Elevencobi

Worried about the future of War Thunder

Let me start this off with something positive. I LOVE War Thunder. I love driving/flying all these awesome tanks and planes from throughout history. I love progressing through the ranks and getting more and more advanced vehicles and gettng to play with them all. And what War Thunder has accomplished is truly impressive. There are hundreds of unique vehicles in War Thunder, painstakingly made as realistic as possible within a gaming setting using historical documentation provided by both the dev team and the community. Whenever I complain, it's not because I hate the game and want to see it burn. I want to see the game be as fun as possible, and also im just salty :P.

 

My worry however, is that Gaijin's current approach to updating the game is unsustainable. Every update, many new vehicles and often some new mechanics like ATGMs or lock on missiles are added. We get new maps and new features. But no room is left for improving on previous content other than just to keep it functioning at a bare minimum. The game is constantly pushing forward. Higher BRs, later time period, more modern vehicles. For an incredibly long time, the highest tier was tier 5 and the highest BR was 9.0. Most updates focused on fleshing out and improving the existing tiers by adding new vehicles and improving on old ones. This made sense considering the game was new, in beta, and really quite empty.

 

Even back then though, Gaijin left little room for bug fixing and improving overall gameplay functionality. Most of the effort of War Thunder updates has been put into NEW STUFF. Back then it was a new Bf 109 or a new line of aircraft like the british fleet air arm. Now, it's the tier 6 jets and Tier 7 tanks. But this can only go on for so long. There are only so many vehicles that existed, and far fewer that fit the game's standards for being added. Eventually, War Thunder will start to run out of new vehicles that are eligible for the game. This point is rapidly approaching as there are now vehicles ingame from as late as the 1980s, and many are still in service. And what then? Gaijin's whole business model for War Thunder is to keep the game alive by adding new vehicles for the players to grind out, along with premiums to go with them at an increasingly high price. And they have no problem selling them to new players who want to skip the grind(and get curbstomped by actual players), or veteran players who want to get through the tier 6 grind faster.

 

I'd like to think that when this time comes, Gaijin will finally calm down and start actually working on making the game more stable with bugfixes, but most importantly making the gameplay more fun. War Thunder's battles are unimaginative and quite frankly repetitive. Objectives are always the same, and each battle is so identical to the last that the game has extreme meta issues where vehicles that are good at what the game wants dominate regardless of real life comabt performance. But this doesn't seem like Gaijin. My big worry, is that this will be the end of War Thunder. Rather than making the battles more fun and attracting a larger audience to make more money in the long run, War Thunder milks its relatively small audience with premium vehicles and other mechanics that press on the player to spend money. Will Gaijin just dump War Thunder when they can't continue this policy? Maybe several years ago this would be a silly thing to think of, but now, Gaijin isn't just War Thunder anymore. They've started other projects like Crossout and that ww2 FPS game. What if they just move on after all this?

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Eventually, War Thunder will start to run out of new vehicles that are eligible for the game. This point is rapidly approaching as there are now vehicles ingame from as late as the 1980s, and many are still in service. And what then?

New nations :happy:

 

I don't see Warthunder running out of vehicles to add soon though ... the numbers of added planes and tanks of the last years is being slowed down with ships and helicopters, and Gaijin can add more variants of a vehicle or vehicle type, or generally relax the policy of similar vehicles among different trees (so called "copy&paste vehicles") :biggrin:

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1 minute ago, michiyl said:

New nations :happy:

 

I don't see Warthunder running out of vehicles to add soon though ... the numbers of added planes and tanks of the last years is being slowed down with ships and helicopters, and Gaijin can add more variants of a vehicle or vehicle type, or generally relax the policy of similar vehicles among different trees (so called "copy&paste vehicles") :biggrin:

There aren't a ton of nations left to add that could really have full trees. I can see China being added but idk of anyone else. Sweden and Czechoslovakia and Hungary made some tanks and planes but not enough for a tech tree to work, unless you're just going to do a mega copy paste of vehicles. France and Italy are already a stretch for the game and they are actually major countries that fought in WW2. Even with huge amounts of copy paste vehicles France's tank and air tree, and Italy's tank tree are pretty bare compared to everyone else.

 

Will adding more variants of the same vehicle or relaxing the copy paste policy really make a difference? All this would do is flood tech trees with boring vehicles that everybody either already has an identical version of or just dont care about. Gaijin's policy of continuously moving forward only works because people actually care about the vehicles being added. For example, the F-100 Super Sabre. It's a cool new jet that everyone wants. If instead of the F-100 they just added a P-51D-15 or added another Bf 109 to the Italian tree, who would care? Nobody really wants those. Those vehicles just blend into the background of the game as they bring nothing new to the table. This would be fine if Gaijin's entire business model didn't revolve entirely around repeatedly adding new exciting vehicles people want(plus the premiums to grind them with), but it does so it's not gonna work.

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There are vast numbers of "variants" of vehicles that could be added - just look at the wiki entry of any of the post war Soviet MBT's - some of them have dozens, from several different nations.

 

Sad but true

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2 hours ago, Elevencobi said:

Will Gaijin just dump War Thunder when they can't continue this policy? Maybe several years ago this would be a silly thing to think of, but now, Gaijin isn't just War Thunder anymore. They've started other projects like Crossout and that ww2 FPS game. What if they just move on after all this?

That is my theory. When there are no more vehicles to add, they will just shut the game down, call it "out of its lifespan" and move to other projects.

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War thunder is at no risk of running out of content any time soon.   The UK is still missing so much content alone from the original time period of the game.  And I'm sure so many more vehicles are also missing from other trees.  As for game dices they also come with every patch and in between patches. 

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They need to find more sustainable ways to monetize the game. They have dug themselves into a hole where they can only earn money by adding more vehicles and making the grind more miserable so no one ever unlocks everything. Many gameplay issues stem from that fixing them would interfere with the vehicle techtree grinding system. At the moment all they can do is sell you premium vehicles or sell GE to make grinding and unlocking less horrible. A theoretical player that loves WT, has played for years, unlocked everything and plays 30 hours per week is effectively worthless as a customer with this business model. Retail games or subscription business models can make money off bug fixes, gameplay and engine improvements, making sure customers continue to enjoy the game brings in money as they buy the new version every year or two or pay continuous subscription fees. You can have mixtures of various business models. WT only sells vehicles and things to make getting more vehicles easier, so there's no real way to have user purchase habits shape priorities for development.

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5 hours ago, Razielkaine said:

War thunder is at no risk of running out of content any time soon.   The UK is still missing so much content alone from the original time period of the game.  And I'm sure so many more vehicles are also missing from other trees.  As for game dices they also come with every patch and in between patches. 

yea i am looking at beaufighter and thinking DAMN, we started at 8, jumped back to 6C variant, jumped to 10, then 21, what about 1,2,3,4,5, or are we going to have the same issue with the german S.M.79, one airplane but soo many variants in one spot and i have to SPADE THEM ALL FROM ZERO!

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1 minute ago, blackbeard_teach said:

yea i am looking at beaufighter and thinking DAMN, we started at 8, jumped back to 6C variant, jumped to 10, then 21, what about 1,2,3,4,5, or are we going to have the same issue with the german S.M.79, one airplane but soo many variants in one spot and i have to SPADE THEM ALL FROM ZERO!

No,  I mean there is real content missing.  Just look at the wish list so.   Britan still doesn't have a mosquito bomber,  one of Britain's most potent weapons of the war. 

 

There also went 21 mk of beaufighter,  that's a different system used by the Raaf for designating aircraft. 

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48 minutes ago, Razielkaine said:

The grind is currently the easiest it's ever been since the 20 tier system was removed. 

no i don't believe ya, they somehow missed up the navy,  i am doing number 1 on most of my matches  and it took me 23 matches to get from 2.0 to 3.0(i don't switch immediately, i get 2 to 3 of the same BR then i jump), when it should've been 13, all the while i had Premium on and it's ridiculous.

 

it would've taken me almost 40 matches without premium On, even the 165ft had Talisman on it

 

airplanes are a little bit easier, but the navy is killing me

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How should Gaijin monetize WT better?

What would you pay for?

How about extra respawns?

Bonus maps?

League play?

Ad free? (Maybe a "free" account would have ads on the loading screen? You're not doing anything else so why not watch an ad?)

 

There would need to be a "preimium" level of experience/gameplay that would be worth paying a couple bucks a month for.

We have premium for XP gain, but that's ONLY XP gain.

It does nothing for sl.. for experience.. and once you unlock a tree... you don't need to grind anymore.

What can they offer players that have unlocked everything?
Especially if they don't want to grind top tier anymore.

Say a WW2 fan for example.

He comes on, plays for free, gaijin gets nothing...

 

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55 minutes ago, Razielkaine said:

The grind is currently the easiest it's ever been since the 20 tier system was removed. 

buddy, we were 3 guys just started the Navy,  all 3 of us US ships.

 

our more fortunate firend, kept skipping using some gold, i didn't want to but still bought premium time.

 

our 3rd friend? played for free ;(

he quit, he could'nt keep up and felt bored.

 

and who wouldn't, it SUCK! burning in the middle of ocean with no way to fight the fire or repair yourself.....

he gotta do that for EVERY new ship he buys, you can see the frustration once he reached Tier 2 where he gotta buy the premium otherwise he would suffer more!

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1 hour ago, ninjapiratekris said:

How should Gaijin monetize WT better?

What would you pay for?

How about extra respawns?

Bonus maps?

League play?

Ad free? (Maybe a "free" account would have ads on the loading screen? You're not doing anything else so why not watch an ad?)

 

There would need to be a "preimium" level of experience/gameplay that would be worth paying a couple bucks a month for.

We have premium for XP gain, but that's ONLY XP gain.

It does nothing for sl.. for experience.. and once you unlock a tree... you don't need to grind anymore.

What can they offer players that have unlocked everything?
Especially if they don't want to grind top tier anymore.

Say a WW2 fan for example.

He comes on, plays for free, gaijin gets nothing...

 

 

Premium account gives bonuses both to RP and SL gain, as well as premium vehicles. So dunno what you’re talking about. 

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2 hours ago, Razielkaine said:

The grind is currently the easiest it's ever been since the 20 tier system was removed. 

This. This is 100% true. And this is one of the actually good things Gaijin has done for the game other than just adding more vehicles. Compared to how the grind was for the longest time, the RP costs of vehicles is totally achievable now, except for Tier 6s and Tier 7s. Remember how many forum threads used to just be grind rants? Now you hardly see them anymore. Players only complain about the grind when they are either too bad to get any kills so progress slowly, or play the game for 30 minutes every weekend and expect to get a vehicle after each battle.

 

Naval Forces grind on the other hand, IS horrible. But I dont really care because I dont really like Naval Forces. I do understand it's an issue but Naval forces just seems so boring and unfun. I think a gameplay overhaul for naval forces would be necessary before focusing on anything else. I tried it out when it came out for all players, and I was a mixture of "meh this is boring" and "Wtf this is bullcrap". Im looking at you gun aiming system.

 

Why do people think adding more variants of existing vehicles will help? War Thunder has hyped up this process to such an extent that nothing other than a newer more modern vehicle will make up for it. What do you hear the Aces who still want new vehicles rather than a bug fix and gameplay improvement patch asking for? The Mig-21, the F-4 phantom, whatever is the next era of jet. People aren't clambering over eachother to get the bomber version of the Mosquito. Sure, maybe it would be powerful. Sure, maybe it would fun to use. But is it as exciting and dopamine triggering as an F-4 phantom? I dont think so for the general playerbase.

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25 minutes ago, gromvoiny said:

 

Premium account gives bonuses both to RP and SL gain, as well as premium vehicles. So dunno what you’re talking about. 

I would much rather just pay for the game, for example if I could just pay $10 to $20 a month and not have to worry about unlocking or buying normal tech tree vehicles I would just do that. The massive tech tree and number of countries is a problem,  if you try to play with friends it's hard trying to find vehicles everyone has, if you want to play around in custom missions and fight  against 100 t-34 with modern MBTs with friends you can't unless everyone owns those vehicles. Also many of my premium aircraft are broken in sim mode and earn less SL than non premium, one of them earns less than 50% of normal tech tree planes.

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1 hour ago, lizardmech said:

I would much rather just pay for the game, for example if I could just pay $10 to $20 a month and not have to worry about unlocking or buying normal tech tree vehicles I would just do that. The massive tech tree and number of countries is a problem,  if you try to play with friends it's hard trying to find vehicles everyone has, if you want to play around in custom missions and fight  against 100 t-34 with modern MBTs with friends you can't unless everyone owns those vehicles. Also many of my premium aircraft are broken in sim mode and earn less SL than non premium, one of them earns less than 50% of normal tech tree planes.

that's a monthly subscription system, been around for a very long time, and when i played Final fantasy online, they made sure you don't feel stuck at a stage

 

seems like the Freemuim model is working for them

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2 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

Premium account gives bonuses both to RP and SL gain, as well as premium vehicles. So dunno what you’re talking about. 

i know what he is talking about

 

i am feeling that the bonus given to us is not Enough, either the total cost need to be reduced, Base gain is doubled, or premium to be given 300% the amount.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, lizardmech said:

I would much rather just pay for the game, for example if I could just pay $10 to $20 a month and not have to worry about unlocking or buying normal tech tree vehicles I would just do that.

Ohh god please no. There are quite a few games out there that I dont play purely due to being a subscription service. Subscription service games are probably the worst way to gain a profit from a game. 1 time purchase games are fine, free games with strong incentives to make ingame purchases are fine, but monthly subscription is the stupidest thing ever invented. I don't want my progress and time investment in a game to be locked behind a repeated paywall. "You spent 1000 hours on this game and got the best stuff? Pay us 20 bucks and we'll let you keep using it for a month"

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12 hours ago, lizardmech said:

I would much rather just pay for the game, for example if I could just pay $10 to $20 a month and not have to worry about unlocking or buying normal tech tree vehicles I would just do that. The massive tech tree and number of countries is a problem,  if you try to play with friends it's hard trying to find vehicles everyone has, if you want to play around in custom missions and fight  against 100 t-34 with modern MBTs with friends you can't unless everyone owns those vehicles. Also many of my premium aircraft are broken in sim mode and earn less SL than non premium, one of them earns less than 50% of normal tech tree planes.

 

In online games with subscription, you still have to grind and level-up your character, it doesn’t unlock all game content for you. And our premium account is like $4 per month if you purchase 365 days at 50% off in May or November. 

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18 hours ago, blackbeard_teach said:

no i don't believe ya, they somehow missed up the navy,  i am doing number 1 on most of my matches  and it took me 23 matches to get from 2.0 to 3.0(i don't switch immediately, i get 2 to 3 of the same BR then i jump), when it should've been 13, all the while i had Premium on and it's ridiculous.

 

it would've taken me almost 40 matches without premium On, even the 165ft had Talisman on it

 

airplanes are a little bit easier, but the navy is killing me

That's deliberate due to the amount of content.  Less vehicles means the Rp needed goes up so the grind isn't one day.  Saying that the grind in navy isn't hard to get to tier 5.  Are you acing your ships?  Because if your not that is your problem. 

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3 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

In online games with subscription, you still have to grind and level-up your character, it doesn’t unlock all game content for you. And our premium account is like $4 per month if you purchase 365 days at 50% off in May or November. 

That's the issue with WT though, those games are generally MMORPGs, war thunder is a semi realistic military sim game, many of the players come from games like battlefield 1 & 2, operation flashpoint/ARMA and similar games. myself and many others from these type of games don't like the MMORPG style grinding at all but war thunder lacks any way to pay money to avoid having to do that. Premium time is cheap but only offers modest reduction in the amount of grinding. I have 2800 hours played with premium time and premium vehicles and I can still only play about 30% of the vehicles in the game. There needs to be a middle ground that's  more expensive than premium time but appeals to people who want to pay to play a military sim. I don't know if subscriptions, season pass type things or some other option would be best. Also because the only thing we can really buy is more vehicles, there's no incentive for developers to fix problems or make gameplay content. If they made a major patch with only bug fixes and gameplay improvements but no new vehicles it would not bring in any revenue. Some other games adopt hybrid models where f2p players exist and unlock things through grinding as they do in WT but players can still  opt to buy a full version that comes with a decent amount of content.

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3 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

That's the issue with WT though, those games are generally MMORPGs, war thunder is a semi realistic military sim game, many of the players come from games like battlefield 1 & 2, operation flashpoint/ARMA and similar games. myself and many others from these type of games don't like the MMORPG style grinding at all but war thunder lacks any way to pay money to avoid having to do that. Premium time is cheap but only offers modest reduction in the amount of grinding. I have 2800 hours played with premium time and premium vehicles and I can still only play about 30% of the vehicles in the game. There needs to be a middle ground that's  more expensive than premium time but appeals to people who want to pay to play a military sim. I don't know if subscriptions, season pass type things or some other option would be best. Also because the only thing we can really buy is more vehicles, there's no incentive for developers to fix problems or make gameplay content. If they made a major patch with only bug fixes and gameplay improvements but no new vehicles it would not bring in any revenue. Some other games adopt hybrid models where f2p players exist and unlock things through grinding as they do in WT but players can still  opt to buy a full version that comes with a decent amount of content.

The games your comparing it to to that you believe it should be like are not the same kind of of games.  I'd like to to know what game has this style of game play and doesn't have this kind of of payment system or grind system. 

 

War thunder has one of the easiest grinds of it competitors even with the large number of vehicles. 

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14 hours ago, Elevencobi said:

Ohh god please no. There are quite a few games out there that I dont play purely due to being a subscription service. Subscription service games are probably the worst way to gain a profit from a game. 1 time purchase games are fine, free games with strong incentives to make ingame purchases are fine, but monthly subscription is the stupidest thing ever invented. I don't want my progress and time investment in a game to be locked behind a repeated paywall. "You spent 1000 hours on this game and got the best stuff? Pay us 20 bucks and we'll let you keep using it for a month"

What I was thinking was perhaps they could have a premium "premium time" thing, when active you can use any normal tech tree vehicle fully equipped, you can still use your RP and SL to permanently buy the vehicles, if you play after it expires the game acts as usual and you can only use vehicles you own. The current system is totally unsustainable, try to get a friend to play WT, as soon as they realize they will have to grind 500+ hours to play any of the late ww2 or post war vehicles in the WT ads most just quit. Even if you have friends that play trying to make squads when everyone has miss matched equipment and can't form squads. 

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