*Hurricanefire32

Cheiftain 120mm penetration Documents

Hopefully some of you guys can help me out on this.

 

I wanted to know if anyone has access to the 120mm L11A5's gun performance for the Cheiftain, mainly the earlier variants firing APDS ammunition

 

I can't seem to get my head around the fact that the Cheiftain can only penetrate 305mm of armour at 500m, it doesn't seem possible considering the Cheiftain was the successor to the Centurion MK10 and therefore should present a much more improved level of penetration and just for comparisons sake :

 

Centurion MK10's 105mm L7A1 : 296mm at 500m @ 90°

 

Cheiftain MK3/MK5 120mm L11A5 : 305mm at 500m @ 90° 

 

This is a difference of 9mm of penetration and it just seems impossible that this is real cause surely if you are going to build a new tank with a new gun your going to make sure that it can penetrate much more armour than your previous design!

 

Maybe some offical documents may shed some more light on the issue or maybe these are realistic values?

 

Otherwise hopefully someone can help me out with this, Thanks.

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The L28 105 mm APDS could penetrate 120 mm of armor at 60° at up to 914 m while the L15 120 mm APDS could penetrate 150 mm of armor at 60° at the same range.

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4 hours ago, Auto_tracking said:

The L28 105 mm APDS could penetrate 120 mm of armor at 60° at up to 914 m while the L15 120 mm APDS could penetrate 150 mm of armor at 60° at the same range.

I understand that the 60° penetration will be different but again it seems rather marginal and I'm looking for the official documents of firing tests of the 120mm L11A5 not what the game claims since I don't know how reliable it is

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1 hour ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

I understand that the 60° penetration will be different but again it seems rather marginal and I'm looking for the official documents of firing tests of the 120mm L11A5 not what the game claims since I don't know how reliable it is

It was Gen III APDS, it traded vertical penetration for angled penetration better than APFSDST of the similar period. It's pen is fine.

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12 hours ago, ARedneckSquirel said:

It was Gen III APDS, it traded vertical penetration for angled penetration better than APFSDST of the similar period. It's pen is fine.

Fair enough but I'm still looking for official documents for the firing tests just to see if the in-game values are actually correct

 

I'm currently researching the Cheiftain MK3 and considering its BR spread and the APDS spalling I'm already worried its not going to do well, even in Test Range it takes three shots to destroy the T-62 and the T-64 1971 cannot be penetrated at range at all by the Cheiftain unless it hits the lower plate or that very narrow gap around the gun

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22 hours ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

even in Test Range it takes three shots to destroy the T-62

 

I'm sorry, but that is down to poor aim.

It really should not take more than 2 shots to kill a mere T-62.

 

22 hours ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

and the T-64 1971 cannot be penetrated at range at all by the Cheiftain

 

Yes it can.

The upper glacis of the T-64 is significantly underperforming, the Chieftain's APDS will have no issue going through up to 1000m.

 

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2 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

 

I'm sorry, but that is down to poor aim.

It really should not take more than 2 shots to kill a mere T-62.

 

 

Yes it can.

The upper glacis of the T-64 is significantly underperforming, the Chieftain's APDS will have no issue going through up to 1000m.

 

 Well the "shooting an enemy multiple times to kill" happens with British tanks a lot so I'm not really bothered about it and yeah my aim is probably is poor

 

Maybe I'm shooting the T-64 1971 at a bit of an angle so the rounds aren't penetrating? Is the T-64 underperforming? Just curious since I'm also working through the Russian tech tree as well

4 hours ago, Auto_tracking said:

1562921887-1464368924-l15-apds-versus-sl

Thanks very much!

 

It does seem that the performance is correct although looking at it now it makes sense the British would prioritise 60° penetration since most Soviet tanks have armour angled at 60° and they had hundreds of T-54 / T-55s around

Edited by *Hurricanefire32

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imo the chieftains have suffered horrendously from powercreep and the 8.7 premium-black-hole

all of them are too slow for the competition, the gun/ammo arent any special anymore and the once viable (tho not great) armour is meaningless

 

if the chieftains all received a downtier (or we got a higher BR ceiling and undertiered vehicles would move up) they could be viable again, but currently i cant say they are worth the grind, sweat, tears and lost hair

 

the chieftain mk3 can deal with its enemies, but the mk5 at 8.7 already meets too many vehicles that it just cant fight reliably against, as the APDS just doesnt cut it anymore 

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1 hour ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

 Well the "shooting an enemy multiple times to kill" happens with British tanks a lot so I'm not really bothered about it and yeah my aim is probably is poor

 

Best tip I could give you, is not using APDS when standard AP is available.

Standard AP does far more post-pen damage.

 

Quote

Maybe I'm shooting the T-64 1971 at a bit of an angle so the rounds aren't penetrating?

 

Perhaps, though at that point you can just penetrate the side armour and detonate the ammunition carousel.

 

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Is the T-64 underperforming?

 

Against most ammo types, yes.

 

By about 10-70mm, depending on the exact ammo type.

 

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Just curious since I'm also working through the Russian tech tree as well

 

T-55AM, T-62M1-1 and T-64A all have underperforming upper plates to varying degrees.

 

Best bet is to stick to vehicles that are 8.7 and not 9.0, as the 9.0's get sucked into 10.0 matchmaking where they're absolutely horrendous.

 

Edited by Necrons31467
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7 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

 

Best tip I could give you, is not using APDS when standard AP is available.

Standard AP does far more post-pen damage.

 

 

Perhaps, though at that point you can just penetrate the side armour and detonate the ammunition carousel.

 

 

Against most ammo types, yes.

 

By about 10-70mm, depending on the exact ammo type.

 

 

T-55AM, T-62M1-1 and T-64A all have underperforming upper plates to varying degrees.

 

Best bet is to stick to vehicles that are 8.7 and not 9.0, as the 9.0's get sucked into 10.0 matchmaking where they're absolutely horrendous.

 

Thats my biggests fear with Cheiftain MK10, being pulled into matches it cannot compete in and with the previously mentioned mobility issues versus other tanks makes me worried on the performance overall (Stock APDS at 9.0 is going to be awful I can already see it now)

 

I did re-test the Cheiftain MK3 and I was hitting the top most lip of the glacis and the shell continued and hit the turret making me think that it wasn't penetrating so my bad. It does seem I can penetrate it now so no worries there

 

I'm currently on 7.0 British tanks (with the Conqueror) so unfortunately my only options for ammo are APDS and HESH although on many of my other lower tier tanks I run AP as the main round, AP on Centurion MK3 is actually really awesome if you get a good shot I have found :)

How's the T-72? Not many people I know have it or even talk about it

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9 hours ago, Happalula said:

imo the chieftains have suffered horrendously from powercreep and the 8.7 premium-black-hole

all of them are too slow for the competition, the gun/ammo arent any special anymore and the once viable (tho not great) armour is meaningless

 

if the chieftains all received a downtier (or we got a higher BR ceiling and undertiered vehicles would move up) they could be viable again, but currently i cant say they are worth the grind, sweat, tears and lost hair

 

the chieftain mk3 can deal with its enemies, but the mk5 at 8.7 already meets too many vehicles that it just cant fight reliably against, as the APDS just doesnt cut it anymore 

As much as the British tech tree is hell its a matter of nation pride! I need to reach the end of the tree no matter how frustratingly awful the experience because once Britain has been fully researched then I can focus on the other tech trees

 

Also if the three T-54 models can share a BR then why can't our Cheiftains? The only difference to the MK3 and MK5 is the engine power whereas all three T-54's have massive changes to them but they can share that BR

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1 hour ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

How's the T-72? Not many people I know have it or even talk about it

 

It's a tank that gets sucked into 10.0, where it gets roflstomped by vastly superior machines.

 

1 hour ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

Also if the three T-54 models can share a BR then why can't our Cheiftains? The only difference to the MK3 and MK5 is the engine power whereas all three T-54's have massive changes to them but they can share that BR

 

Chieftain Mk 5 should've been changed to 8.3 about 2 years back, but aside from that, the T-54's keep changing upgrades and downgrades, that's why they stay at the same BR.

 

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1 hour ago, *Hurricanefire32 said:

 

 

Also if the three T-54 models can share a BR then why can't our Cheiftains? The only difference to the MK3 and MK5 is the engine power whereas all three T-54's have massive changes to them but they can share that BR

A better question is if leo2a4 and a5 are "close enough" to be the same br (when they're miles apart in capability) why the hell does a 100hp increase on the cheiftain mk 5 warrant a .4 br increase?

(That's just an example br 10.0 btw, I could say the same for t80b/t80u, m1 m1a1 ect)

 

Gaijin are honestly the most useless developers perhaps in history when it comes to balancing a game. I'm not even joking, the recent br changes were hilariously half assed. Moving the chieftains down (all of them) at the very least should have happened by now. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dantheman66 said:

A better question is if leo2a4 and a5 are "close enough" to be the same br (when they're miles apart in capability) why the hell does a 100hp increase on the cheiftain mk 5 warrant a .4 br increase?

(That's just an example br 10.0 btw, I could say the same for t80b/t80u, m1 m1a1 ect)

 

Gaijin are honestly the most useless developers perhaps in history when it comes to balancing a game. I'm not even joking, the recent br changes were hilariously half assed. Moving the chieftains down (all of them) at the very least should have happened by now. 

 

by now the mk3 could go 8.0 mk5 8.3 and the mk10 8.7 .. 

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7 hours ago, Nijiko said:

by now the mk3 could go 8.0 mk5 8.3 and the mk10 8.7 .. 

yeah or both mk 5 and mk3 at 8.0 even

honestly there's barely any difference between them. You've got say the of 40 and the prem version with much more significant differences in hp/ton at the same br, so I don't see why mk 5 warrants a higher br in the first place.

The only way mk 5 would be warranted at a higher br than mk 3 is if gaijin gave it apfsds.

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15 hours ago, Nijiko said:

by now the mk3 could go 8.0 mk5 8.3 and the mk10 8.7 .. 

Cheiftain wouldn't even be bad at 8.0 either specially with that Lower plate weakness and the poor engine power, it would be a little bit like the Churchill MKIII in that it would have heavy armour and a powerful gun but slow top speed

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8 hours ago, Dantheman66 said:

yeah or both mk 5 and mk3 at 8.0 even

honestly there's barely any difference between them. You've got say the of 40 and the prem version with much more significant differences in hp/ton at the same br, so I don't see why mk 5 warrants a higher br in the first place.

The only way mk 5 would be warranted at a higher br than mk 3 is if gaijin gave it apfsds.

Totally agreed.

 

All I know for sure is that Britain needs a full re-work based on the players of the British tech tree's opinions and thoughts

 

Challenger /Chieftain re-work and APDS / HESH rework should be top priority for Gaijin when concerning the British tree

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On 13/07/2019 at 19:27, *Hurricanefire32 said:

Cheiftain wouldn't even be bad at 8.0 either specially with that Lower plate weakness and the poor engine power, it would be a little bit like the Churchill MKIII in that it would have heavy armour and a powerful gun but slow top speed

even at 8.0 its not a hard nut to crack with the amount of cheat-fs flying around ..

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44 minutes ago, MuricaxSuffers said:

even at 8.0 its not a hard nut to crack with the amount of cheat-fs flying around ..

 

Chieftain Mk 3 - Leopard 1 - M60 - T-54 used to be the top tier lineup, I have no clue why the Chieftains aren't near the same BR's as the others, especially now that HESH isn't anywhere near as powerful as it was then.

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14 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

 

Chieftain Mk 3 - Leopard 1 - M60 - T-54 used to be the top tier lineup, I have no clue why the Chieftains aren't near the same BR's as the others, especially now that HESH isn't anywhere near as powerful as it was then.

good qustion i mean you can still kill it rather easy with cheat-fs you dont even need to aim for some weak spots or something.
its not like the chieftain can run around the map like the leopard or so but well only gajoob knows why 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ its just sad playing it vs t55am leopard L44 and the others with acces to high pen apfsds ... 

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On 15/07/2019 at 14:34, MuricaxSuffers said:

good qustion i mean you can still kill it rather easy with cheat-fs you dont even need to aim for some weak spots or something.
its not like the chieftain can run around the map like the leopard or so but well only gajoob knows why 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ its just sad playing it vs t55am leopard L44 and the others with acces to high pen apfsds ... 

Over performing APHE rounds and over performing HEAT-FS and the British are stuck with poorly performing APDS and HESH rounds

 

I just want to have an enjoyable experience not have my "Armour" useless at every match

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On 14/07/2019 at 23:37, Necrons31467 said:

 

Chieftain Mk 3 - Leopard 1 - M60 - T-54 used to be the top tier lineup, I have no clue why the Chieftains aren't near the same BR's as the others, especially now that HESH isn't anywhere near as powerful as it was then.

I actually believe that past 6.7 Britain is close to being unplayable and even at 6.7 all you see is T-54's and IS-3's so even then its still hard to play them

 

I go back to 4.0 just to play more fun tanks like the Churchill MKIII which actually has some level of armour unlike literally all later British tanks

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On 16/07/2019 at 23:50, *Hurricanefire32 said:

I actually believe that past 6.7 Britain is close to being unplayable and even at 6.7 all you see is T-54's and IS-3's so even then its still hard to play them

 

I go back to 4.0 just to play more fun tanks like the Churchill MKIII which actually has some level of armour unlike literally all later British tanks

As long as APDS and HESH are terribad it'l be a nightmare. Don't forget completely broken design on challengers. 

 

 

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The cheiftains in game sloped pen is about right, same with the conqueror but the flat pen is missing quite a bit. The Chieftain I believe could penetrate 380mm 90o at 100m, the conqueror could pen a whopping 478mm at 90o at 100m.

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