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CookieMonster_24

British 6.7 stupidity

So I've made a few threads on this one before, one of the staff members in a pm told me to visit the forums...... nothing ever happens as a result of these posts, devs don't respect my time, I don't respect them, so I continue to be f2p free loader.

Anyways,

So I was in a chat in game about how german 6.7 is op. My American team kept on telling me that the tiger 2 is easy to kill, just shoot the right side of the turret for easy ammo rack. Well that never happens, I can recall it happening less than 5 times with mk3 apds, in roughly 1,000 spawns of british vehicles carrying the round. So to kill a tiger 2 frontally I need 3 well placed shots. For the tiger 2 its one shot for every single british 6.7, they don't even need to be that well placed. Cent mk3 can be carelessly one shotted, same with the fv4202 (except if its hull down, then a shot to the cheeks or cupola will ohk it.) Caernarvon, through the turret or lfp, pretty much anywhere but the ufp. Charioteer, any where..... that's not really the point of the vehicle though. Any vehicle that cannot efficiently kill is at a disadvantage all of the time, apds in a nutshell.

There are a few simple things that could be changed to put the british tanks at 6.7 in a competitive state.

1. Buff apds post pen, nerf aphe. APHE post pen is not the equivalent of detonating a bag of grenades in the middle of the crew compartment. An aphe shell to the fv4202 cupola shouldn't be able to kill the freaking driver.

2. Increase fv4202 reverse speed, its based on a centurion chassis why can't it have the same reverse speed? This is the largest problem with the fv4202 and the reason it isn't very effective hull down.

3. Buff fv4005 hesh, buff hesh in general. HESH is a joke right now.....

 

This wouldn't even make them strong, this simply makes them competitive, ask yourself gaijin, how do you balance vehicles? Statistics? Ever consider the fact the average British player is better than your average german players so it shouldn't be surprising to see the vehicles appear to perform them? This poor analyzing of data plagues the Japanese, British and french trees, why the trees have crap vehicles with high repair cost, stop listening to the delusional german player base, the tiger h1 at 5.3 should be enough to prove how much worse at the game the German player base is in comparison to other nations.

 

Don't even get me started on the chieftains and challengers..... or the stormer.

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One answer - it doesn't have the same reverse speed as the Centurion because it doesn't have the same reverse gear ratio - see 

 

so ~26.6:1 for the 4202 vs:

 

image.png.6d3cec8dc95c96c2ea3565afc4ad2b

 

~22.9 for the Cent

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20 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

One answer - it doesn't have the same reverse speed as the Centurion because it doesn't have the same reverse gear ratio - see 

 

so ~26.6:1 for the 4202 vs:

 

image.png.6d3cec8dc95c96c2ea3565afc4ad2b

 

~22.9 for the Cent

ooof, I don't see why they can't give it a better one, they are perfectly willing to give the challenger rounds it didn't fire, apparently in gaijin's mind historical accuracy can be bent for balance....

 

Edit: the post linked said it was faster than in game, any improvement helps.

Edited by CookieMonster_24
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I understand your grief and i know very well how crap APDS can be or mostly is. But the problem is if APDS damage gets buffed significantly, there will be no more british tanks at 6.7 because they wouldn't belong there anymore.

The british tech tree is borderline at this BR. Fully stabilized cannons with 280mm+ penetration, the L7 from the leopard 1 (without heat-fs) already at 7.0 that penetrates a king tiger frontplate. The only reason why they somehow CAN stay there is because the advantage of stabilized high penetration cannons is compensated by the xxxx damage output which forces you to shoot very precise.

The brits are very different in playstyle from the germans, russians or americans. You have the ability to land the first shot but it has to be 100% precise as a trade.

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1 minute ago, Rainbowprincess said:

I understand your grief and i know very well how crap APDS can be or mostly is. But the problem is if APDS damage gets buffed significantly, there will be no more british tanks at 6.7 because they wouldn't belong there anymore.

The british tech tree is borderline at this BR. Fully stabilized cannons with 280mm+ penetration, the L7 from the leopard 1 (without heat-fs) already at 7.0 that penetrates a king tiger frontplate. The only reason why they somehow CAN stay there is because the advantage of stabilized high penetration cannons is compensated by the xxxx damage output which forces you to shoot very precise.

The brits are very different in playstyle from the germans, russians or americans. You have the ability to land the first shot but it has to be 100% precise as a trade.

I never said they needed significant improvement, they are just slightly worse than they should be, the problem is they aren't effective. The armor and survivability would be balanced if the apds did something, im not saying it needs a significant buff, its extremely close to what it needs to be, it just always falls short. Its so close to being competitive but it's not quite there :(

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3 minutes ago, CookieMonster_24 said:

ooof, I don't see why they can't give it a better one, they are perfectly willing to give the challenger rounds it didn't fire, apparently in gaijin's mind historical accuracy can be bent for balance....

 

Yeah - some of us are fighting a losing rearguard for that old-fashioned concept called "historical accuracy"...:/

 

3 minutes ago, CookieMonster_24 said:

Edit: the post linked said it was faster than in game, any improvement helps.

 

Probably not so much as you'd notice it!!

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You're not alone in what you're finding. This is what every player who goes this line discovers. That APHE is broken in that it performs in advantageous ways it didn't in history (and has done forever with Gaijin sticking fingers in ears and LALALAing whenever it's reported)and APDS is equally broken to be a shadow of its real life power.

 

Basically, you're getting Gaijined, as most things in the British tree do. And they wonder why less people play it...

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7 hours ago, Rainbowprincess said:

I understand your grief and i know very well how crap APDS can be or mostly is. But the problem is if APDS damage gets buffed significantly, there will be no more british tanks at 6.7 because they wouldn't belong there anymore.

The british tech tree is borderline at this BR. Fully stabilized cannons with 280mm+ penetration, the L7 from the leopard 1 (without heat-fs) already at 7.0 that penetrates a king tiger frontplate. The only reason why they somehow CAN stay there is because the advantage of stabilized high penetration cannons is compensated by the xxxx damage output which forces you to shoot very precise.

The brits are very different in playstyle from the germans, russians or americans. You have the ability to land the first shot but it has to be 100% precise as a trade.

 

This is the answer right here. Not 6.7, but I just got done earning all the camos for the Cent Mk1, firing nothing but 17lb APDS...something crazy like 2.6 to 1 kill rate and 60% winrate, just dunking on Tigers and Panthers and Tiger IIPs while holding my own in full 6.7 uptiers. Not because I am so great but because the British guns are so good. If APDS was more powerful in terms of damage output, there's no way that tank could stay at 5.7.

 

APHE is hilariously effective but now as I start playing Brit 6.7 (played about 85 matches in the Strv81 years ago when I was new so I don't really count that), I don't find myself wishing I was in a Panther 2 or T-44 instead of a Centurion. I'll let you all know if that opinion changes in a few hundred matches :B10:

 

 

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8 hours ago, CookieMonster_24 said:

I never said they needed significant improvement, they are just slightly worse than they should be, the problem is they aren't effective. The armor and survivability would be balanced if the apds did something, im not saying it needs a significant buff, its extremely close to what it needs to be, it just always falls short. Its so close to being competitive but it's not quite there :(

Like I said, I fully understand you. My main nation for RB groundforces are the british. But instead giving APDS a buff, Gaijin should finally rework APHE. The basic mechanic how it works didn't change since ground forces came into war thunder. So instead of fiddling around all the time with newer ammo types, they finally should rework the eldest one.

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12 hours ago, CookieMonster_24 said:

that's not really the point of the vehicle though. Any vehicle that cannot efficiently kill is at a disadvantage all of the time, apds in a nutshell.

There are a few simple things that could be changed to put the british tanks at 6.7 in a competitive state.

1. Buff apds post pen, nerf aphe. APHE post pen is not the equivalent of detonating a bag of grenades in the middle of the crew compartment. An aphe shell to the fv4202 cupola shouldn't be able to kill the freaking driver.

I'm talking about this every time. And this is actual matter for entire British 3-4 rank.

Check the this guy's play for instance.

How much kills he managed to make with T25's APHE and how little with solid shots of Centuron.

21vs8! 

As long as British tanks will not be able to make fast kills just like other nations can,  they will ramain mediocre at best.

 

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1 hour ago, erilon03 said:

I'm talking about this every time. And this is actual matter for entire British 3-4 rank.

Check the this guy's play for instance.

How much kills he managed to make with T25's APHE and how little with solid shots of Centuron.

21vs8! 

As long as British tanks will not be able to make fast kills just like other nations can,  they will ramain mediocre at best.

 

 

Sure, APHE yields far more OHK, but I'm not convinced that showing arcade battles on point-blank range maps is a useful or fair way to compare the vehicles because due to the go-kart mobility, fast turrets, penetration indicator etc...shell type and armor layout are effectively the only major differences between the various tanks. In other words the design of the mode invalidates the other critical advantages that the British 6.7s bring to the fight in RB and probably SB as well.

 

In a situation where you're trying to hit moving targets at long distance or hit tiny weak spots at short range quickly without a hit marker, the stabilizer and flat trajectory of the APDS rounds make a big difference. In urban battles where there is no red nameplate to tell you exactly which tanks are around and you can get caught by surprise, being able to LOLpen most opponents through their strongest armor (Panthers LOL)...without even stopping in the case of the 6.7 tanks...is a huge advantage.

 

Yes, the APDS often fails to secure the kill in one shot, but IMO for my playstyle the benefits far outweigh the costs. If Gaijin buffed APDS damage substantially to make the knife-fighters happy, they'd end up having to raise the BRs of these tanks again and I don't want to see that at all.

 

 

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Just make commander dead = tank dead and all problems about poor post pen damage suddendly disappear.

 

It also prevents tanks with spaced out crew to soak up so many penetrating hits.

The commander commands the tank, which is basically the player. With the player dead he can't command a tank, sounds logical?

 

Now suddendly Cent Mk 3 can go head to head against T-54s like they should and have been IRL.

5.7-6.7 won't have Vietnam era light tanks since they can actually fight 7.7 tanks.

APCR will actually work against tanks, instead of trying to poke crew member dead one at a time and also makes slow reloading tank guns able to use APCR like the T29 and T34 which otherwise would take 30-45sec to take out a tank, even if every shot penetrates.

APDS will be mostly superior to HEAT-FS, just like IRL, becaues better velocity and post-pen damage.

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9 minutes ago, KillaKiwi said:

Just make commander dead = tank dead and all problems about poor post pen damage suddendly disappear.

 

It also prevents tanks with spaced out crew to soak up so many penetrating hits.

The commander commands the tank, which is basically the player. With the player dead he can't command a tank, sounds logical?

 

Now suddendly Cent Mk 3 can go head to head against T-54s like they should and have been IRL.

5.7-6.7 won't have Vietnam era light tanks since they can actually fight 7.7 tanks.

APCR will actually work against tanks, instead of trying to poke crew member dead one at a time and also makes slow reloading tank guns able to use APCR like the T29 and T34 which otherwise would take 30-45sec to take out a tank, even if every shot penetrates.

APDS will be mostly superior to HEAT-FS, just like IRL, becaues better velocity and post-pen damage.

 

Or even perhaps make it take a full minute to repair or swap crew members. That way getting a penetrating hit has greater consequences if still not always a OHK. If someone takes out your gunner and you have no friends around or are not in cover, you're toast. 

 

As it is now the only real complaint I have about APDS are the (thankfully uncommon) times where I kill the gunner but don't destroy the breech and for whatever reason I mismanage my follow-up and get shot in return by a guy that I generally outplayed.

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1 minute ago, KillaKiwi said:

Just make commander dead = tank dead and all problems about poor post pen damage suddendly disappear.

 

It also prevents tanks with spaced out crew to soak up so many penetrating hits.

The commander commands the tank, which is basically the player. With the player dead he can't command a tank, sounds logical?

 

Now suddendly Cent Mk 3 can go head to head against T-54s like they should and have been IRL.

5.7-6.7 won't have Vietnam era light tanks since they can actually fight 7.7 tanks.

APCR will actually work against tanks, instead of trying to poke crew member dead one at a time and also makes slow reloading tank guns able to use APCR like the T29 and T34 which otherwise would take 30-45sec to take out a tank, even if every shot penetrates.

APDS will be mostly superior to HEAT-FS, just like IRL, becaues better velocity and post-pen damage.

 

Many tanks don't have a commander(T-34 for example). I guess in such tanks it could be the gunner instead.

 

Maybe we can accept have some kind of morale system, where several penetrating hits in short span of time will cause the remaining crew to bail out? Like 2 hits in under 15 sec. 3 hits in 30sec, 4 hits 1 min. and when not taking fire it recovers at exponential rate, at first slowly then the top 50% of the morale meter in under 15 sec. (to make an example).

I know this looks like the much disliked here health point system, but honestly this is the best mechanic I can think of.

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With stabilisers and high-pen APDS at 6.7, the British have one of the absolute strongest line-ups. And the Germans suck at that BR, as confirmed by their 5.7-7.7 winrate. Believe me, you have it better than them with the current matchmaker and BRs, even with the questionable shell performance. Nonetheless, you are correct about HESH and APDS underperforming. They are, badly. But fixing this would require rebalancing all of British 6.7-7.7

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3 hours ago, KillaKiwi said:

Just make commander dead = tank dead and all problems about poor post pen damage suddendly disappear.

 

It also prevents tanks with spaced out crew to soak up so many penetrating hits.

The commander commands the tank, which is basically the player. With the player dead he can't command a tank, sounds logical?

 

Now suddendly Cent Mk 3 can go head to head against T-54s like they should and have been IRL.

5.7-6.7 won't have Vietnam era light tanks since they can actually fight 7.7 tanks.

APCR will actually work against tanks, instead of trying to poke crew member dead one at a time and also makes slow reloading tank guns able to use APCR like the T29 and T34 which otherwise would take 30-45sec to take out a tank, even if every shot penetrates.

APDS will be mostly superior to HEAT-FS, just like IRL, becaues better velocity and post-pen damage.

This would cause way too much cupola sniping. It might be realistic somewhat, but not good for the gameplay.

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15 hours ago, Panzerzwerg said:

This would cause way too much cupola sniping. It might be realistic somewhat, but not good for the gameplay.

Idk, it might seem that way but cupolas are already weakspots for many tanks. Also the main point is to make a lot of tanks more effective that don't rely on APHE.

With APHE you can already cupola snipe but a Tiger II, M46/47 etc shouldn't have to penetrate a T-54s turret mulitple times due to the low damage of APCR.

This change mostly buffs tanks/shells that are very unreliable in taking out tanks despite being able to pen their turrets from the front.

 

So I disagree that it would be bad for the gameplay. It would make tank BRs and fights a lot more realistic than the current mess of tanks that are suppose to fight with and against each other.

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9 minutes ago, KillaKiwi said:

Idk, it might seem that way but cupolas are already weakspots for many tanks. Also the main point is to make a lot of tanks more effective that don't rely on APHE.

With APHE you can already cupola snipe but a Tiger II, M46/47 etc shouldn't have to penetrate a T-54s turret mulitple times due to the low damage of APCR.

This change mostly buffs tanks/shells that are very unreliable in taking out tanks despite being able to pen their turrets from the front.

 

So I disagree that it would be bad for the gameplay. It would make tank BRs and fights a lot more realistic than the current mess of tanks that are suppose to fight with and against each other.

 

Then the gunner's view should become mandatory. Or reduce the accuracy in some other way because this will bring about a new absurd meta where the tank's BR is determined by how small and armoured it's cupola is.

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52 minutes ago, Peasant_wb said:

Then the gunner's view should become mandatory. Or reduce the accuracy in some other way because this will bring about a new absurd meta where the tank's BR is determined by how small and armoured it's cupola is.

I don't see how that would be relevant in-game. Except for tanks which are so well armored that the cupola is the only weakspot, cupola kills rarely happen.

Unless we are talking very close range.

However cupolas should offer advantages over tanks which don't have them. The most logical would be to greatly reduce the speed at which the 3rd person camera can be moved, which limits the awareness of tanks without cupolas. Or prevent the camera from being moved while the tank is on the move. Something like that.

 

I guess the problems solves itself, if we add the gunner to the equation. So in a three man turret, killing commander and gunner take out the tank, in a two man turret the commander is enough.

 

 

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On 10/09/2019 at 05:02, CookieMonster_24 said:

APHE post pen is not the equivalent of detonating a bag of grenades in the middle of the crew compartment.

It literally is.

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54 minutes ago, Taeblamees said:

It literally is.

It's not. A granade contains around 1/3 of explosives which creates a lot of small high velocity fragments all around it.

An APHE shell in comparison contains around 0.01-0.03% explosives which is just enough to break up the shell into a few large and small sized fragments, which all travel in the direction of the shell, basically creating a similiar fragmention pattern as regular AP shells penetrating armor.

Edited by KillaKiwi
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2 hours ago, KillaKiwi said:

It's not. A granade contains around 1/3 of explosives which creates a lot of small high velocity fragments all around it.

An APHE shell in comparison contains around 0.01-0.03% explosives which is just enough to break up the shell into a few large and small sized fragments, which all travel in the direction of the shell, basically creating a similiar fragmention pattern as regular AP shells penetrating armor.

PzGr 39 and 39/43 have about the same TNT equivalence as a modern attack/offensive grenade. Even if it would be only just enough to break up the shell into fragments (which will bounce around in a metal box) the pressure in an enclosed environment is going to create a few health concerns to say the least. These men (sitting in the turret for example) should be combat ineffective regardless if they get hit by the fragments. How reliable these shells were irl is another topic completly (but germans did manage to create more reliable APHE shells). Ofcourse you have very little change in effectiveness if you study small caliber unreliable APHE shells like brits in the interwar period.

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Don't understand how anyone can complain about Britain 6.7. It's amazing

 I personally think the caernarvon  is the best 6.7 in the game.  Just helped a mate grind through 6.7 brits he is now researching the conqueror.   It took him 2 days to grind them out without premium.  Nothing to complain about with this br

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2 hours ago, Razielkaine said:

Don't understand how anyone can complain about Britain 6.7. It's amazing

 I personally think the caernarvon  is the best 6.7 in the game.  Just helped a mate grind through 6.7 brits he is now researching the conqueror.   It took him 2 days to grind them out without premium.  Nothing to complain about with this br

 

Agree 100%

 

My advice to anyone playing them (not you specifically of course since you know all this already LOL):

 

You've just got to accept the fact that these tanks require somewhat more discipline than the tanks whose APHE shells deliver fast one-shot kills. There is a specific strategy to using the high-pen/fast-reload British guns:

 

1) Unless it is a casemate TD or a tank with a slow turret (where you can shoot out the driver or engine, then shoot again in safety) the first shot has got to eliminate the threat by killing the gunner or preferably destroying the breech. If the driver gets killed or the engine gets damaged that is a bonus. If an ammo rack goes up that is even a bigger bonus, but that is a foolish thing to rely on.

 

(Edit: that said, for tanks where the Gunner's compartment coincides with ammo racks, I have found APDS to be pretty reliable at cooking them off...better than HEAT).

 

2) The second shot needs to take into account which crew members are left...don't be a dope pouring shells into crew members who are already dead, LOL. Likewise, if all you did was kill the gunner on the first shot recognize that you generally only have one more shot before the gunner will be back in his seat. So you must either disable the gun hardware or secure the kill on shot #2. Be ready and willing to back into cover etc. if it is not working out. Which brings up the fact that you should plan your attacks with a fallback plan in place. Another pro idea is switching from APDS to AP for better damage output on the kill shot, but in practice I have not found myself actually doing that much. In theory it would be smart though (and save some SL :))

 

3) If you fail to kill the target in two shots, you are in danger. Just like in the old days where it was bad luck to light three people's cigarettes with one match (sniper would be sighted in by the third one), if you've been focused on one target long enough to aim a third shot chances are good that somebody else is aiming at you. Look around and/or back into cover. Be willing to take cover and live to fight another day.

 

4) Accept that getting assists is a fact of life. This is the trade-off for having guns that can pretty much hit and penetrate every time you fire, even at long range and against moving targets. By putting out a hail of fire and killing a crew member or damaging a module with a fleeting shot at a far-away tank that "gets away", you are still helping the team because that target will be an easier kill for a teammate moments later. And assists pay pretty well in terms of RP/SL/SP/Battle activity and all that.

 

*********

All of the above may seem to be too big of a hassle for some players, and that is fine...we all have different playstyles that we prefer. I personally love being able to snipe at long range and rip through heavily armored targets (like disassembling an IS-3 who thought he was safe to spawn camp a Charioteer with APDS...spoiler alert, it was not LOL) so the Brits are my favorite tree so far.

 

 

 

 

Edited by MattS93
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