TheElusiveWapiti

Just a quick comment on the subject of crew lock...

I see no purpose for crew lock.  I cannot think of a single instance in which the threat of crew lock ever influenced my decision making process.  If I've been up-tiered, I'll do my best, but only for that one vehicle.  I'll stay as long as the game looks like an even match.  I'm not sacrificing my entire line-up so a bunch of wallet warriors in their shiny new XM-1's can steam-roll me and then camp my team's spawn and pad their stats at my expense.

If you punish something, you get less of it.  I can only conclude that Gaijin wants me to play their game...less.

Okay.

If the team I want to play is locked, I simply exit War Thunder and go do something else for awhile.  And if it's more fun and interesting, I probably won't be back for the rest of the day.  Maybe.  Maybe not.

Come to think of it, I can't remember ever having 'crew lock', or being up-tiered while playing IL2: Sturmavik or Squad.  Hmmm...

  • Upvote 6
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Purpose of crew lock is to punish people leaving a match early or for crashing their aircraft. The point is to keep people in the match for the sake of their team mates rather than throwing in the towel as soon as a certain condition doesn't suite their fancy.

  • Thanks 1
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not working.  People ignore it.  If you do something to try and achieve a certain result, and it keeps not working...

Something...something...definition of insanity...something...

I stopped keeping track of the number of top tier games in which I suddenly found my self all alone after the first 3 - 5 minutes, checked the stats and saw that the rest of my team had quit after losing only one vehicle.

And that's just economics, and I don't blame them.  If you're getting steam-rolled, you can tell almost immediately.  Throwing more SL into the shredder is not going to make it better.

 

Edited by TheElusiveWapiti
  • Upvote 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a shame, I know. Part of me thinks that the crew lock as it currently stands isn't severe enough, the problem is that the game cannot differentiate getting flown into or something like that as opposed to somebody just rage quitting.

 

I still think that hitting the wallet is where you'll get the most effect. Like maybe, leave early and you pay no repair cost, but you also get no SL and no RP.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Games are meant to be fun.  People have an intrinsic sense of what is 'fair' from about the age of 5.  They know instinctively when something isn't 'fair', or someone seems to be cheating them.  Any playground bully knows that you can't 'make' people play your game, your way.  They'll leave.  And the threat, or implied threat, of any kind of coercion, or 'force', just makes them leave faster.

 

If I want that kind of additional stress in my life, I'll get a second job.

Want people to stay in game and play more WT?  Removing crew lock is one thing that would help.  It doesn't serve the purpose intended, therefore it serves no purpose at all.

"I still think that hitting the wallet is where you'll get the most effect. Like maybe, leave early and you pay no repair cost, but you also get no SL and no RP."

Uh-huh.  Nothing prevents a player from simply entering into Spectator mode after dying in game, and then just walking away, going to the bathroom, getting a sandwich, etc.

What then?  Technically, they haven't "left the game", but they're not actively playing either.  Now what?  Punish them?  Take the SL and RP that they've already earned?

Edited by TheElusiveWapiti
  • Upvote 7
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

Games are meant to be fun. 

 

Agreed. Let me ask this: what games have you played that were fun but not challenging?

 

I see uptiers or being outnumbered or my vehicle being outclassed as a challenge, which therefore keeps things interesting. If all I used were the very "best" vehicles on only the maps I prefer with a team composition that suites me I would get bored very quickly. I also like winning or at least making the enemy team work as hard as possible for their win, that's why I always spawn every vehicle that I possibly can.

 

41 minutes ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

Want people to stay in game and play more WT?  Removing crew lock is one thing that would help.  It doesn't serve the purpose intended, therefore it serves no purpose at all.

 

Would that get people to play more, or would that just cause even more people to J out of match conditions that don't give them as many advantages as they'd like?

 

43 minutes ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

What then?  Technically, they haven't "left the game", but they're not actively playing either.  Now what?  Punish them?  Take the SL and RP that they've already earned?

 

Sure, sounds good to me.

 

I realize that, though generally SL is easy to come by in WT, it can be a challenge when playing only top tier tanks. However, I think the solution to that is adjusting rewards and repair costs, not by making it easier/harder to bail out of matches and shafting team mates.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

People have an intrinsic sense of what is 'fair' from about the age of 5.  They know instinctively when something isn't 'fair', or someone seems to be cheating them.

 

This is a claim. This forum is proving that claim wrong, as almost all nations, vehicles, mechanics... are considered to be biased. People just can't agree on the direction of the bias. Other than "biased against me".

 

 

And do we really need another thread on this topic?

Edited by Dodo_Dud
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

Games are meant to be fun.  People have an intrinsic sense of what is 'fair' from about the age of 5.  They know instinctively when something isn't 'fair', or someone seems to be cheating them.  Any playground bully knows that you can't 'make' people play your game, your way.  They'll leave.  And the threat, or implied threat, of any kind of coercion, or 'force', just makes them leave faster.

If people really want to play, they'll play. Those that quit don't. They don't want much of a challenge, it seems. Especially if we base it on all the complaints about uptiers, BR spread, map design, spawn camping, economy, vehicle bias, lacking teamwork, etc etc. People find reasons to give up. They're quitters. Quitters give up.

 

9 hours ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

Want people to stay in game and play more WT?  Removing crew lock is one thing that would help.  It doesn't serve the purpose intended, therefore it serves no purpose at all.

Crew Lock will have no effect on that. Since Crew Lock only apply when you leave a match, not staying in it. The removal of Crew Lock will add no incentive to stay but open up the possibility to leave more freely. You dont understand the mechanic with that kind of comment, I'm afraid. It's true that it doesn't serve the purpose well enough since people find loopholes.

 

9 hours ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

Uh-huh.  Nothing prevents a player from simply entering into Spectator mode after dying in game, and then just walking away, going to the bathroom, getting a sandwich, etc.
What then?  Technically, they haven't "left the game", but they're not actively playing either.  Now what?  Punish them?  Take the SL and RP that they've already earned?

Having rewards connected to activity, means less rewards for inactive players. Players are punishing themselves for leaving early or being too passive. As far as I understand, this is how it works now now. Those leaving are getting less rewards than those staying. Increasing this gap could add incentive for some to stay further, but still people will find ways to justify their actions with excuses. "Bad maps, "bad teams", "bad uptier", etc.

 

Rewards should never be removed. What you earn stays with you. But optimizing research and SL farming could be done much more efficient if people want to. It can be done today already, and there wouldn't be any SL issues for those lacking a SL buffer. It comes down to understanding rewards and what you're willing to do to earn it.

  • Confused 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, xF4LC0NxPUNCHx said:

I still think that hitting the wallet is where you'll get the most effect. Like maybe, leave early and you pay no repair cost, but you also get no SL and no RP.

Problem with that is, as you said, the game can’t differentiate between legit and accidental.

Or, you may see more one vehicle lineups in the game. 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, *KnightsCross20 said:

Problem with that is, as you said, the game can’t differentiate between legit and accidental. 

 

Yes, you're absolutely correct, and that is something that would have to be addressed at the same time.

 

4 hours ago, *KnightsCross20 said:

Or, you may see more one vehicle lineups in the game. 

 

That shouldn't be allowed at all, in my opinion. I'd rather have someone bring one "at BR" vehicle and 2 reserve vehicles than just a one vehicle lineup.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you'd "rather" is not what will happen.  Look up the term "unintended consequences".  People aren't sheep.  They are thinking, rational actors, making decisions on what is best for them as individuals.

If you make people feel as if they are being nudged, or pressured to do something they'd rather not, they will resent it, and either move away, or do the exact opposite of what you want, if for no other reason than just to spite you.

 

"I believe in it, I answer for it, for the whole work of man really seems to consist in nothing but proving to himself every minute that he is a man and not a piano-key!"

Fyodor Dostoyevsky, "Notes from Underground",  Chapter VIII

medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheElusiveWapiti said:

People aren't sheep.  They are thinking, rational actors, making decisions on what is best for them as individuals.

 

The temptation to say more than just "you must not have seen the news" is strong...

 

Plenty of people act without thinking and/or make irrational moves (even against their own interests). Search "Florida man" for a sampling if you'd like...

Edited by warrior412
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Gaijin forces me to play under certain conditions.

I just yolo headon the first plane i cross, so i can die and go to the next.

I am not the only one to do so, crew lock isn't a solution. Fixing the game is.

Edited by Qyoon
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Qyoon said:

When Gaijin forces me to play under certain conditions.

I just yolo headon the first plane i cross, so i can die and go to the next.

I am not the only one to do so, crew lock isn't a solution. Fixing the game is.

Fixing what? The "problem" is likely very subjective here and in such case near impossible to fix. You touch it with "forces me to play under certain conditions". What conditions? If we get into uptiers, maps, day cycle/weather, etc, that's just subjective. Some like it, some don't. So there's not really anything to fix. The problem lies in such case with you, not the game.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crew lock is a failure, from the day they implemented it. It has failed to achieve its primary goal; keep people in the match. 

As you correctly pointed out, people will leave after one death, sometimes even before then, if the conditions do not suit. Crew lock has never influenced their decision.

Like you, crew lock has never influenced whether I stay in a match or not. If I load a ground RB match and its mixed/uptiered/bad map/bad mode/bad weather/bad time of day(atomic sun)/night battle/etc etc etc I quit. I don't even spawn a single vehicle. Not when top tier repair costs are the way they are. No way. I'm happy to wait my 10 minutes by playing another nation or another game. 

Crew lock doesn't stop me. Nor others. All it does is annoy people who genuinely enjoy the game.

If you crash your plane on take off - Crew Locked.
If someone crashes into you soon after take off - Crew Locked.
If the enemy rams into you - Crew Locked.
If you J out and it awards your death to someone nearby - Crew Locked.
If you're too close to your own bombs and die - Crew Locked.
If you misjudge a manoeuvre close to the ground and accidentally crash - Crew Locked.
If you get killed by your own artillery in ground RB - Crew Locked. 
If you lose concentration for a second and accidentally drive into a river in ground RB - Crew Locked.
If a team mate decides to be a toss and push you into a river in ground RB - Crew Locked.
If you get disconnected from server - Crew Locked.
If your packet loss goes mad and it causes your plane to crash - Crew Locked.
If your game crashes - Crew Locked.

The list goes on. All crew lock does is annoy the war thunders player base and fails to achieve its intended purpose.

Crew lock has been a failure from the start. Unfair crew locks are the reason I will happily stop playing for a few hours/days, and I'm sure there are others too. It ruins the game. It needs to be removed. 

End of story.

Edited by sniperNZSAS
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, sniperNZSAS said:

Crew lock has been a failure from the start.

 

I agree with you that it is not working well. I would favor a replacement that works better.

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/11/2019 at 01:21, xF4LC0NxPUNCHx said:

It's a shame, I know. Part of me thinks that the crew lock as it currently stands isn't severe enough, the problem is that the game cannot differentiate getting flown into or something like that as opposed to somebody just rage quitting.

 

I still think that hitting the wallet is where you'll get the most effect. Like maybe, leave early and you pay no repair cost, but you also get no SL and no RP.

 

The "punishment" as we have it today is making people quit battle. Make it more severe and they'll start quitting game.

 

Punishing people is a very bad idea from the begging. Make it worth it to stay, even if the battle is lost. Otherwise people will leave and punishment will only make them more angry.

 

Players need incentives to spend their time with the game, punishing them is only discouraging people from playing the game. There are too many punishment mechanics in this game already, crew locks, repair costs, spawn camping, you name it, when it should be done completely the other way. They should give incentives to stay with the game, not punish for leaving. If they continue that way, sooner or later people will leave for good.

 

Maps where you have only one, unprotected spawn point, which gets surrounded by horde of XM-1s 3 minutes from beginning of the game are perfect examples of bad game design, where you have zero incentives to stay and play. But, this is an old issue, Gaijin is not reworking game mechanics as soon as they are dropped in the game, there are multiple issues in both GFRB and Air RB,unattended for years. They seem only to be interested to follow easy money.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, khoreele said:

The "punishment" as we have it today is making people quit battle.

Someone else remarked that crew lock can't be the reason to quit battle. Because it only affects you if you do quit. If you stay in battle, crew lock will not affect you.

 

A similar argument would be that speed limit fines are the reason for speeding. It just makes no sense.

 

2 hours ago, khoreele said:

Gaijin is not reworking game mechanics as soon as they are dropped in the game

 

They have changed multiple mechanics many times.

Edited by Dodo_Dud
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Arium said:

Fixing what? The "problem" is likely very subjective here and in such case near impossible to fix. You touch it with "forces me to play under certain conditions". What conditions? If we get into uptiers, maps, day cycle/weather, etc, that's just subjective. Some like it, some don't. So there's not really anything to fix. The problem lies in such case with you, not the game.

 

When the game throws me into match with "mecanics" that can be abused.

The spotting system is broken and as been broken and abused for years. 

Basicly a giant cloud  from 2 to 6k alt that covers almost the whole map.

People will simply abuse it, staying in cloud while a mate spot people so they can dive on targets they normally cannot see.

Same by night when you can abuse the spotting system.

 

For exemple :Yesterday just did 3 kills on tagets i didn't even see and just randomly shot at.

Because it was a night map, so they were spotted by an ally and i got  killed the same way.

This is not fun to kill or get killed this way.

 

Unless it got fixed, you can also mod the post FX settings to see better at night too.

And this is only the spotting system, you can abuse many ingame mecanics when you know it enought.

 

This shouldn't be the case in a multiplayer game.

 

ps : yesterday : normal map lost , night map lost, night map win , giant cloud map win, i logged out bored.

Edited by Qyoon
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Qyoon said:

When the game throws me into match with "mecanics" that can be abused.

The spotting system is broken and as been broken and abused for years. 

Basicly a giant cloud  from 2 to 6k alt that covers almost the whole map.

People will simply abuse it, staying in cloud while a mate spot people so they can dive on targets they normally cannot see.

Same by night when you can abuse the spotting system.

 

For exemple :Yesterday just did 3 kills on tagets i didn't even see and just randomly shot at.

Because it was a night map, so they were spotted by an ally and i got  killed the same way.

This is not fun to kill or get killed this way.

 

Unless it got fixed, you can also mod the post FX settings to see better at night too.

And this is only the spotting system, you can abuse many ingame mecanics when you know it enought.

 

This shouldn't be the case in a multiplayer game.

The spotting system apply to everyone. I have my own opinions on it and what is need of some fixing, but it's not really reason enough to bail. What I'm thinking of is popping/clipping, where vehicles pop-in and disappear, while you should have them spotted and rendered. 

Clouds do limit visibility which is intended, so using it as cover is smart play. Night maps also apply to everyone, so we all have less ability to spot each other. Using cover is not abuse. If you don't understand how to utilize it, doesn't mean the other person is abusing it.

 

Modding PostFX settings was much easier pbefore and you could make a night map turn into day, pretty much. They locked that option and I believe it's still like that at the moment (haven't tested much lately).

As long as mechanics apply to everyone, generally it's fine in multiplayer games.

 

 

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can either motivate or punish people for leaving match early. Gaijin is good with punishing but not so good in motivating people. For example full reward for top 3 players from loosing team or free repair if you get killed in first 20s after respawn would probably keep more people in battle then crew lock.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Steelbeast said:

free repair if you get killed in first 20s after respawn

 

Was there no spawn protection in RB? In AB this free repair is factually implemented (buggy on some maps) and it doesn't stop quitters.

Edited by Dodo_Dud
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Dodo_Dud said:

 

Was there no spawn protection in RB? In AB this free repair is factually implemented (buggy on some maps) and it doesn't stop quitters.

No, you are invulnerable for a while so you can take some xxxxxxx with you but after that you are dead and you pay the repair bill.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Steelbeast said:

No, you are invulnerable for a while so you can take some xxxxxxx with you but after that you are dead and you pay the repair bill.

 

58 minutes ago, Steelbeast said:

or free repair if you get killed in first 20s after respawn would probably keep more people in battle then crew lock.

 

I think that time is 20 seconds. So your suggestion is already implemented (you need to report the maps where it is broken).

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dodo_Dud said:

 

 

I think that time is 20 seconds. So your suggestion is already implemented (you need to report the maps where it is broken).

Obviously you don't see the difference. Point is not to pay (expensive) repair bill if someone shots you in spawn. Which is not implemented at all. 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.