here. Some nations dont have 1/3rd of the MBTs this tree has. 

 

4 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

Sorry, but doesn't seem like it.

- no competitive top tier tank for over a year

 

Some nations had 1 or no competitive top tier MBTs, so we had to focus on them first as the USSR had 4. 

 

5 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

- no competitive top shell (Svinets-1 and Svinets-2)

 

New shells were added for USSR MBTs some time ago. Its possible more may come in future if required. 

 

6 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

- no jet CAS

 

Most nations do not have full fledged dedicated top tier jet CAS outside of bombers and fighter-bomber equipped aircraft. Dedicated jet CAS is essentially a class of its own which we dont yet have for any nation yet in game as your going into the realms of A-10 and Su-25. 

 

The rest of the things mentioned apply also to most other nations such as Japan, Italy, France and Britain too. 

 

8 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

Helicopters... We are talking about tanks here, Smin. Not helicopters of which one was premium, the other requires either sanity-killing grind or shelling out over 300 eur to even get it. We need tanks, not helis (and jet CAS with AGM which US has had for over a year now). Helicopters, especially premium ones, don't win the ground war or take caps with enemies less than 3km away.

And that are countered by ADATS which is regular tree and requires much less and easier grind than the Mi-28..

 

Helicopters are fundamental part of ground forces too. Ignoring the addition of the Ka-50 and Mi-28 is massive oversight into how they have helped USSR GF lineups. 

 

9 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

I seem to remember something similar being said last year by you even IIRC when T-72A was launched same time as 2A5 and we were disappointed why we got it instead of something more competitive to the new 10.0. And now, 1 year later we are still waiting for Gaijin to make good on your words. Hell, no new tanks since then was even launched.

 

The question is, will your "indeed more to come" be obsolete on arrival like much of recent Soviet additions were? Will it be unhistorically nerfed like all of Soviet recent additions were? With either unsupported reload nerfs, BR nerfs, unsustainable repair costs, etc. For the last several years USSR has been deliberately held 1 or 2 steps behind NATO. An imbalance that is particularly notable when one plays top tier SB.

 

USSR is not the only nation in the game. We have not been ignoring it at all. It has had a steady stream of content across the board with much more to come. However other nations are much behind the USSR in many respects and we have also had to focus on them too. Its not all about top rank MBTs. 

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14 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Some nations had 1 or no competitive top tier MBTs, so we had to focus on them first as the USSR had 4.

 

I would love to hear which are those 4 competitive top tier USSR MBTs considering even T-80U is inferior to the most competitive top tier MBTs of other nations  ?

Come on Smin , this can't be a serious argument , US tech tree had at least as many if not more ''competitive''  top tier MBTs yet they received a shiny new one ..... so how do you explain this ?

 

 

Edited by Raldi92
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2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

The USSR is one of the largest and most comprehensive tank trees in game. Nothing is being "thrown" anywhere here. Some nations dont have 1/3rd of the MBTs this tree has. 

 

And a lot of that tree are paper-weights that are overtiered or simply underperforming.

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Some nations had 1 or no competitive top tier MBTs, so we had to focus on them first as the USSR had 4. 

 

Emphasis on competitive. USSR has none truly competitive MBT at top tier. Certainly not one that would stand shoulder to shoulder with what NATO has been given.

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

New shells were added for USSR MBTs some time ago. Its possible more may come in future if required.

 

Yes, new shells that are now, what, fifth or sixth place in performance? "possible", "required" - that just makes me facepalm. They're already required and have been for months.

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Most nations do not have full fledged dedicated top tier jet CAS outside of bombers and fighter-bomber equipped aircraft.

 

USSR doesn't even have that. Look at US, UK, FR and GER trees... full of fighters that confidently do CAS much better than any Soviet plane. Only offer USSR has is the huge, slow and heavy IL-28Ish that can be easily brought down with tier 2 Wirbelwind, not to mention any radar SPAA at it's BR. US, UK and I think FR now have AGMs on planes...

 

Where is Su-7B? Su-17? MiG-21Bis? Where is Su-25A that could only use laser-guided AGMs (like FJ4B)?

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Dedicated jet CAS is essentially a class of its own which we dont yet have for any nation yet in game as your going into the realms of A-10 and Su-25. 

 

CAS in this game is pretty much every Saber, F-84, G.91, etc. that can equip a range of bombs and rockets and helps friendly tanks by killing enemy tanks.

 

And I really hope you're not saying Su-25 is comparable to A-10 that came with Mavericks at bare-bones version lol!

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Helicopters are fundamental part of ground forces too. Ignoring the addition of the Ka-50 and Mi-28 is massive oversight into how they have helped USSR GF lineups. 

 

Haven't really noticed an improved win rate, especially not a WR that would make it equal to NATO.

 

Again, Ka-50 is hidden behind a paywall.

 

2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

USSR is not the only nation in the game. We have not been ignoring it at all. It has had a steady stream of content across the board with much more to come. However other nations are much behind the USSR in many respects and we have also had to focus on them too.

 

Only nations that have been added in last 4 patches, all others are either caught up or have already overtaken USSR (Italy being a good example). China also doesn't have any SPAA below 5.3 and above Duster.

11 minutes ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

And every other IFV has insanely ATGM high reload rate. For example for the Bradley IRL it takes up to 90 seconds to reload the ATGMs.

 

Yeah, not to mention all those vehicles that would require the operators to EXIT THE VEHICLE, for the vehicle to stand still and be powered down; and would take minutes to reload.

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24 minutes ago, Raldi92 said:

Come on Smin , this can't be a serious argument , US tech tree had at least many if not more ''competitive''  top tier MBTs yet they received a shiny new one ..... so how do you explain this ?

 

Raldi, don't forget that Smin is an employed by Gaijin Entertainment to represent them before the publics and is legally bound and constrained by his contract with Gaijin. Thus he is not allowed to criticise them publicly and is contract-bound to defend them.

Edited by jackTIGR
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8 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

Haven't really noticed an improved win rate, especially not a WR that would make it equal to NATO.

 

Ofc you haven't noticed it because if anything else Ka-50 contributed to even lower win rates than before !  I don't see how half of the team being inexperienced players who barely know how to properly fly the bloody thing and who are non existent on the battlefield to occupy positions and cap points could make any positive impact on USSR win-rates ...

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5 minutes ago, jackTIGR said:

 

Raldi, don't forget that Smin is an employed by Gaijin Entertainment to represent them before the publics, thus is paid to defend his employer and the employer's decisions and politics, even if they go against his own beliefs. He can be punished if he said anything negative about Gaijin or disagreed with politics and decisions. That will of course influence what he says and how he says it and he will be forced to defend Gaijin's actions, even if it means making arguments that won't be taken seriously.

@jackTIGR respectfully, we don't need to get hostile with @Smin1080p. Today is Sunday and i'm pretty sure that he is not on working shift. He came here to try to reassure us in light of our disappointment with the latest patch.

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4 minutes ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

@jackTIGR respectfully, we don't need to get hostile with @Smin1080p. Today is Sunday and i'm pretty sure that he is not on working shift. He came here to try to reassure us in light of our disappointment with the latest patch.

 

You're right.

 

My apologies, @Smin1080p I didn't mean to come across hostile, I just wanted to point out to @Raldi92some legal constraints that Smin IS bound by in the way he acts and what he writes.

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As long as USSR gets at least one MBT and/or jet I will be happy. Just felt odd in first dev as the tree only got a thermal mod for BMP-3 w/o ATGM load fix. Italy also got no new things. I shall wait for 2nd dev or live to say anything further.

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