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Centurion MK10 Changes


On 19/11/2019 at 22:00, Baron_Tiberius said:

afaik, L36 is from 1963 and L52 is from 1973. I think a later centurion would be more appropriate for getting the later APDS rounds and something like a Vicker's Mk.3i for L64A4 (afaik the 3i would be vaguely comparable to an A1A1 in speed, armour and penetration).

 

The L36 seems to be a little earlier. Perhaps late 1950s? The American completed making changes and adopt as their own by 1961.

Quote

 

In 1961 the L36 became the M392, which had fully American standard features (primer, tracer, etc.) and was produced in America thereafter. Functionally, the L28, L36, and M392 are the same thing, with minor variations. Later versions of the M392, the A1 a... (claims source from Tank Net)

http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/105ammo.htm

 

 

About the L52... is there any source/photo suggesting the British actually used it?

AFAIK it was an early 1970s round as I have read "it was not available in time to the IDF for Yom Kippur War, they had to use L36A1" in 1973, so it was possibly available some time before that war.

 

British Army in Germany starting switching to Chieftains in 1964 and completed in a few years. The Centurions found in Germany afterward were mostly Canadian.

The last new production of Centurion ended in late 1950s and the last upgrade (Mk.13) took place early 1960s. As MoD expected to replace all with Chieftains by early 1970s, perhaps they didn't order the round?

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The L7 itself was only introduced on the Centurion in 1959 (with trials in 1956).

 

AFAIK L36 is just L28 adapted for the americans, and in american inventory it is named M392 (so all 3 are identical) however information on this ammo is scarce. The only date I've found for the ammo is Steel Beasts which can be a dubious source at best, but the dates seem generally correct. (edit: you'll note in game that L28 and M392 are the same).

 

L52 was the true upgrade round and featured the same tilt-cap design as the L15 apds round found on the 120mm L11. Given that the final production variant of the chieftain was around 1975 it seems likely that the non-specialist centurion was retired somewhere around that time - though i cannot narrow down an actual date.

 

Edited by Baron_Tiberius
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16 hours ago, Baron_Tiberius said:

The L7 itself was only introduced on the Centurion in 1959 (with trials in 1956).

True. The weapons development was very fast in the period though, the L36 might came up in just a year or two after the L28.

 

16 hours ago, Baron_Tiberius said:

AFAIK L36 is just L28 adapted for the americans, and in american inventory it is named M392 (so all 3 are identical) however information on this ammo is scarce. The only date I've found for the ammo is Steel Beasts which can be a dubious source at best, but the dates seem generally correct. (edit: you'll note in game that L28 and M392 are the same).

According to this source L36A1 = M392 (All British rounds start with A1).

http://bulletpicker.com/cartridge_-105mm-apds-t_-m392a.html

 

From some source the L36 is simply L28 with tracer added along with other minor changes. Not sure if the penetration remains the same.

German DM13 is also marked L28A1. It has no tracer.

https://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?6056-105mm-x-617-APDS-T-DM13-or-L28A1(B1)-cartridge&s=61c3e9cd89aada9ecbd693f27fc37bc9

 

16 hours ago, Baron_Tiberius said:

L52 was the true upgrade round and featured the same tilt-cap design as the L15 apds round found on the 120mm L11. Given that the final production variant of the chieftain was around 1975 it seems likely that the non-specialist centurion was retired somewhere around that time - though i cannot narrow down an actual date.

From the information I gathered from veterans (not 100% reliable), all Centurion gun tanks retired in the early 1970s.

One last event I know was in 1973, when the B Squadron of the 14th/20th King's Hussars pulled their Centurions out of storage and performed an exercise with Gurkha infantry in Hong Kong. The tanks were cleaned and sealed to ship back to the UK in 1974.

 

Some 105mm Centurion continued to serve as artillery outpost or AVRE. Not sure if the AOP carried rounds and only HESH is confirmed to be issued to AVRE tanks.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Fully fed up with this crap. Been months since the trunnion block was bug reported and since then they NERFED the mantlet and still haven't implemented the thing. It's called a resilient mantlet for a reason, and it's not because the thing is weaker than that on the Centurion MK3 for crying out loud.

@Smin1080p is there any reason why this has taken so long to be corrected or is it simply never going to happen like 80% of bug reports nowadays?

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On 18/12/2019 at 20:21, JG3_Luftwaffle said:

Fully fed up with this crap. Been months since the trunnion block was bug reported and since then they NERFED the mantlet and still haven't implemented the thing. It's called a resilient mantlet for a reason, and it's not because the thing is weaker than that on the Centurion MK3 for crying out loud.

@Smin1080p is there any reason why this has taken so long to be corrected or is it simply never going to happen like 80% of bug reports nowadays?

A few months is still pretty young for a bug report, most have been around for years 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 20/12/2019 at 07:54, *Hurricanefire32 said:

A few months is still pretty young for a bug report, most have been around for years 

 

and in those cases, they will likely never be addressed unless new interest has been piqued in the subject for some unknown reason

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  • 2 months later...

Well we are in APRIL of 2020 and the dammed trunnion block (that the cent mk3 has in game) is not modelled yet, oh and the Cent mk10 also has a spall shield behind the trunnion block, some more 20mm spaced armor, it is in the bug report.

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20 hours ago, *Maj_Fox said:

I must be doing something wrong.

 

I stuggled when this vehicle was BR 7.0 and now it's BR7.7, am I missing something?

 

Cheers

in order to get to rank V Britain, you have to not suck, and so therefore the raw stats are better for the vehicle than they have any right to be. This caused gaijin to uptier them beyond what would have been considered necessary

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  • 10 months later...
On 07/10/2019 at 02:18, Baron_Tiberius said:

There is a document in the archives at Kew about the Mk 8 Resilient Mantlet that should confirm the existence and specifications of the trunnion block. The photo of it above is from this document, but is fairly useless if its thickness and steel grade are not known.

I've seen not knowing the precise data as an excuse for not changing the model before... Surely evidence that there WAS a trunion block means that any reasonable estimate for the game model is better than no trunion block at all... (just mark it as a placeholder somewhere, just in case the documents become availible in the future or someone manages to measure the block on a real example).
There is literally a mk.3 that's cut in half in bovington that you can walk between and probably measure with a ruler, so in the absense of better data, just use that thickness as a placeholder.
rw623cwbp0e51.jpg
Okay it's not 100% accurate but they originally modelled it with a 200mm mantlet, so Gaijin are clearly not adhereing to the burden of proof they demand for fixes and are happy with a guess in the absence of better data. Why make the bar so much higher to get something changed when we at least have proof that it's wrong?

I do actually remember an episode from a tank restoration show that was on TV a long time ago where they were converting a mk.5/2 centurion (with the 105mm gun) back to it's original mk.3 configuration with a 20-pounder off another vehicle and I don't think they swapped out the trunion so it's quite possible it's the same, if not a very similar part on the mk.10. I managed to find the clip:
https://youtu.be/5aO3nqnmIXQ?t=1351
It looks like the 105mm was designed to fit the mountings of the 84mm, so it's not a bad place to start from.

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On 18/10/2019 at 13:34, TheFuzzieOne said:

 

They struggle against T-54s, more than they should. Centurion Mk10s should be lolpenning them through the frontal hull from around 2k away if it was historically correct.

 

Currently they have a gimped shadow of what the L7 really was, and struggle to get kills with needle damage APDS that just yellows things, so it's not even down to personal aim but pure RNG.

image.thumb.png.a724aa2ca2429b17c4efa8e6
The problem is de-normalization, the opposite of normalization aka "magic APCBC and APHE (capped) shells from Soviet and German tanks that pen any angled armour" because the shell turns towards the armour slightly, decreasing the effective angle, and so the effective thickness of armour. (I think most armour-piercing capped shells do this but the Soviet ones have a secret blend of 11 herbs and spices that makes them normalize more for some reason...) The whole subject seems to involve a lot of speculation, and in game is likely some form of angle modifier so it is possible to work out what Gaijin used as their modifier for the L7 105mm APDS.
The upper glacis of the T-54 is 100mm sloped at 60 degrees, which gives a line-of-sight thickness of 200mm (it's x2 at 60 degrees, x3 at 70-71 degrees, x4 at 76 degrees etc.)
But the protection analysis tool says it's 260mm effective thickness... 2.6x is equivalent to 67-67.5 degrees, so subtracting the original armour angle we get a de-normalization angle of 7-7.5 degrees (against a 60 degree plate, so about 12.5%).
While at 2km the shell is at the threshold of perforation, any horizontal angle or backwards slope will make this shell not go through. I'm not sure at what distance the L7 should defeat the armour of the T-54, but there's the numbers to work from.

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/02/2021 at 23:54, DaemonBlackfyre said:

 Soviet ones have a secret blend of 11 herbs and spices 

 

LOL this is Gold 

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