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Panzer 61 SAMM  

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  1. 1. Would you like to see the Panzer 61 SAMM in the French Ground Forces Tree

    • Yes
      51
    • No (explain)
      12
  2. 2. How should the Panzer 61 SAMM be implemented in the French Ground Forces Tree?

    • Regular Tree
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    • Event Vehicle
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Panzer 61 SAMM 

7m66B14.jpg

Introduction:

Hello community members today I present to you the Panzer 61 SAMM, a modification of the famous Swiss Panzer 61 medium tank. For those unfamiliar with the tank the Panzer 61 was an indigenous Swiss design in the early 1960s that incorporated a Royal Ordnance L7 gun and a coaxial 20mm onto a mobile and well armored chassis. In 1968 a single example of the tank was given a two-plane stabilizer by the French defense firm SAMM in a joint Franco-Swiss effort to improve the tank's performance. In War Thunder the Panzer 61 SAMM has the potential to boost the French Ground Forces tree in its support of the AMX-30 series.

General History:

When originally conceived the Swiss Amy relied on a mix of export AMX-13s and license built German Hetzers both which were quickly becoming obsolescent as the Cold War drew on. Based on intelligence findings it was determined the current fleet of armored vehicles were no match for the Soviet T-54s requiring an entirely new design to not only match the Soviets but be compatible with the topography of Switzerland. A prototype called the Panzer 58 was produced in the late fifties where it was determined satisfactory by the army. A production line started shortly after due to the already massive investments of the government into the project with a British 20 Pounder gun being selected as primary armament alongside a coaxial auto-cannon. 10 tanks were produced before the Swiss Army decide to re-arm the tank with an 105mm L7 under the designation Panzer 61. The Panzer 61 would later undergo various upgrades to improve its overall performance including an upgraded power plant, sights and other features. By 1968 however the vehicle was considered relatively outdated and the Swiss government looked to modernize the existing chassis. The French defense firm SAMM offered a proposal to the army with a two-plane gun stabilizer and new hydraulic system for the turret. Later that same year a prototype was tested with satisfactory results however it was determined it would be optimal to pursue the purchase of the much better Panzer 68 instead. 

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Specifications:

 

Dimensions (L-W-H) 9.43m (6.78m without gun) x 3.08m x 2.72m
(30’9″ (22’2″) x 10’1″ x 8’9″ ft.in)
Total weight, battle ready: 38.2 Tonnes 
Crew : 4 (Driver, Commander, Gunner, Loader)
Propulsion: Mercedes-Benz 8 cylinder V diesel engine 630 hp
Suspensions: Bellville Washer rods with springs & hydraulic dampers
Top Speed 55 kph (31 mph) flat, 30 km/h (19 mph) off-road
Max operational Range 250 km (160 mi) cruise, mix road/off road
Armament

1 x 105 mm Royal Ordnance L7 (52 rounds)

1 x 20mm Coaxial 5TGK 20mm auto-cannon (240 rounds)

1 x 7.5mm M-51 machine gun (3000 rounds) Roof Mounted

Armour Top glacis front and turret 120 mm (5 in)

 

Supporting Evidence:

Spoiler

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Sources:

Edited by Private_Wolk
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Open for discussion. :salute:

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6 minutes ago, eleks12 said:

+1 as Premium/Gold in the German tree! :)

it have not much in common with germany outside name Panzer.

Edited by arczer25
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13 minutes ago, arczer25 said:

it have nothing in common with germany outside name Panzer.

That is not the reason why i choose Germany.

 

The reason is that if there is a civilization that must be choosen that they share the most with. I believe that is German speaking Nations.

Since from what i have been able o find on the big web. Its around 63% of Swiss that are native speaking german. and the others are French and Italian

 

And a Swiss tech tree will not be big enough on its own.

Edited by eleks12
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1 hour ago, eleks12 said:

The reason is that if there is a civilization that must be choosen that they share the most with. I believe that is German speaking Nations.

Since from what i have been able o find on the big web. Its around 63% of Swiss that are native speaking german. and the others are French and Italian

 

And a Swiss tech tree will not be big enough on its own.

Because they speak german doesn't make them germans. Try telling an alsatian, a swiss or an austrian that they are germans and you will make a lot of enemies.

This tank was made by Switzerland with help from France. Since they don't have enough tanks to make a tree, it should go to France. And if they have a tank that the germans helped develop then it should go to Germany. Easy as that.

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1 hour ago, eleks12 said:

That is not the reason why i choose Germany.

 

The reason is that if there is a civilization that must be choosen that they share the most with. I believe that is German speaking Nations.

Since from what i have been able o find on the big web. Its around 63% of Swiss that are native speaking german. and the others are French and Italian

 

And a Swiss tech tree will not be big enough on its own.

It is a French modification of the Panzer 61, it has nothing to do with Germany which is why I originally suggested it for the French tree. That said I personally feel it should be a premium for France just because it it still based off a Swiss design. If the Panzer 61 SAMM were part of a joint effort between Switzerland & Germany I would agree with you but it isn't so a no from me.

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2 hours ago, UrDidact said:

Because they speak german doesn't make them germans. Try telling an alsatian, a swiss or an austrian that they are germans and you will make a lot of enemies.

This tank was made by Switzerland with help from France. Since they don't have enough tanks to make a tree, it should go to France. And if they have a tank that the germans helped develop then it should go to Germany. Easy as that.

I never intended to offend anyone by saying that Swiss tanks should be in the German tree. I believed if someone saw that as a incorrect/silly comment that at least they would come to the conclusion that i just intended the Swiss tanks should have been in just 1 tree. And the Swiss tanks in RB would not fight eachother even though Ive seen Italian tanks on both sides in WT RB battles wich i want changed back.

But off course i should have been more clear in my original comments that i wanted all Swiss tanks inside another current tech tree which i sugguested Germany. :)

 

1 hour ago, Private_Wolk said:

It is a French modification of the Panzer 61, it has nothing to do with Germany which is why I originally suggested it for the French tree. That said I personally feel it should be a premium for France just because it it still based off a Swiss design. If the Panzer 61 SAMM were part of a joint effort between Switzerland & Germany I would agree with you but it isn't so a no from me.

of course it would make more sence that it should be in the French tree since its a French modification as stated in the suguestion! :)

However i would prefer that all Swiss tanks should be in only 1 tree. And i sugguested Germany. However if its France that all Swiss tanks go to im also fine with. I just dont wanna see the same nation fight itself in RB even though it is currently the case ingame.

Edited by eleks12
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7 hours ago, stefffff1871 said:

hm yes but not in the french tree

And which mystery tree would that be? There is simply no other tree in War Thunder that fits the description of this vehicle unless Gaijin has the interests to make a Swiss specific tree.

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6 hours ago, Private_Wolk said:

And which mystery tree would that be? There is simply no other tree in War Thunder that fits the description of this vehicle unless Gaijin has the interests to make a Swiss specific tree.

It wouldn't be that hard if Gaijingles didn't refused international tech tree

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  • 5 months later...
  • 2 months later...

+1

 

On 04/09/2019 at 03:48, *seadogpirate said:

for the german tree

 

what the

 

no

 

On 02/09/2019 at 05:07, WayOfTheWolk said:

In 1968 a single example of the tank was given a two-plane stabilizer by the French defense firm SAMM in a joint Franco-Swiss effort to improve the tank's performance.

just

 

 

no

 

in the french tree only (AND REGULAR)

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+1 for me love all the swiss tanks and there lil designs, Personally would like a swiss tree more knowing what could come out of that nation.... leo 140... mmh but knowing its landlocked ...yeh seems good enough and France needs something that has a stabiliser at the lower br.... 

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I'm not against the Panzer 61 being added to WT, however i am against the Panzer 61's being added to France, if anything i prefer if the Panzer 61's to be either in a independent Austro-Swiss TT or be in the Swedish TT and for several reasons

Firstly France has a lot of native tanks of their own (both protoypes and production vehicles) that can be added as event vehicles/ge premiums and France already has a GE premium in the form of a Panther tank, Sweden on the other hand currently only has pack vehicles as tank premiums. Secondly Switzerland is a neutral country while France is a major NATO member, Sweden (at least during the time of the Panzer 61's development and service life) is also a Neutral country so in terms of diplomatic/geopolitical stances it makes more sense for Swiss vehicles to be in the Swedish TT then in the French TT. Thirdly the whole "It Uses components from X country" argument doesn't work because it opens up a whole can of worms since by that logic the Panzer 61 is also viable for the British TT since it uses a British cannon and not a French one and said cannon is shared with all variants of the Panzer 61, even this variant, and is also viable for the German TT since it uses a engine built by Mercedes Benz, and again also used in most if not all Panzer 61 variants, also some countries uses equipment, even in their native designs from foreign countries even if the foreign country in question either embargoed them or even is at war with them. And fourthly, the Panzer 61 is a native design with the weapons and engine being of foreign origin and this particular variant only coincidentally uses some French equipment and Gaijin has a habit of making vehicles from minor foreign countries as being premiums (though in this case this particular Panzer 61 variant can get way with being a premium vehicle)

Tl-dr: there is more factors to consider to adding a vehicle then just adding because it uses some components from a certain country, there is also diplomatic/geopolitical stances to consider and also France already has a lot of native vehicles (and arguably more interesting vehicles) of their own to be added as GE premium/event vehicles

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1 hour ago, AspandaIV said:

I'm not against the Panzer 61 being added to WT, however i am against the Panzer 61's being added to France, if anything i prefer if the Panzer 61's to be either in a independent Austro-Swiss TT or be in the Swedish TT and for several reasons

Firstly France has a lot of native tanks of their own (both protoypes and production vehicles) that can be added as event vehicles/ge premiums and France already has a GE premium in the form of a Panther tank, Sweden on the other hand currently only has pack vehicles as tank premiums. Secondly Switzerland is a neutral country while France is a major NATO member, Sweden (at least during the time of the Panzer 61's development and service life) is also a Neutral country so in terms of diplomatic/geopolitical stances it makes more sense for Swiss vehicles to be in the Swedish TT then in the French TT. Thirdly the whole "It Uses components from X country" argument doesn't work because it opens up a whole can of worms since by that logic the Panzer 61 is also viable for the British TT since it uses a British cannon and not a French one and said cannon is shared with all variants of the Panzer 61, even this variant, and is also viable for the German TT since it uses a engine built by Mercedes Benz, and again also used in most if not all Panzer 61 variants, also some countries uses equipment, even in their native designs from foreign countries even if the foreign country in question either embargoed them or even is at war with them. And fourthly, the Panzer 61 is a native design with the weapons and engine being of foreign origin and this particular variant only coincidentally uses some French equipment and Gaijin has a habit of making vehicles from minor foreign countries as being premiums (though in this case this particular Panzer 61 variant can get way with being a premium vehicle)

Tl-dr: there is more factors to consider to adding a vehicle then just adding because it uses some components from a certain country, there is also diplomatic/geopolitical stances to consider and also France already has a lot of native vehicles (and arguably more interesting vehicles) of their own to be added as GE premium/event vehicles

I'm sorry but that's such a flawed mentality. By your standards Yugoslavia, a historically non-aligned country should also go into the Swedish tech tree despite having no actual cultural or political ties with one another. The same can be said for a whole bunch of other smaller powers that historically have maintained neutrality throughout their history. Second the Panzer 61 is a largely native Swiss design. Just because it used an Ordnance L7 gun is irrelevant, do you realize how many other countries have Incorporated the L7 into their designs, that doesn't make them British by default. I've suggested the Panzer 61 SAMM for the French because the stabilization prototype was done in cooperation by a French defense firm, SAMM and the Swiss Army. If a German or British company had been actively part of the process I would agree with you that France does not deserve the vehicle but once again this is not the case here. 

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