CaID

Let's discuss of the Italian Reserve

Ok one more discussion about the Italian Reserve tank. but this time, we do not simply say the M13/40 is too strong and the M11/39 would make more sense, we also look for the possible replacement for the M13/40 as reserve.

 

first, let's say one more time why the M13/40 are too good for been reserve. skip this spoiler if you are tired to hear it. but i will try to expose my own idea with documentation for those who still feel motivated enough to read it.

Spoiler

245208-stranger.jpg

 

this tank is a good tank for rank 1. it was the Italian Backbone for the armoured force for the most part of the WW2 and was used in large number for the Italian army. the historical side of this time give no doubt, it couldn't be ignored in the game.

 

but why reserve?

the gun is good enough, the speed is decent even if the climbing is said to be slow but personally i feel it's not so different than other reserve such as the T-26 or A13 but the armour is really good.

30mm of frontal armour is good for a reserve, while not been exceptional. but the turret with double plate in the gun mantlet is nearly impossible to penetrate even without angle by most tanks of this rank. the wiki said the tank is very flat is easy to penetrated on the side rear and even front. but who isn't flat in this rank? only 3 reserve tank from the other nation aren't flat. the other are pretty all flat. and the 25mm of armour on the side and rear is actually pretty good too. even better than some reserve's frontal armour. so why is it a reserve?

 

let's also take those historical picture of the M13/40 of all series in consideration

Spoiler

m13-40-tanks.jpg

CcGj71QWwssnnyTuVZ7N1Tat3h-oHTB2BeXRv-cx

phz2jjsy6r321.jpg

 

 

I hope everyone had notice the large amounts of spare track and sandbag used on the tank to be add-on armour? that would add what? 15-20mm of armour to the tank? on the front of the hull and side of the turret. that would make this tank been a very hard opponent while the gun is still able to deal some damage. why not raise it to 1.7? it would fare well enough even if the gun start to be a bit weak there. it still can take any opponent at a range under 400m and his speed shall not go so much slower, maybe somewhere around 26km/h. i still can live with 26km/h. so i think the M13/40 shall be 1.3 or 1.7 AND have the add-on armour modification to be unlocked like many tank have in the game. there is different series of M13/40 and there is also different set-up of add-on armour. add one with the track only on the turret, one with the turret and the front hull, keep the premium one without anything or eventually add the sandbag for the HE protection while keeping it to 1.3 like many premium are give to those that start playing this nation as first nation. it would be fair this way to my eyes.

 

now what should be the replacement for the M13/40.

the Obvious historical answer shall be the M11/39. this tank was the predecessor of the M13/40 and less armoured, less powerful gun and about same size and speed but at BR 1.3 :blink:(in realistic)

lets see what is this tank Skip the spoiler is you want.

Spoiler

Captured_Italian_tanks_005042.jpg

 

the M11/39 was a medium weight breakthrough tank. this was not a really good tank. initially intended to fit the main gun in the turret but due to the time schedule and inadequate space in the turret it was placed in the hull to put the tank into production right away. it was what we can call a gap-stopper. the Italian needed a tank, the tank wasn't ready so they speed up the development to have something in hand while they wait for the tank they really need. wich was the M13/40.

 

if the 37mm Vickers-Terni was in the turret like intended, this tank would probably be decent enough. but since it is in the hull, it would be played more like a SPG than a Medium tank. but still, it is a medium tank. no rule say the Medium tank need the main gun in the turret. the Char B1 didnt't. the British Mark IV and V didn't. the Swedish Strv 104 do not. there is serial exeption to this rule that do not exist.

so why put it in the Spg line? because they put the M13/40 as reserve and they wasn't going to put it after them and cannot put it before them since the first in line can only be reserve.

and why they didn't put him as reserve with some other tank like the L6/40? well the obvious answer is the M11/39 would be too hard to play. the SPG aren't particulaly hard to play but for a new player that would had like to start to play the Italian tank as a first nation, without experience and skill in the game, a turretless (or main gun outside the turret) tank would be a bit too challenging. it's would be a really important feature for a reserve tank to have a turret so a new player could more easily learn to play the game with a tank that could do about everything they expect from a tank without too much difficulty.

 

so a result.

No to this tank as reserve for avoiding to make the game too challenging for new player.

Yes for this tank to be move from the SPG line to the Medium tank line just before the M13/40 IF the M13/40 aren't reserve anymore.

and for last, why having it at BR 1.3? it's a downgrad from the L3/33 CC who is 1.0 we really should change is BR for 1.0 right now and the game willn't be worse.

Sd9W8Zm.png

 

so if you didn't skip the spoiler of the M11/39 you would see the tank is not much good for reserve either while it is totally fit and logic for the gameplay and history.

 

so what else should do as reserve?

we need to find a tank with 3 feature.

average firepower.

average armour.

have the main gun in fully rotative turret.

 

what tank should do?

personally i see a few candidate. one could be obvious and often forgotten, a export tank of the interwar that didn't meet any success but still would be perfectly fit. sadly not currently in game. the Carro Assanlto T5 modelo 36

Spoiler

carro_d_assalto_36.jpg

 

this tank was a intermediary tank between the L3/35 and L6/40. it was based on the L3 with a turret mounting a Vickers-Terni 37mm L/26. it was been offered into export but didn't find any buyer. the Italian army finally found the tank interesting and used the Carro D'Assalto T5 modello 36 as base for the L6/40 a few year later. but it's not the L6/40 prototype. it's a fully functional and finished tank on his own and a predecessor of the L6/40

 

Carro d'Assalto 5t modelo 36
General
  • Type: Light Tank
  • Crew: 2
  • Production: prototypes
Engine
  • Type: Fiat Gasoline 4cyl
  • Power: 42 hp
Dimensions/Masses
  • Length: 3.51 m
  • Width: 1.70 m
  • Height: 1.98 m
  • Weight: 4.75-5 t
Performances
  • Maximum Speed: 32 km/h
  • Maximum Range: 80 km
  • Mileage: ?
  • Vertical Obstacle: ? m
  • Tranch Crossing: ? m
  • Fording: ? m
  • Gradient: ?
Armament/Armor
  • Armament: 37mm L/26
  • Secondary armament: 6.5 mm MG
  • Armor: 6-30 mm

 

 

the tank had a 42hp engine and a speed of 32km/h wich is not bad

the armour is ranged from 30mm on the front to 6mm to the bottom and top. just like many reserve tank

the gun is a bit under the average of the reserve tank on the side of the penetration but have a 23g of TNT in the shell wich shall make it effective if it penetrate the target wich shalln't be so difficul under 300m.

in final, the tank is small and light wich shall make it had to spot once immobile and easy to hide. it shall be more or like played like the T-26 or A13.

 

 more picture

Spoiler

carro_d_assalto_36_3.jpgAnsaldo_M36.jpgcarro_d_assalto_36_2.jpg

 

this last is rather the Cannone version with the main gun on the hull and twin MG in the turret but for the engine compartment reference, it is good to show it too. it appear there is not much difference over the L6/40 on this part.

Spoiler

ansaldo_m36_3.jpgcarro_cannone_mod_36.jpg

 

 

 

What about the prototype of the L6/40

Spoiler

Prototype_L6_40_2.jpg

 

the prototype of the L6/40 had at some points a 37mm vickers-terni as the main gun. much alike the Carro Assalto T5 Modelo 36 but with serial improvement and modernization. the both tank can be tell apart by which side is the coax gun.

the tank was all finished and ready to go into production but the Italian had choose to produce only the 20mm armed version. fair enough. the 20mm is very good and had better ballistic after all.

 

Why not the L6/40 himself? the Panzer 2 is reserve and also have the 20mm auto-cannon so it wouldn't be exeptional

Spoiler

L6_40_9.jpg

 

it could be a good choice. but the pzgr-40 shells are a bit too strong to my taste. i am in flavor to remove it from the reserve panzer 2 as well but not the ones that is not reserve just to make the reserve ballanced with each other. some are a bit OP. but with 16 round magazine and the pzgr-40 i think this tank do well at 1.3 and i wouldn't like to see it change.

 

the AB 41?

Spoiler

300px-Autoblinda-AB-41-haugh-1.jpg

 

those who know me can say i like Armoured car in tank battle. they required more skills from the players and are ideal flanker. i like flanking. i personally had made a few dozen suggestion of armoured car for different nation and think most of them should have his how line of armoured car to research. most nation have real good wheeled tank and in the last 2 year, we start to see many good armoured car been added to the game. i am sure it will continue for a while.

 

but the AB 41 is it a good reserve? the performance say yes on paper but in the game, maybe not. the ammo belt may need to be buffed a bit to add more AP shell in the magazine. with the Pzgr-40 it's a lot better but i feel those shell are a bit OP for the reserve tank. but i need to admit the size of this armoured car magazine and the time of his reload could compensated it. so it is a good alternative unless we find better. just keep in mind the armoured car aren't particularly good to drive off-road and easy to lose control at the top speed. a new player may feel it is a pain to try to push the vehicles to his limits. but with some skill, you can do great thing with it. and it's also good enough for most use.

 

what about the Fiat 3000b (L5/30)

Spoiler

15982594871_287db18914_z.jpg

 

the fiat 3000B was a decent tank until the mid 30s. but in the early 40s it was way out-dated. but still in cervice under the name of L5/30 in the Italian army. so we still can consider it.

 

while the 37mm Vicker-Terni gun was still good enough while been weak, it would still be useful. many of those i suggest also had this gun. so it would be unfair to discard it for his gun.

what bother me it's all the rest. two crew member mean a slow reload. no powered drive mean a slow turret rotation. 21 km/h mean 15km/h effective in flag ground. 16mm of armour mean no protection even at long range. as a result i consider this tank as under-performing. it is about as good in battle as the H-35 and FCM 36 except they are a bit faster and way better armoured. yet they was removed from the game because of the poor performance of the gun. the vickers-terni is a bit better and had a bit of TNT in the shell which the SA-18 do not have but the rest of this tank will not save it. i belive the Fiat 3000B to be unfit for the curret game and i think we still can find something better.

 

 

 

give your though about the Italian reserve tank and possible replacement

Survey-featured-1.png

Edited by CaID
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I would really love to see see the L5/30, probably would be frustrating to use but a nice addition none the less 

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M13/40(I) is ok as reserve, M13/40(III) is a bit better than other reserves(arguably, considering americans have their M2A4 as a reserve) and can be 1.3.

As a second reserve I would add AB.611. It looks cool. It was built in numbers(46). It has the same 37/40 cannon as M11/39, but in the turret. It has a poor armor(15mm), but should have a good survivability(just like LVT for example) and good reload rate due to the amount of crew(5: Driver, "Mechanic-Servant", Gunner, Commander, Rear Driver/Machine Gunner). It isn't really fast(28 km/h and 8.12 hp/t). 

Italy has a good amount of wheeled vehicles in its tree(and will have even more!), so I think it will be cool to get wheeled reserve vehicle for this nation.

AB611-01.wwii.jpg

 

9 hours ago, CaID said:

 

Carro Assanlto T5 modelo 36

L6/40 with 37 mm

37/40 already has bad penetration, 37/26 will be just unplayable. These two are better for Rank 0.

M11/39 can be lowered to 1.0, but I wouldn't like to have it as a reserve vehicle, because it's too unfriendly for new players.

Edited by _Condottiero_
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24 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

M13/40(I) is ok as reserve, M13/40(III) is a bit better than other reserves(arguably, considering americans have their M2A4 as a reserve) and can be 1.3.

As a second reserve I would add AB.611. It looks cool. It was built in numbers(46). It has the same 37/40 cannon as M11/39, but in the turret. It has a poor armor(15mm), but should have a good survivability(just like LVT for example) and good reload rate due to the amount of crew(5: Driver, "Mechanic-Servant", Gunner, Commander, Rear Driver/Machine Gunner). It isn't really fast(28 km/h and 8.12 hp/t). 

Italy has a good amount of wheeled vehicles in its tree(and will have even more!), so I think it will be cool to get wheeled reserve vehicle for this nation.

AB611-01.wwii.jpg

 

37/40 already has bad penetration, 37/26 will be just unplayable. These two are better for Rank 0.

M11/39 can be lowered to 1.0, but I wouldn't like to have it as a reserve vehicle, because it's too unfriendly for new players.

 

Thanks for remembering my suggestion!  The AB 611 could make for a good reserve indeed!  :3

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L6/40 pre

Image result for fiat L6/40 pre

maybe all the Assanlto T5 model 36 should be put into a folder 

kgyZX8P.jpg

                   5t Prototype Hull and Turret B                   5t Turret B (top) Turret A (bottom)        5t Prototype with Turret A

SPA 38 R with Cannone da 47/32

41NA on lorry2main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itmain.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_it

Semovente 105/14 SPG ( yes i know its a ww1 tank but the gun makes up for it)

sDfUMWd.jpg

Edited by onemax9000
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On 16/07/2019 at 10:35, Mishaa76 said:

And what about AS42 with 47/32 gun?

very mobile SPG with a decent gun. it could easily replace the M11/39 in the SPG line.

 

On 13/07/2019 at 20:57, _Condottiero_ said:

M13/40(I) is ok as reserve, M13/40(III) is a bit better than other reserves(arguably, considering americans have their M2A4 as a reserve) and can be 1.3.

As a second reserve I would add AB.611. It looks cool. It was built in numbers(46). It has the same 37/40 cannon as M11/39, but in the turret. It has a poor armor(15mm), but should have a good survivability(just like LVT for example) and good reload rate due to the amount of crew(5: Driver, "Mechanic-Servant", Gunner, Commander, Rear Driver/Machine Gunner). It isn't really fast(28 km/h and 8.12 hp/t). 

Italy has a good amount of wheeled vehicles in its tree(and will have even more!), so I think it will be cool to get wheeled reserve vehicle for this nation.

 28km/h on road would be good for a tank but a wheeled vehicles, it's really slow. 9km/h off-road is terrible. keep in mind it is only after acceleration and on a flat ground. climbing hills and crossing river or other maneuver, it would be somewhere around 4-5km/h in operational speed. might be too slow for a proper gameplay.

 

also that is odd the M13/40 have different reload speed. the turret roof had a hole and it allowed a better depression from the 50th tanks of the second series to improve the depression but i do not think it really affect the reload speed.

 

 

On 16/07/2019 at 17:11, stefffff1871 said:

glad to see you back Caid,

the L6/40 would be actually a quite good reserve tank in my opinion

yeah but with a panzerkampfwagen of 14month in the arms and a wife who say i do not spend enough time with her. so it's not like i can be like i was before when the baby only sleep while i need to watch him.

Edited by CaID
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1 hour ago, CaID said:

also that is odd the M13/40 have different reload speed. the turret roof had a hole and it allowed a better depression from the 50th tanks of the second series to improve the depression but i do not think it really affect the reload speed.

 

Reload speed is different because M13/40 uses manual reload, all the other M series tanks use semi-automatic reload.

1 hour ago, CaID said:

28km/h on road would be good for a tank but a wheeled vehicles, it's really slow. 9km/h off-road is terrible. keep in mind it is only after acceleration and on a flat ground. climbing hills and crossing river or other maneuver, it would be somewhere around 4-5km/h in operational speed. might be too slow for a proper gameplay.

 

Don't know, reserves usually play at small maps. Also its hp/t is low, but is not so terrible, it is higher than 29-K, so acceleration should be enough. 9 km/h sounds pretty strange, maybe it's because of its unstable condition off-road.

Edited by _Condottiero_
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On 16/07/2019 at 20:07, _Condottiero_ said:

Another interesting option would be to add 65/17 su Morris CS8, but I don't really know about its AT capabilities.

https://www.o5m6.de/wehrmacht_old/Morris_CS8_Autocannone.html

Morris%20CS8%20Autocannone_06.jpg

 

 

 

if the 60/17 do have a AP shell, it could easily get about 40mm of penetration mostly because the shell is heavy enough. but it's likely to only have HE and other kind of support shell like Incendiary and smoke.

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On 19/07/2019 at 19:12, CaID said:

 

if the 60/17 do have a AP shell, it could easily get about 40mm of penetration mostly because the shell is heavy enough. but it's likely to only have HE and other kind of support shell like Incendiary and smoke.

The 65/17 gun has AP, EP, and EPS shells.

image.thumb.png.19b0aef6cce51196a6cc4d8a

image.thumb.png.84cecd2d422dd52216c68205

 

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giving gaijin more reason to listen and less trouble there is no need to add new vehicles. First m13/40 l can stay as a solid reserve to not scare new players trying out Italy. m13/40 ll will remain at 1.0, m13/40 lll will go up to 1.3. Second reserve can be L6/40 and not ab41 because again giving new players a wheeled reserve that drive different from all other reserves in game is wrong so players feel better with L6’s tracks. Third reserve can be the 20mm L3. 

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One correction: the Panzer II is no longer a reserve tank. Current german reserves are the PZ.IIIB and the PZ.35.

 

That said, the 37mm L6/40 would be an interesting reserve tank together with the M13 (I). I'd also prefer if Italy wasn't the only nation with two variants of the same tank as reserves.

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22 hours ago, Ruthless95 said:

giving gaijin more reason to listen and less trouble there is no need to add new vehicles. First m13/40 l can stay as a solid reserve to not scare new players trying out Italy. m13/40 ll will remain at 1.0, m13/40 lll will go up to 1.3. Second reserve can be L6/40 and not ab41 because again giving new players a wheeled reserve that drive different from all other reserves in game is wrong so players feel better with L6’s tracks. Third reserve can be the 20mm L3. 

the 20mm L3 is a solid 1.0 but assault tank aren't as ambivalent to play as the turreted tank. and also, there is no need of third reserve, tanks only use 2 reserve. The M13/40 (II) have no reason to be change from the gifted-Premium reserve and can easily be raised to 1.3 without changing his role. the French H39 Cambrone was alos 1.3 before they kicked out the tank armed with the Sa-18. and i was surprise they didn't just put the H-35 rearmed with the Sa-38 as reserve or the R-35 armed with the SA-38 gun as reserve. the H-39 is just a a much faster version of the tank.

9 hours ago, PlanyKaanere said:

One correction: the Panzer II is no longer a reserve tank. Current german reserves are the PZ.IIIB and the PZ.35.

 

That said, the 37mm L6/40 would be an interesting reserve tank together with the M13 (I). I'd also prefer if Italy wasn't the only nation with two variants of the same tank as reserves.

i didn't noticed it before you mentioned it. The Pz.IIIB is a still decent tank but the PzGr.40 shell are still over-performing on the Reserve level. even on the 20mm. but without it. i feel it's fairly ballance for the Japanese I-Go, the French H-39 and R-35 (SA-38) and the Italian 47/32.  the OQF 2 pounder and the 37mm M3 and 45mm 20K are also a bit too strong for the newly added reserve tank. it create a unbalanced gameplay. the solution is to add different tank as reserve. british Vickers Light Mk IVc with the 15mm HMG, the Russian BT-2 and T-26 with the  37 mm Model 30 and the Armerican M2 Combat car (not the light tank) with the 12.7mm gun. the German just need to add the early series of the Panzer II with the lowercase (Ausf a, Ausf b, Ausf c). same as the panzer II ausf C but with the Kwk 30 gun and not using the PzGr.40 shells as they wasn't used in the front line when the PzGr.40 was really needed. the Regular shells would do fine for balancing the reserve.

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This is what I suggested elsewhere. I definitely understand there might be an issue for new players having a casemate reserve, but I think we might need some more low tier Italian vehicles to really play around with everything. 

 

- M11/39: I would drop this to 1.0. I would also move it before the M13/40 (I) & (III) and make the M11/39 a reserve. As it is currently worse than the existing reserves.

 

 - M13/40 (I), (II) & (III): I would move these to 1.3, they would no longer be the reserves. They have decent armour and decent guns for reserve machines. 

 

- AB41 & L6/40: I would swap their BR positions. The L6/40 is fairly underwhelming, I would also make it the second reserve.

  

- 47/32 L40: I would drop this to 1.3. It’s no better than the M13/40’s.

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On 28/07/2019 at 22:53, Jarms said:

This is what I suggested elsewhere. I definitely understand there might be an issue for new players having a casemate reserve, but I think we might need some more low tier Italian vehicles to really play around with everything. 

 

- M11/39: I would drop this to 1.0. I would also move it before the M13/40 (I) & (III) and make the M11/39 a reserve. As it is currently worse than the existing reserves. 

 

 - M13/40 (I), (II) & (III): I would move these to 1.3, they would no longer be the reserves. They have decent armour and decent guns for reserve machines.  

 

- AB41 & L6/40: I would swap their BR positions. The L6/40 is fairly underwhelming, I would also make it the second reserve.

  

- 47/32 L40: I would drop this to 1.3. It’s no better than the M13/40’s.

if the keep the 6 sec of reload of the M13/40 series I, the tanks can fairly fit in 1.3 with the Add-on Armour. but i would like to know what justify the reload time that is twice as long as the Series II and III. the turret is mostly identical and the gun is identical. the only difference was the square hole on the top to allow a lower depression of the gun. it do no justify a faster reload, it justify 3-4 degree more to the gun depression.

 

but Saping the BR of the AB41, i am angainst it. the AB41 is not really good. it have a good speed, but not much Armour, even the MGs are a treat to him in short range. the gun have half the magazine of the L6/40 and it's start with 1 penetrating shell for 3 HE shells which is useless against ground target (except the GAZ AAA which you have decent chance to meet). i would say the AB41 stay at 1.0 and his italian AP shells should be given in stock along with the HE/AP belt. the L6/40 is decently armoured for a reserve but it have a very nice 20mm gun with 16 round magazine. i did say it's fairly good at 1.3. and there is always the posibility to give it the Add-on armour too.

Spoiler

Polizei_Slovenia_1945.jpgL6_Loski_Potok_Slovenia.jpg

 

here is a L6/40 with German marking of Polizei unit Slovenia 1945 and addon armour

 

i am against to add the add-on armour on tank that receive it from other services but i give us a clear clue they possibly had it also in Italian services. the Italian was know to improve their M13/40's with add-on armour to face the better guns of the allied in north africa and Sicily. so why whould they stop before the L6/40? they do had rack for the fuel or water jerrycan. it would be easy to fit track there. all we need is historical picture of the L6/40 IN THE ITALIAN SERVICES to prove it. it might exist or maybe not.

L6_40_10.jpg

L6_40_RE_4029.jpg

 

Edited by CaID
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