Private_Wolk

OF-40 Mk.2 MTCA: Real Deal or Paper Fantasy?

I have been looking everywhere for an actual source on this vehicle lately and I can't seem to find any primary documentation. On the Gaijin website it says "this premium version represents modernized modification of the tank proposed to UAE with a more powerful 1000hp Fiat MTCA diesel engine" but it does not explicitly say if this tank was definitely built and tested. There is a big difference between a proposal for modernization and an actual prototype built, which is it? I would appreciate it if a moderator or Italian community expert can clarify with me the facts about this vehicle. Thanks!

 

https://warthunder.com/en/news/6201-shop-of-40-mk-2-mtca-pre-order-en

Edited by Private_Wolk
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It's a proposal AFAIK, the actual vehicle that had this particular engine would be the OF-40 MK. 2A1

OF-40_MK_2A.jpg

 

From here:

 

It's a paper upgrade to an existing tank. Wouldn't be surprised if Gaijin decides to nerf the engine if there's no historical documentation of this particular OF-40 mk2a getting this engine as a testbed. Regardless, Gaijin kinda cheaped out by not giving us of what;s essentially the XM-1 for Italy

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See http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/italy-coldwar-of-40-mk2-main-battle-tank/ - 3 options formaking it more mobile were offered - none accepted

 

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8 minutes ago, lVrizl said:

He's specifically asking for primary documentation that the engine was fitted to the tank as a prototype

 

No he isn't actually asking for that "specifically" - but as it says on that page:  

 

Quote

 The United Arab Emirates had been unhappy with the relatively poor mobility of the OF 40 despite the claims of the manufacturers and as a result, Fiat offered two options. One was the refitting of their own Fiat MTCA V-12 supercharged diesel engine producing 1,000 hp or further enhanced to 1,200 hp. A final simpler option was to simply enhance the existing 830hp engine as already fitted to deliver 950hp. None of these three options is thought to have taken place.

 

So "that" seems unlikely to exist anywhere.

Edited by Josephs_Piano
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1 hour ago, Josephs_Piano said:

 

No he isn't actually asking for that "specifically" - but as it says on that page:   

 

 

So "that" seems unlikely to exist anywhere.

Which leads back to the original point that OP is asking if there's primary documentation that the engine was implemented.

 

Semantics regardless, but yea, very unlikely for documentation on it as an actual variant

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10 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

Tell me, what is this paper modification? All the italian tanks in game were built and tested at least.

Just because some of them are not famous it doesn't mean it's a paper design.

The OF-40 Mk.2 MTCA never existed in a built form, it was just a proposal for modernization that never got carried out. Therefore it's technically a paper tank and has no place in War Thunder unless the developers have changed their minds on this subject in the last year.

 

 

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On 24/05/2019 at 20:14, Private_Wolk said:

The OF-40 Mk.2 MTCA never existed in a built form, it was just a proposal for modernization that never got carried out. Therefore it's technically a paper tank and has no place in War Thunder unless the developers have changed their minds on this subject in the last year.

 

sources? because Italian sources tells: "1 OF-40 was equipped and tested at Iveco's factory with the C1 Ariete's (with power limitation at 1000hp) engine that was in developement and proposed as standard modernization for EAU OF-40s (that in that period were already upgrated to Mk.2A standard). So this is even more reliable than Tiger II SLA

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On 24/05/2019 at 21:50, BlueBeta said:

sources? because Italian sources tells: "1 OF-40 was equipped and tested at Iveco's factory with the C1 Ariete's (with power limitation at 1000hp) engine that was in developement and proposed as standard modernization for EAU OF-40s (that in that period were already upgrated to Mk.2A standard). So this is even more reliable than Tiger II SLA

And which sources are these? Can you provide a citation please so I know you're being truthful.  The user "Josephs_Piano" claims that the modification was likely never carried out despite the proposal. How do we know for sure that it was a Mk.2 given the upgrade? I despise it when Gaijin implements vehicles that have little back trace behind them so we can't contest their characteristics.

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1 hour ago, Private_Wolk said:

And which sources are these?

image.png

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10 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

sources? because Italian sources tells: "1 OF-40 was equipped and tested at OTO's factory with the C1 Ariete's (with power limitation at 1000hp) engine that was in developement and proposed as standard modernization for EAU OF-40s (that in that period were already upgrated to Mk.2A standard). So this is even more reliable than Tiger II SLA

MTCA is Ariete engine without turbocharger, isn't it?

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Topics merged

Just because common people can't find anything or enought things staying at home via internet instead buying or consulting real books, this doesn't means that something is totally invented. Invent things or paper things is not my style and you already know about the "no P43 policy" i have for example.

 

The engine was mounted and tested in 1 OF-40 at Iveco's factory in Italy and proposed as standard modernization for all the tanks in UAE but cancelled in favour of a new tank.

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1 hour ago, BlueBeta said:

Topics merged

Just because common people can't find anything or enought things staying at home via internet instead buying or consulting real books, this doesn't means that something is totally invented. Invent things or paper things is not my style and you already know about the "no P43 policy" i have for example.

 

The engine was mounted and tested in 1 OF-40 at Iveco's factory in Italy and proposed as standard modernization for all the tanks in UAE but cancelled in favour of a new tank.

And once again what is the source of this claim of yours? Do you have photos, official documentation of this taking place? To avoid another "Ariete" disaster I am asking for a full disclosure of the facts here on this thread. The community awaits the truth. 

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6 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

Topics merged

Just because common people can't find anything or enought things staying at home via internet instead buying or consulting real books, this doesn't means that something is totally invented. Invent things or paper things is not my style and you already know about the "no P43 policy" i have for example.

 

The engine was mounted and tested in 1 OF-40 at Iveco's factory in Italy and proposed as standard modernization for all the tanks in UAE but cancelled in favour of a new tank.

That's really cool and stuff, but I remember a certain italian premium that got its stabiliser taken away cause nobody decided it would be a good idea to maybe research info on the vehicle and instead just copy-pasted the M60A1 AOS. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me and all that. Would be good policy to give proof from now on that a premium isn't made up nonsense, specially since apparently the customers need to pay for that mistake.

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this is funny as i did a post with the same topic

 

the tank eventually should have existed because for fitting the engine in the of40 they needed to see if it fitted and try to see if the tank could work but the thing is the engine swap was made for the MK2A and not for a variant with 105mm gun, so basically gaijin should fit the 120mm ( not like the l44 leopard exist duh ) and i actually would care if it goes up in br

 

 

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10 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

The engine was mounted and tested in 1 OF-40 at Iveco's factory in Italy and proposed as standard modernization for all the tanks in UAE but cancelled in favour of a new tank.

 

You still haven't provided documentation btw

 

On 24/05/2019 at 15:03, BlueBeta said:

image.png

 

 

We understand that 1 OF-40 had the engine in it, the issue here is, is it actually tested on an OF-40 Mk.2A with the 105mm? The same variant that the UAE considered to be essentially underwhelming in particular to it's firepower and mobility at the time?

 

Or is it tested on an OF-40 Mk.2A that had various upgrades to improve on it's capabilities by upgunning it and new engine? Because the OF-40 MK.2A1 is also an OF-40, with 1 prototype, and certainly fits the bill of the single OF-40 that was tested but still lost out to the Leclerc. By all means, if there's documentation saying there was 2 separate OF-40s that were tested with the engine, an 105mm and the 120mm, all the more power. That's another OF-40 that has the possibility to be added.... but the vagueness of the responses given certainly keeps leading back to this "1 OF-40" being the sole one to be referenced

OF-40_MK_2A.jpg

 

 

Again... why would the UAE consider a modernization of the OF-40 Mk.2a, a 105mm with just an improved engine when the Leclerc was an option here.

 

 

 

On 11/12/2017 at 08:04, Redberseker said:

OF-40 MK. 2A1

 

 

The prototype of the OF-40 MK. 2A1

OF-40_MK_2A.jpg


At the end of the eighties the project of the OF-40 turned out to be less competitive because of the armament, which at international level had stabilized on 120 mm pieces and so was proposed a version equipped with a weapon of that caliber, from insert into an enlarged turret very similar to that of the Ariete in design. Other improvements included minor changes to the hull, a 1,000 hp supercharged engine system, a fully automatic transmission with electro-hydraulic transmission (four forward gears, two reverse gears), a water cooling system with two air-cooled radiators, with fans thermostatically controlled designed for desert conditions; to reduce infrared detection, the cooling air was mixed with the exhaust gases and ejected to the sides of the rear hull. The existence of this machine was announced in 1993 and the OTO assembled a partial prototype, but the project did not collect the hoped-for success and the development was halted in 1997.

 

On a personal note:

10 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

Just because common people can't find anything or enought things staying at home via internet instead buying or consulting real books, this doesn't means that something is totally invented. Invent things or paper things is not my style and you already know about the "no P43 policy" i have for example. 

 

The playerbase has to adhere to the standard Gaijin set by providing primary documentation or more than one secondary source documentation that is saying the same thing to otherwise request a vehicle to be more historically represented ingame. This is one of the greatest hurdles players have to cross through and we work with available documents that are publicly available. The most glaring example is again, the M60A1's turret. Anyone invested in that still ongoing debacle knows the sorry state it's in. The "common people" have made the effort on their part

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.d869517e8b671fdca4270b6f

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/6y8y9y/m60a1_you_will_not_believe_this/

 

It's gone to the point both the playerbase and Gaijin has to fly out someone just to measure the thickness of the turret mantlet.. nearly a whole year later

https://warthunder.com/en/news/5782-development-to-minnesota-for-the-abrams-en

 

Guess what came of it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/a5arpi/the_mantlet_wasnt_fixed_btw/ and it still isn't to this very day. ((Meanwhile, volumetric armor has been added for the Soviet Top Tier tanks))

 

 

All we're asking is a source on this. Not a response that's ambiguous considering the aforementioned OF-40 Mk.2A1 as being the variant of the OF-40 you're referencing to that was tested with the engine.

 

Edited by lVrizl
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2 hours ago, lVrizl said:

Again... why would the UAE consider a modernization of the OF-40 Mk.2a, a 105mm with just an improved engine when the Leclerc was an option here.

In fact i wrote that this improvement was cancelled by EAU in favour of a new tank. They bought leclercs, you are confusing the years guessing is the 1993 tank whilr the OF-40 are '80s tanks, this modernization program was tested even before the Ariete was finished.

The Italian tree got only real tanks, for fantasy,paper or wooden there are other tech trees.

 

The OF-40mk2A1 (in some case called Mk.3) is not clear if real or not. That photo (the only published one) is too shadow to be taken as real. It could be a mockup turret or a photoshop like the Leone.

 

For sure the OF-40 got this engine for tests as already told many times. This discussion it's over.

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41 minutes ago, BlueBeta said:

For sure the OF-40 got this engine for tests as already told many times. This discussion it's over.

Again, you didn't provide documentation

 

This is all it is, we're supposed to take your word alone without any proof:

image.thumb.png.b45b93dedead8ccbbc44353e

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1 minute ago, _Condottiero_ said:

This photo is photoshopped one?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 


5z3xW1N.jpg
 

 

 

probably not, but it does not prove anything concerning the engine.

 

 

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