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Bones to pick with the Vc/trop wiki article


https://wiki.warthunder.com/Spitfire_Mk_Vc/trop

 

Hi!


Sooooo lately I've taken the big step from piddling about in below 4.0 fighters (due to my propensity to die in them) and I've started fiddling about with the Vc/trop (I don't like the F IX and I don't have the skills to actually do well in the 5.7 BR bracket... yet.). I found some things in the article I want to argue about and I want to see if y'all agree.

 

  • Bleeds speed "quickly"

The Vc doesn't bleed speed quickly unless you go into a  turn over 450km/h, in which case it will. Below that, it has above average energy retention. Hell, I need to deliberately slow down when I'm turning against an Fw-190 who're on full WEP and just dived on me to not overshoot him! Below 400km/h speed bleed drops considerably, and if you exploit the vertical sufficiently with Split-S maneuvers ETC. then you should have no problem with speed or anything like that.

  • "Poor" Acceleration

From my point of view, it doesn't seem poor. Below 300 it accelerates really quickly to round 424km/h ish.

  • "very high" repair cost

Subjective. But seeing as the max repair cost is now ~8K SL (7932SL) and the sL multiplier has been nearly untouched (370% as opposed to the old 380%) I think it's safe to assume that not much has changed. Seeing as I used to make just over 8K when I got one assist and nothing else i.e. I died and my team lost I still broke even. So... yeah.

  • "No bomb options unlike other similar-BR Spitfire variants"

Is this really a significant disadvantage? Only two tech tree spitfires in the 3.7-5.0 range that this plane usually fights in carry bombs- and those are the Spit F Mk IX and the Spit F XVI. That's two out of five, and plus, nobody carries bombs on a spitfire anyway.

 

On another note, the Vc should be able to carry two 250lbs bombs I think.

  • "Bad" roll rate for a fighter

Is it really that bad, though? I think it's at least mediocre, and at best good. but not excellent.

 

Also, why does it say nothing about turn time? The Vc/trop is the best-performing Spitfire V and out-performs the F IX at low-altitude turnfights, and is ridiculously good at getting snapshots.

 

On another note, shouldn't this plane be an L.F. Mark Vc/trop? It's got the "cropped" Merlin 45M, which was equipped on L.F. aircraft. I don't think the "e" type rule applies here (because no clipped wing, and I'm pretty sure that was a Type E wing for the Mark Vs)

Edited by Aussie_Mantis
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5 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

I found some things in the article I want to argue about and I want to see if y'all agree.

 

Hello, no need to argue, but we can have a spirited discussion :D 

 I respect your write up, it goes beyond just "...this wikipage is brkn, fix pls!". While there are many statements on the vehicle pages which say "Good this", "Fantastic that", "Underwhelming something else", that is great to get a general idea when skimming the article, but what is missing a lot of the time is what information backs up those statements. What you presented above is much of the "why" which is very helpful, especially to new players to the vehicle or those struggling to figure out its quirks. Who knows, maybe the person who wrote the initial information had a bad experience with the aircraft and wrote from that.

 

With the experience you have gained not just playing this aircraft, but studying out specific points of how it works, where it works well, where it begins to choke...all that information is relevant to the wiki article and will help it not only become more interesting, but will be more helpful for those coming to the page to glean information to help them in their flights (or with tanks and ships too). 

 

5 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:
  • Bleeds speed "quickly"

The Vc doesn't bleed speed quickly unless you go into a  turn over 450km/h, in which case it will. Below that, it has above average energy retention. Hell, I need to deliberately slow down when I'm turning against an Fw-190 who're on full WEP and just dived on me to not overshoot him! Below 400km/h speed bleed drops considerably, and if you exploit the vertical sufficiently with Split-S maneuvers ETC. then you should have no problem with speed or anything like that.

 

This can be a good example of where an explanation can help out. The statement "The Vc also bleeds speed extremely quickly" can be updated with the information you have and you can change it to something like:

 

"Speed in the Spitfire can be a challenge to reign in, especially when trying to prevent overshoot an enemy aircraft. Unless you are trying to deliberately bleed speed, do not enter into turning maneuvers above 450 kph, instead utilize maneuvers such as the Immelmann or a Split-S to change directions while maintaining speed and energy. The Spitfire Vc tends to become more energy efficient in turns below 400 kph and can more productively turn-fight compared to when it is flying at higher speeds." 

 

I am sure there is still work to do with that statement, from your experience you could probably flesh it out better, but the intent is to make a statement "Speed is a problem in this aircraft", then explain why this statement is true:  1) Turning at high rates of speed bleeds energy, 2) Turning at lower rates of speed conserves energy, 3) During vertical maneuvers, energy retention is not a problem and pepper it with information you have gathered through personal experience. 

 

Also...

5 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

nobody carries bombs on a spitfire anyway.

 

 

...well, I might give it a try not knowing any better, who doesn't like to drop some bombs??  They definitely won't help the maneuverability though...but that is a good point, explain why it is best that this plane does not carry bombs, maybe point the reader to a few aircraft within the battle rating which can take on the fighter-bomber role in which they might be more interested in, might help someone bypass an aircraft they don't love and stay with those which they might like better instead of hitting a brick wall and giving up on the tech tree.

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1 hour ago, AN_TRN_26 said:

This can be a good example of where an explanation can help out. The statement "The Vc also bleeds speed extremely quickly" can be updated with the information you have and you can change it to something like:

 

"Speed in the Spitfire can be a challenge to reign in, especially when trying to prevent overshoot an enemy aircraft. Unless you are trying to deliberately bleed speed, do not enter into turning maneuvers above 450 kph, instead utilize maneuvers such as the Immelmann or a Split-S to change directions while maintaining speed and energy. The Spitfire Vc tends to become more energy efficient in turns below 400 kph and can more productively turn-fight compared to when it is flying at higher speeds." 

 

Will do. The Vc/trop actually dives decently and gains speed pretty well. in addition, it head-ons things like it's nobody else's buisness. I fragged a Me-410 and a he-219 in short order with the air targs belts.

 

1 hour ago, AN_TRN_26 said:

...well, I might give it a try not knowing any better, who doesn't like to drop some bombs??  They definitely won't help the maneuverability though...but that is a good point, explain why it is best that this plane does not carry bombs, maybe point the reader to a few aircraft within the battle rating which can take on the fighter-bomber role in which they might be more interested in, might help someone bypass an aircraft they don't love and stay with those which they might like better instead of hitting a brick wall and giving up on the tech tree.

 

well... do you really want to be carrying the worst 250lbs bombs in the game around with you? 

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22 minutes ago, FlyingAce2019 said:

Kinda off-topic, but whenever I see a Spitfire Vc in my 109 G-10, I get happy and scream --------------------! because that thing is heavily overtiered, and why would a Fw 190 be turnfighting? I mean, the pilot must be that stupid to turnfight in it AGAINST A SPITFIRE.

Re the 109G-10, I'm talking the Spit Vc/trop (4.3), and I've killed a lot of G-6s who think that climbing up while I'm at close range is a good idea. But people do it. I head-on them and shred them, or nail them in a deflection fight. They kinda underestimate the Vc/trop's power because it's a 4.3. Same goes for... well, too many G-14s and G-10s who think that they're better than the spit Vc in an energy fight or a head-on. Unlike the Vc at 4.7, the 4.3 Vc/trop almost never gets uptiered into 5.3 (although 4.7 and 5.0 uptiers are common).

 

Re Fw-190s: they think they can out energy-retention it. arguably, they can.

 

If it was an F Mark IX. Pilots whose intelligence has been called into question are usually using Fw-190As, which easily can run rings around spitfire Vbs at this BR. But the Vc/trop is different. Trust me. It is.

 

And I agree- the 4.7 Vc is an overtiered mess.

Edited by Aussie_Mantis
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OK, I'm back with some screenshots from yesterday (I haven't managed to re-watch my replays)

 

Fw-190 thinking he can outspeed me (he can)

Screenshot_1397.png

 

but I just got out of a dive. I had energy & the spitfire Vc/trop's energy retention below 400 is magnificent.

 

Screenshot_1399.png

 

Crack. Fuel leaked and ignited.

 

Screenshot_1398.png

 

down in flames.

 

same game. Fw-190A-something this time. He can out-turn me but also has theoretically better energy retention. we head-onned first and he zipped past. I get no hits. He goes for another guy, and kills him. So I decide to be the "hero" and go for him. I had a slight altitude advantage (300-400 metres). I put my spit into a shallow dive.

 

Screenshot_1400.png

 

I don't even turn much. I just let him do the turning for me.

 

I miss three four-round bursts until this happens:

Screenshot_1401.png

 

Bf-109 thought he could out-loop me:

Screenshot_1396.png

 

but I just exited a dive and had a lot of spare IAS in the bank. So this happened:

 

Screenshot_1395.png

 

If you can bleed enough speed from a spit Vc/trop (get it below 280km/h) then you can make it easy meat, but not until then.

Edited by Aussie_Mantis
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