TheCheshireCat

A question regarding the upcoming thermal optics and image intensifiers

Howdy.

 

I asked in the Rumour Roundup thread but I couldn't summon any mods/devs that would be able to answer my questions, and there isn't really a suitable place to put this anywhere else as far as I'm aware. Mods please give me a slap on the bum and move the thread to the correct section if I put this in the wrong place.

 

So with the upcoming introduction of thermal vision and image intensifiers (which I'll hereby refer to as NV optics), there are a few things that I would really appreciate if could be clarified:

 

  1. We've already been made aware that these optics will be a researchable option, but will the optics be used from the historical placement when unlocked? What I mean by this, is for vehicles like the Chieftain Mk.10, Challenger 1 and Challenger 2, the TOGS is currently non functioning and we use backup sights only. The same applies typically all other vehicles in game, backup sights are used as thermal/NV hasn't been implemented.
  2. Will Thermal/NV optics be able to be damaged? If yes, for vehicles with functioning doors like the Chieftain Mk.10, will they be closed when not in use to protect against small arms fire?
  3. Will the inclusion of thermal/NV optics mirror the real-world vehicles capability? For example, Soviet thermals being rather poor during Operation Granby vs. the Western counterparts, or will a generic thermal/NV capability be introduced for all vehicles in game?
  4. With vehicles like the Panther II which is confirmed to get NV optics, will it also have functioning IR lamps as well? Vehicles like the M60 (which historically should be fitted with lamps) as well as the soviet T-64 etc. have massive lamps for night vision. This is obviously both a blessing and a curse, and would require modelling of effectively spotlights in game. Centurions were also fitted with IR strobes as well, and I'd be interested to see those implemented.
  5. Will explosions create video artifacts within thermal optics like in reality? See below for a demonstration I quickly threw together.

 

Any and all clarification would be appreciated. Please post anything else below that you think I may have neglected to consider or if I missed anything.

 

 

Edited by TheCheshireCat
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Will thermal image be affected by time of day and weather?

Overcast day/night = heat spreads out evenly, creating a low contrast picture

Clear sky day = dark surfaces becomes hot and therefore glows bright in thermal images, while shadowy areas are dark and have low contrast

Clear sky night = horizontal surfaces radiate their heat away towards the open sky, making them cold. Meanwhile vertical and enclosed surfaces radiate into each other, maintaining more heat than open horizontal surfaces.

 

I own a consumer grade thermal camera. ;)

Edited by AraMacao
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I would also like to add my own concerns as well if I may.

 

1) Will tanks that lack IR systems such as the Sho't Kal Dalet, M60 AOS and others be provided with IR? Otherwise they'll be at a serious disadvantage since it seems most 8.3 / 8.7 BR vehicles have some sort of IR gear

 

2) Are Gaijin going to implement feedback to these devices for example weather affecting the accuracy of the device? Otherwise I might as well just keep it turned on and easily pick of any targets at will and it will turn high tier into "Whoever has IR and shoots first wins"

 

My other concerns have been already asked by the OP, hopefully a dev/mod can answer all our questions

Edited by *Hurricanefire32

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14 hours ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

Sho't Kal Dalet, 

This could be fitted with an passive IR system IRL no reason it won't get it in game.

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To all of you worried abouth what tanks will and will not be disadvantaged by IV via gen 1-2 . Aka NV ,,, stop worrying . Every tank in game has this all ready. Go to graphics and gamma settings and turn it up all the way , night is now day time .. The ONLY thing that will have a new effect is the thermal vision . I'm sure it's just going to be generic for all top tier tanks and not show which nations had better tech such as the Abrams and other western NATO tanks being far superior vs the Warsaw tanks in that regard . I doubt WT would do  independent thermal quality .  Tons of Russian based and others would throw even more serious hate towards USA and British tanks . The big thing next to thermals is the fact you can turn your engine off.   So , this sounds cool but it's just a new door to nerfs . Let me explain . The EARLIER  Abrams for example loses a lot of it's functions when the power plant is off .  Yes some things could run off of battery but not for long . Early 90s models had a generator added to handle these functions , but again that puts off a signature . Present day , the generator is inside the tank . Also the Abrams has a cerakote type finish that counters or decreases heat signature appearance . I doubt they even incorporate that or certain tech mods will cherry pick these things . For the thermals again , this will level out the field between ulq and higher graphics players so that's one pro other then just being cool . Maps will have to be bigger to truly take advantage of these new features of thermals and engine ignition . The maps we have now are to small to use these features in such a fast paced play . Sure go kill your engine and be rushed by the gamma graphics users and be a sitting duck . 

Edited by Bad_MoFo
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On 23/08/2019 at 20:15, AraMacao said:

Will thermal image be affected by time of day and weather?

Overcast day/night = heat spreads out evenly, creating a low contrast picture

Clear sky day = dark surfaces becomes hot and therefore glows bright in thermal images, while shadowy areas are dark and have low contrast

Clear sky night = horizontal surfaces radiate their heat away towards the open sky, making them cold. Meanwhile vertical and enclosed surfaces radiate into each other, maintaining more heat than open horizontal surfaces.

 

I own a consumer grade thermal camera. ;)

The consumer devices lack depth-focus, resolution and often cooling systems as the mil. TIS have.

Also how a surface "looks" in a TIS when in sunlight, much more depends on the material then the "colour"

Bright sand/concrete will be glowing as a christmas tree....while dark grasland will be rather cool und full of clutter...

 

The systems we used f.e. where able to detect 0.1K temp. difference at 2000+ meters

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1 hour ago, Ronin_GE said:

The consumer devices lack depth-focus, resolution and often cooling systems as the mil. TIS have.

Also how a surface "looks" in a TIS when in sunlight, much more depends on the material then the "colour"

Bright sand/concrete will be glowing as a christmas tree....while dark grasland will be rather cool und full of clutter...

 

The systems we used f.e. where able to detect 0.1K temp. difference at 2000+ meters

Yes the military has the best quality imagers but I don't see how quality difference would negate my points. Other than emissivity and absorptivity (color) what other factors play a role to the appearance of a surface exposed to sunlight, when viewed in infrared?

 

I haven't noticed concrete or sand glowing more than expected. Rocks on the other hand are strangely much brighter than surrounding moss and grass when not in sunlight.

Edited by AraMacao
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Also, to add my own questions (and hopes), what I want to add:

 

 

On 23/08/2019 at 09:58, TheCheshireCat said:

 

 

Will Thermal/NV optics be able to be damaged? If yes, for vehicles with functioning doors like the Chieftain Mk.10, will they be closed when not in use to protect against small arms fire?

 

Not only to damage and doors closing to protect against small arms,

 

will doors automatically close to just protect against light?  For reference, the T-72A’s night system’s doors automatically close when the gun is fired, to protect the night sight from the intense flash.  Will this be simulated?  This should effect gameplay outside of just being aesthetic, because not only the sight can get damaged from the flash, but the gunner will be temporarily blind for a second or two because of this.

 

As well, for the sights that shut the door in the day, will this be added too?  Since the same mentioned tank, the night sights will be damaged by the daylight, so the doors (for the T-72A, I think they’re more like shutters but I don’t remember) are shut to prevent the sight from being damaged?  So the player cannot accidentally use the NV during the day?  For the vehicles that did this, of course.

 

On 23/08/2019 at 09:58, TheCheshireCat said:

Will the inclusion of thermal/NV optics mirror the real-world vehicles capability? For example, Soviet thermals being rather poor during Operation Granby vs. the Western counterparts, or will a generic thermal/NV capability be introduced for all vehicles in game?

 

I have to second my hope for this too.  I would like this to be an addition, so as you’re going down the tree, it is also being upgraded seemingly, and maybe in the future, even different NV/IR and (hopefully eventually) FCS systems could mean different tank variants as well.

 

But as well, a generic IR/NV system would be overpowered for some vehicles as well, since imagine say a Panther II or a ASU-85 using the same IR as a top tier at what is still late WW2 tier.  I think trying to be historical with this will also be more balanced.

 

 

On 23/08/2019 at 09:58, TheCheshireCat said:

Will explosions create video artifacts within thermal optics like in reality? See below for a demonstration I quickly threw together.

I also say hopefully this will be the case, historical advantages and disadvantages should be a factor.

 

On 23/08/2019 at 09:58, TheCheshireCat said:

With vehicles like the Panther II which is confirmed to get NV optics, will it also have functioning IR lamps as well? Vehicles like the M60 (which historically should be fitted with lamps) as well as the soviet T-64 etc. have massive lamps for night vision. This is obviously both a blessing and a curse, and would require modelling of effectively spotlights in game. Centurions were also fitted with IR strobes as well, and I'd be interested to see those implemented

This shouldn’t be an issue I hope, which also outright adding headlights and everything should be implemented as well.  They should now even be useful for blinding IR sights and stuff, but spotlights however are a huge disadvantage to being easily spotted with them, they should be in game too to spot enemies as well.  Along with the IR strobes and lights as well.  But modelling spotlights and headlights should not be a problem, that is something I don’t expect to hear — there are games developed by only one person that have working headlights and stuff just fine, I can’t imagine a multi-million dollar video game company having trouble doing this.

 

On 23/08/2019 at 09:58, TheCheshireCat said:

We've already been made aware that these optics will be a researchable option, but will the optics be used from the historical placement when unlocked? What I mean by this, is for vehicles like the Chieftain Mk.10, Challenger 1 and Challenger 2, the TOGS is currently non functioning and we use backup sights only. The same applies typically all other vehicles in game, backup sights are used as thermal/NV hasn't been implemented.

I really hope so, we do have sights from Realistic gunner view, so this should change with the IR/NV.

 

But this is a side thing to add, if this is added, hopefully we also can get CQC sights in game too.  In game, gunner view is just one view, however many tanks IRL had multiple sights, including even a close combat sight, which would be useful in game.  However, this is not in game currently.

 

 

 

Also a new question I heard earlier from a friend:

 

What about crew-specific IR/NV?

 

Not all crew have IR available for them,  so will tanks that say, have only gunner IR have the IR in the gunner sights, but not 3rd person, commander, or driver?  Or commander IR not available to gunner/driver?  Or, yes this is a scenario, will the driver get NV on some tanks, but not the gunner or the commander?  So driver view will actually be more useful, because it can use NV?

 

And if the commander gets NV/IR,

 

will this mean you have to be in commander’s view (tank hatch) to use it?  Will you get it in 3rd person?  Or more logically, this is my #1 hope, will we get (even a simple) commander cupola’s view this patch, that you use IR/NV in?  A commander’s view would be amazing, not only for this, but just for SB too.

Edited by kamikazi21358
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13 minutes ago, kamikazi21358 said:

-snip-

You've raised some excellent points and expanded on the ones I made, thank you.

 

Something that's rather worrying to me is in the devblog it looks like you can use thermals when in third person, I really hope that won't be the case.

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3 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

I really hope so, we do have sights from Realistic gunner view, so this should change with the IR/NV.

Unfortunately, all real gunner sights on tanks which have the sight not mounted at the height of the cannon are broken. 

 

Gaijin has not included any sort of correction to the convergence like the real tanks do. A shot landing at 200m away from you will look like you've hit the 800m mark on the Challenger, for example. 

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3 minutes ago, DELTACLUSTER said:

Unfortunately, all real gunner sights on tanks which have the sight not mounted at the height of the cannon are broken. 

 

Gaijin has not included any sort of correction to the convergence like the real tanks do. A shot landing at 200m away from you will look like you've hit the 800m mark on the Challenger, for example. 

Doesn't the M1 sight function correctly when zeroed to 1200m like real life?

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After watching the devstream twice over, there are a few things that I can confirm thus far;

  1. All units that have the ability to equip night vision seem to have that ability unlocked by default.
  2. IR Lamps are also functional and unlocked by default. Enemies will see you casting a beam. The lamps are fixed to the turret so you will not be able to make use of them from binocular view, unless of course you also turn the turret.
  3. Tanks that could historically switch between IR/TIR will be switchable via a modification. The T-80U modification is Tier III.
  4. The environment will influence how much the passive image intensifiers see. Bad weather makes it quite difficult to see through. Lamps can penetrate some of the bad weather.
  5. Some modifications for thermals (like on the T-80U) removes/moves the IR lamp(s) entirely. ERA can replace the missing lamp(s).
  6. The T-80U is getting a later model classification to justify its thermal sight. BVV_D stated it was the export version offered to Sweden. *edit/update* The T-80B will also be brought to a more technologically advanced standard to accept thermals.
  7. Thermal is Gunner/Commander specific. For example if the commander and driver did not have thermal vision, but the gunner does, then they will be allocated the functionality realistically.
  8. Further to the last point, you cannot use IR/TIR in third person.
  9. Turning off the engine will mean you'll start to drain the battery of the tank, and APU's are planned to be modelled (possibly at a later date). As such, the tank will never be completely cold unless you completely drain electrics.
  10. There does not appear to be a difference in TIR effectiveness, at least not between the Mi-35, G-Lynx and Tigre. *edit* - There are different generational gaps between IR systems, the Panther II has terrible night vision.
  11. Explosions and gunfire do not seem to create video artifacts.
  12. The ability to switch between BHOT and WHOT will be implemented

 

 

Things that are still unconfirmed:

  • Whether or not the vehicles that are currently using backup sights will be able to use their historical ones, ie; TOGS.
  • Whether IR/TIR functionality will be damaged/impaired as gunsights become damaged.
  • Whether or not vehicles with protective shields for lamps and sights will have their functionality modelled.

 

A lot of questions we asked seem to have been answered which is nice, for better or worse.

Edited by TheCheshireCat
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A small update, according to the Russian stream, IR/TIR sights will be non destructible. 

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11 hours ago, TheCheshireCat said:

The T-80U is getting a later model classification to justify its thermal sight. BVV_D stated it was the export version offered to Sweden. *edit/update* The T-80B will also be brought to a more technologically advanced standard to accept thermals. 

 

Oh boy, that's a giant can of worms they're opening.

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