question regarding the F4U-7(french)

[blackbeard_teach 39]

as i was checking out the "duplicates" from other nations i came across the F4U-7, i was startled that it wasn't there in the US tree and i decided to investigate it.

 

a short history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair#Variants

 

F4U-6, this was a ground-attack version produced for the U.S. Marine Corps of the corsair family

since it's an "attacker" or "CAS", they designated it as AU-1(we will ignore the name F4U-6 starting now).

 

this is the Wikipedia  page explanation:-

"U.S. Marines attack variant with extra armor to protect the pilot and fuel tank, and the oil coolers relocated inboard to reduce vulnerability to ground fire. The supercharger was simplified as the design was intended for low-altitude operation. Extra racks were also fitted. Fully loaded for combat the AU-1 weighed 20% more than a fully loaded F4U-4, and was capable of carrying 8,200 lb of bombs. The AU-1 had a maximum speed of 238 miles per hour at 9,500 ft, when loaded with 4,600 lb of bombs and a 150-gallon drop-tank. When loaded with eight rockets and two 150-gallon drop-tanks, maximum speed was 298 mph at 19,700 ft. When not carrying external loads, maximum speed was 389 mph at 14,000 ft. First produced in 1952 and used in Korea, and retired in 1957. Re-designated from F4U-6."

 

note on the low altitude performance intention.

 

now the AU-1 was developed from the F4U-5, that doesn't exist in the game yet.

 

the F4U-5, from what i read was supposedly the polished corsair, with better engine and feedback taken from pilots.:-

 

 "A 1945 design modification of the F4U-4, first flown on 21 December 1945, was intended to increase the F4U-4 Corsair's overall performance and incorporate many Corsair pilots' suggestions. It featured a more powerful Pratt and Whitney R-2800-32(E) engine with a two-stage supercharger,[135] rated at a maximum of 2,760 hp (2,060 kW). Other improvements included automatic blower controls, cowl flaps, intercooler doors, and oil cooler for the engine, spring tabs for the elevators and rudder, a completely modernized cockpit, a completely retractable tail wheel, and heated cannon bays and pitot head. The cowling was lowered two degrees to help with forward visibility, but perhaps most striking as the first variant to feature all-metal wings (223 units produced).[136][137] Maximum speed was 408 knots (470 mph) and max rate of climb at sea level 4,850 feet per minute."

 

which conclude that the AU-1 have better performance than the highest available corsair(F4U-4B) to the US tree until high altitude operation is required.

 

the AU-1 was then redesigned to the french and named F4U-7(i think the only difference is the instrument is in french).

 

 

alright, opening up the game wiki i spot 2 things.

1)the F4U-7 compressor(supercharger) table was copied exactly from the F4U-4.

2)the F4U-4B, despite being identical to the 50cal variant it was given a superior engine performance in-game

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/F4U-7

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/F4U-4

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/F4U-4B

 

 

 

how we don't have the F4U-5 in-game is beyond me...., and please nobody tell them about the Super corsair otherwise it's gonna be a premium

 

 

 

 

Update: after careful reading, it seem the AU-1 performance was worsen for various factors and should not outrun the F4U-4.

issue remains for in-game wiki compressor list

also, F4U-5 was passed for consideration

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by blackbeard_teach

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

This might be more for the discussion section about machinery of war.

 

But still, yes. it was quite a disappointment that the F4U-5, or the AU-1, are not in-game. However, I can still at least re-enact the First Indochina War with the current lineup of F4U-7s.

[blackbeard_teach 39]

3 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

This might be more for the discussion section about machinery of war.

 

But still, yes. it was quite a disappointment that the F4U-5, or the AU-1, are not in-game. However, I can still at least re-enact the First Indochina War with the current lineup of F4U-7s.

you have the AU-1, the instrument are just in french

 

i was just stating the background of my discussion, which i would post under "gaijin please" flair on reddit regarding adding the F4U-5.

 

logically speaking, the F4U-7(bonjour AU-1) should have the best low altitude performance out of all corsairs, after it drops the bombs though, but the WT wiki compressor list indicate that the 4B have more engine power than the 5

 

Update:

it seem the F4U-5 has passed for considerations on another post, it should be 5.7 battlerating

 

remains the issue of compressor setting on Bonjour AU-1

Edited November 6, 2019 by blackbeard_teach
just edit

[blastedryan 937]

7 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

now the AU-1 was developed from the F4U-5

Where is the sourcing for that statement?

[DnaGonite 10]

8 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

https://wiki.warthunder.com/F4U-7

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/F4U-4

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/F4U-4B

8 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

issue remains for in-game wiki compressor list

 

I can confirm that all three aircraft mentioned have accurate compressor lists based on a datamine of version 1.93.0.24 . If you believe that the values are incorrect, I'd recommend you make a bug report in the appropriate section, although I'm not sure what their stance on datamined values as a representation of the game is.

 

 

[blackbeard_teach 39]

On 06/11/2019 at 17:13, blastedryan said:

Where is the sourcing for that statement?

check the koeroan war section on the wikipedia link(perform a search for the AU-1)

 

taken from the wiki:-

"The AU-1 Corsair was developed from the F4U-5 and was a ground-attack version which normally operated at low altitudes: as a consequence the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-83W engine used a single-stage, manually controlled supercharger, rather than the two-stage automatic supercharger of the -5. "

[blackbeard_teach 39]

On 06/11/2019 at 18:50, DnaGonite said:

 

I can confirm that all three aircraft mentioned have accurate compressor lists based on a datamine of version 1.93.0.24 . If you believe that the values are incorrect, I'd recommend you make a bug report in the appropriate section, although I'm not sure what their stance on datamined values as a representation of the game is.

 

 

thank you for your efforts.

 

if i am not mistaken, all form of "superchargers" are simplified into "compressor"  hence why i see the P-47-D superchargers only mentioned in the battle usage  but referred to as compressors setting in ingame wiki. correct me if i am wrong please.

 

 

so my issue is, if the F4U-7 is the AU-1, and the AU-1 is equip with an engine with only 1 supercharger setting, shouldn't in the compressor setting be only 2 for the F4U-7?

also, shouldn't the F4U-4B have equal mobility performance as the F4U-B?

 

 

 

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

12 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

thank you for your efforts.

 

if i am not mistaken, all form of "superchargers" are simplified into "compressor"  hence why i see the P-47-D superchargers only mentioned in the battle usage  but referred to as compressors setting in ingame wiki. correct me if i am wrong please.

 

 

so my issue is, if the F4U-7 is the AU-1, and the AU-1 is equip with an engine with only 1 supercharger setting, shouldn't in the compressor setting be only 2 for the F4U-7?

also, shouldn't the F4U-4B have equal mobility performance as the F4U-B?

 

 

 

F4U-B? Nooo idea.

 

Also the F4U-7 was not a total clone of the AU-1. The french didn't want a pure fighter-bomber- they also wanted the Corse as a long-range Fleet Def. fighter as well, I'm pretty sure. I'm a bit iffy on the subject, so don't trust me  

Edited November 8, 2019 by Aussie_Mantis
AAARGH READ THE EDIT PLEEEAAASSSEEE

[blastedryan 937]

If you look at the Vought corporation club, it supports what the Gaijin has https://www.vought.org/products/html/f4u-7.html

 

 

[blackbeard_teach 39]

On 08/11/2019 at 18:19, blastedryan said:

If you look at the Vought corporation club, it supports what the Gaijin has https://www.vought.org/products/html/f4u-7.html

 

 

my initial assumption was the F4U-7 is equal to the AU-1 minus the instruments reading.

but more and more information poured out and thanks to that link which we can hardly dispute, it claim the F4U-7 is an F4U-4 with an AU-1 frame, which backs it up by saying it used the R-2800-18W(given to the -4 variant).

 

and as per this sentence " The Corsair thus completed the cycle: from fighter to dive-bomber, to fighter-bomber, to attack plane, and back to fighter. " we could say that the F4U-7 is more of a fighter than an attacker(but should retain more armor than F4U-4).

 

so i decided that maybe the patriotic militant french had written something different about it in the wiki wage and i wasn't wrong,

 

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_Vought_F4U_Corsair

 

however the engine between -4 and -7 are almost identical(the -7 seemingly got the recent Variant but they produce almost equal 2100 HP), so we could safely assume that the F4U-7 is an F4U-4 with an AU-1 frame

 

so yes i am convinced the F4U-7 should have identical Compressor stats to the F4U-4

 

BUT, remains one issue, why does the F4U-4B has better engine performance?, nothing says it got an engine upgrade

 

https://www.vought.org/products/html/f4u-4.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

1 hour ago, blackbeard_teach said:

my initial assumption was the F4U-7 is equal to the AU-1 minus the instruments reading.

but more and more information poured out and thanks to that link which we can hardly dispute, it claim the F4U-7 is an F4U-4 with an AU-1 frame, which backs it up by saying it used the R-2800-18W(given to the -4 variant).

 

and as per this sentence " The Corsair thus completed the cycle: from fighter to dive-bomber, to fighter-bomber, to attack plane, and back to fighter. " we could say that the F4U-7 is more of a fighter than an attacker(but should retain more armor than F4U-4).

 

so i decided that maybe the patriotic militant french had written something different about it in the wiki wage and i wasn't wrong,

 

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_Vought_F4U_Corsair

 

however the engine between -4 and -7 are almost identical(the -7 seemingly got the recent Variant but they produce almost equal 2100 HP), so we could safely assume that the F4U-7 is an F4U-4 with an AU-1 frame

 

so yes i am convinced the F4U-7 should have identical Compressor stats to the F4U-4

 

BUT, remains one issue, why does the F4U-4B has better engine performance?, nothing says it got an engine upgrade

 

https://www.vought.org/products/html/f4u-4.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Might be something like how the P-47D-28 somehow performs better than the D-25 despite the only irl difference being the addition of a compass or something like that? I dunno, actually.

 

If not, it might be something like how the R-2800-8W engine on the F4U-1A is somehow worse than the F4U-1D, despite being the same engine.

[blastedryan 937]

1 hour ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

Might be something like how the P-47D-28 somehow performs better than the D-25

Yes both the D28 and the F4U-4B are using higher octane fuel.than their lesser counterpart.

[blackbeard_teach 39]

44 minutes ago, blastedryan said:

Yes both the D28 and the F4U-4B are using higher octane fuel.than their lesser counterpart.

please please don't

why are they specifically using a premium fuel....!!!

 

i ran away from world of tank only for them to be using the same strategy? buy better consumables and not only your crew get fixed faster, but chances of them being injured reduced!!

 

i ran away from that.....

 

so now you telling, that they used a "better" fuel to justify the improved performance? what next? sell it to us?

 

in fact, flash news, the 4B wasn't liked as much as the 4, simply because the Cannons were an overkill, less accurate and less ammo, and they preferred the 50cals against japanese.

 

so in order to not give it the same BR? they simply claim the engine had been given better fuel?

 

 

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

8 minutes ago, blackbeard_teach said:

please please don't

why are they specifically using a premium fuel....!!!

 

i ran away from world of tank only for them to be using the same strategy? buy better consumables and not only your crew get fixed faster, but chances of them being injured reduced!!

 

i ran away from that.....

 

so now you telling, that they used a "better" fuel to justify the improved performance? what next? sell it to us?

 

in fact, flash news, the 4B wasn't liked as much as the 4, simply because the Cannons were an overkill, less accurate and less ammo, and they preferred the 50cals against japanese.

 

so in order to not give it the same BR? they simply claim the engine had been given better fuel?

 

 

 

It's not a consumable. They just improved the performance straight up. With the D-28, they raised it up .3 of a BR to 4.7.

 

WIth the F4U-1D, they felt it was justified to put it up to 3.7 despite having similar performance to the 3.3 F4U-1A (USMC). It might climb better, but I haven't played the 1D enough to know.

 

1 hour ago, blastedryan said:

Yes both the D28 and the F4U-4B are using higher octane fuel.than their lesser counterpart.

 

Although that doesn't explain how the D-28 does better at a lower altitude than the 25... but then I'm dumb and also quite unaware of engines and how they work :/

 

 

[blastedryan 937]

15 minutes ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

that doesn't explain how the D-28 does better at a lower altitude than the 25...

Higher octance means more power out of the same amount of fuel regardless of altitude.

 

31 minutes ago, blackbeard_teach said:

they simply claim the engine had been given better fuel

It did get better fuel. The F4U-4 could run on 2 different blends of fuel. The 'premium' fuel was developed later so the later plane gets it.

 

As for why the earlier plane can't get upgraded to the newer fuel is a game design decision.

[blackbeard_teach 39]

2 hours ago, blastedryan said:

Higher octance means more power out of the same amount of fuel regardless of altitude.

 

It did get better fuel. The F4U-4 could run on 2 different blends of fuel. The 'premium' fuel was developed later so the later plane gets it.

 

As for why the earlier plane can't get upgraded to the newer fuel is a game design decision.

alright, here is my dum dum brain thought process

 

>why is the the -4 and -4B have different horsepower despite being identical?

*because they gave the -4B better fuel

>oh you mean historically or something they added for Balance?

*for Balance sake

>so their reason for BR boost was because it was superior because they themselves gave it better fuel?

*pretty much yes

>so the thing that made me run away from world of tank is possible to occurs in war-thunder? where planes are given engine boost  for either Golden eagles or Massive ammount of Silver lions, which is a not far fetched reliability considering Tencent.

 

did i get anything wrong?

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

5 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

alright, here is my dum dum brain thought process

 

>why is the the -4 and -4B have different horsepower despite being identical?

*because they gave the -4B better fuel

>oh you mean historically or something they added for Balance?

*for Balance sake

>so their reason for BR boost was because it was superior because they themselves gave it better fuel?

*pretty much yes

>so the thing that made me run away from world of tank is possible to occurs in war-thunder? where planes are given engine boost  for either Golden eagles or Massive ammount of Silver lions, which is a not far fetched reliability considering Tencent.

 

did i get anything wrong?

 

not massive amounts of SL. 150 octane fuel et cetera is not a premium modification. In the british tree you get planes with a 150 octane fuel upgrade. It's a tier IV modification and it's neither costly in terms of SL nor is it a GE modification.

 

In the US tree it's just that they made planes with better fuel just represent later modifications of planes. You just need to research and buy new planes which happen to also run an engine with better fuel as well as having better performance/armament/whatever.

9 hours ago, blastedryan said:

Higher octance means more power out of the same amount of fuel regardless of altitude.

 

Yeah, but the P-47D-28's R-2800-59 caps at 7K metres while the D-25's caps at 9K metres. susso much?

[blastedryan 937]

2 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

Yeah, but the P-47D-28's R-2800-59 caps at 7K metres while the D-25's caps at 9K metres. susso much?

As I understand it, the point of higher octane is to increase compression. Since they're not going to change the engine cylinder to compress the same amount of fuel more, they add more fuel and air so you compress more with the same cylinder. Since they increase the air used then the engine "runs out of air" at a lower altitude.

[blackbeard_teach 39]

5 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

 

not massive amounts of SL. 150 octane fuel et cetera is not a premium modification. In the british tree you get planes with a 150 octane fuel upgrade. It's a tier IV modification and it's neither costly in terms of SL nor is it a GE modification.

 

In the US tree it's just that they made planes with better fuel just represent later modifications of planes. You just need to research and buy new planes which happen to also run an engine with better fuel as well as having better performance/armament/whatever.

 

 

no no no, you don't understand, i came from world of tanks before warthunder because of the barrage of things that made me hate it.

 

one of them was consumables

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Consumables#Automatic_Fire_Extinguisher

 

50 golds or 20Ksilver, SL is mostly used as gold is better saved for garage spaces or other items, now in order to get sustainable amount of silver lion the account NEEDS to be premium otherwise you will run out of cash in down-tiered battle losses.

 

world of tanks favored vehicle tempering Balancing over historical accuracy, the Russian and Chinese T-34-85 is a fine example on how they handle identical tanks

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:Ch20_Type58

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:R07_T-34-85

same tanks, but the Chinese one was given different stats, even at one point they made it Russian exclusive to have governor speed removed from their engines, no other nation had it.

 

so i am having the same issue with identical airplanes, world of tanks give you multiple variants in one Tank(t-34 have 3 76mm and the 57mm) while war-thunder let you research each variant which something i hate(unless they can prove that it got marginally better), some aircraft's do however have gun modification, mainly the german or early Japanese planes which gives you the option between 4 gun configuration(check out the Ki-43-I, i liked that model)

 

so the -4 and 4B should be identical in engine performance.

 

and btw, Russian planes get the octane upgrade in modification.

 

Ps: i might add something on your Ultimate guide to guns and bombs later on

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

18 hours ago, blastedryan said:

As I understand it, the point of higher octane is to increase compression. Since they're not going to change the engine cylinder to compress the same amount of fuel more, they add more fuel and air so you compress more with the same cylinder. Since they increase the air used then the engine "runs out of air" at a lower altitude.

 

...

 

*insert Mind Blown gif here*

 

13 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

*insert all the World Of Tanks stuff here*

 

Ohhh, OK, I see. sorry, I haven't played WoT or WoWp or WoWs before. sorry!

 

(Also, slightly off topic, but I just visited the WoT wiki- how is the cromwell even CONSIDERED to be  CLOSE to being on-par with the T-34-85 & M4 Easy Eight? *insert swearing-filled rant here*)

 

13 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

Ps: i might add something on your Ultimate guide to guns and bombs later on

And what was that? Me and the team have finalised the format for the base Gun comparison page and I'll be working on ammo comparison soon.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Aussie_Mantis

[blackbeard_teach 39]

On 13/11/2019 at 16:18, Aussie_Mantis said:

 

Ohhh, OK, I see. sorry, I haven't played WoT or WoWp or WoWs before. sorry!

i did'nt run away from p2w to a p2s so it will become a P2W too, i utterly hate this idea.

On 13/11/2019 at 16:18, Aussie_Mantis said:

 

 

 

(Also, slightly off topic, but I just visited the WoT wiki- how is the cromwell even CONSIDERED to be  CLOSE to being on-par with the T-34-85 & M4 Easy Eight? *insert swearing-filled rant here*)

 

like i said, World of tank values balance than historical accuracy, while warthunder offsets it with how will performs(see Japanese premium boat and Italian anti air scout car, they both pretty modern yet meet WWII stuff).

still, B-17E should'nt meet jets at all to keep reasonable...

hell, even the maus in WOT meets 1960s tanks since forever

but back into topic,seems the devs decided to balance vehicle with in game modification similar to War-thunder health and armor value change, i pray it does'nt change further than.

i might edit the original to avoid any further confusion for future visitors asking about the F4U-7

 

 

[Aussie_Mantis 138]

here's a good question:

 

How come the F4U-7 gets a worse engine, the same protective layout and the like but gets ganked to 6.0 where it faces jets? Surely the payload isn't worth the ganking.

[VehicIe 1,850]

10 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

here's a good question:

 

How come the F4U-7 gets a worse engine, the same protective layout and the like but gets ganked to 6.0 where it faces jets? Surely the payload isn't worth the ganking.

The French F4U-7 still has better performance at higher altitude over the American F4U-4B and the payload with the Matra SNEBs rockets is absolutely devastating if used in combined ground battles.

It's also worth noting that it has a relatively low repair cost compared to the F4U-4B has it around 27K... 

[blackbeard_teach 39]

11 hours ago, WaImart said:

The French F4U-7 still has better performance at higher altitude over the American F4U-4B and the payload with the Matra SNEBs rockets is absolutely devastating if used in combined ground battles.

It's also worth noting that it has a relatively low repair cost compared to the F4U-4B has it around 27K... 

did someone yank the carpet under me without knowing? thank god there is a history of changes.....
anyhow, the ingame-wiki page of F4U-4b was modified since 6th of nov 2019, it Claim there is no Compressor sitting for 7000 or in general third compressor setting is not active.

 

which is supposedly in-correct as the F4U-4B has identical engine to -4 and the -7 seems to have more modern engine but Devs decided to give it(-4B) engine performance using Octane fuel, i am unsure the whole history behind the plane game development phase, but the F4U-4B was disliked by American pilots as the 12mm were more preferable than 20mm in real life.

 

so again, the F4U-7 is an F4U-5 with an F4U-4 engine.

 

however the jump in BR is cannons+bigger payload(that "multirole" can take out a base), in fact most Italian plane get a jump in Br when they are fitted with German guns.