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Lahgtah

What's wrong with the Ta-152?

This plane feels like it wants to fall out of the sky at any moment. Even slight course adjustments as little as 20 degrees bleeds 10-20mph. When trying to roll defensively, the plane often "jerks" aggressively in the opposite direction. It has no maneuverability to speak of, and isn't particularly fast or quick to accelerate at common altitudes either.

 

What's the point?

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2 hours ago, PickleJarOfDeath said:

Spades or stock?

Nearly spaded except for gun upgrades. I'll find that in aggressive defensive maneuvers to try and force an overshoot, the aircraft has a volatile tendency to snap in the opposite direction or just outright refuse to roll at all.

 

In level flight, mild turns will bleed absurd amounts of speed. It's kind of like the same problems the Italian Macchi planes now have, with their rudder acting as an airbrake. I'll notice after a mild turn, planes like these will stay "ajar" for a moment as if slipping, gradually straightening out as opposed to immediately like other planes. The difference is that Macchi's at least have great acceleration and turn rates, so it's not too big of a deal for them. The Ta-152 has neither, thus I'm not sure how to compensate or what to do other than risky head-ons(I really do not like head-ons, and avoid them if at all possible.)

 

It could also just be me, because I never was a fan of 190's as they never really suited what I desire out of a propeller fighter plane, but I thought the long-winged 152 would be different. Once I unlock the gun upgrades, it's hangar decoration. I never thought I'd say this about any plane, but the He-162 is more pleasant to fly.

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16 hours ago, Lahgtah said:

Nearly spaded except for gun upgrades. I'll find that in aggressive defensive maneuvers to try and force an overshoot, the aircraft has a volatile tendency to snap in the opposite direction or just outright refuse to roll at all.

 

In level flight, mild turns will bleed absurd amounts of speed. It's kind of like the same problems the Italian Macchi planes now have, with their rudder acting as an airbrake. I'll notice after a mild turn, planes like these will stay "ajar" for a moment as if slipping, gradually straightening out as opposed to immediately like other planes. The difference is that Macchi's at least have great acceleration and turn rates, so it's not too big of a deal for them. The Ta-152 has neither, thus I'm not sure how to compensate or what to do other than risky head-ons(I really do not like head-ons, and avoid them if at all possible.)

 

It could also just be me, because I never was a fan of 190's as they never really suited what I desire out of a propeller fighter plane, but I thought the long-winged 152 would be different. Once I unlock the gun upgrades, it's hangar decoration. I never thought I'd say this about any plane, but the He-162 is more pleasant to fly.

The point of the Ta152 is: It keeps Energy like only few other fighters do. 

 

I am sorry, but the Bleeding of Speed is blalantly wrong.

 

The Ta-152H1 has the best Energy Retention during Maneuvers of any plane in the Game. Infact, the only plane that comes close is the Tempest Mk. II. That is even after taking into account turn-time.

Youtuber Adam 514 has a Energy Retention Video on this:

Here is his Spread-Sheet comparing the Maneuvering Energy Retention.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcFv3eaKcCgWU2595Fd23pEPXjnogt-NSC839fSagIE/edit#gid=0

 

 

And here is a Tactics video by Green_Fury:

 

 

 

You can absolutely decimate any US plane during dogfights, only Spitfires will give you a run for your money.  I have flown the Ta in about 70 games - I like it! I would always take it over the K4.

 

Shoot me a PM if more Info needed.

Edited by JG14_godrin_b
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16 hours ago, Lahgtah said:

Nearly spaded except for gun upgrades. I'll find that in aggressive defensive maneuvers to try and force an overshoot, the aircraft has a volatile tendency to snap in the opposite direction or just outright refuse to roll at all.

 

In level flight, mild turns will bleed absurd amounts of speed. It's kind of like the same problems the Italian Macchi planes now have, with their rudder acting as an airbrake. I'll notice after a mild turn, planes like these will stay "ajar" for a moment as if slipping, gradually straightening out as opposed to immediately like other planes. The difference is that Macchi's at least have great acceleration and turn rates, so it's not too big of a deal for them. The Ta-152 has neither, thus I'm not sure how to compensate or what to do other than risky head-ons(I really do not like head-ons, and avoid them if at all possible.)

 

It could also just be me, because I never was a fan of 190's as they never really suited what I desire out of a propeller fighter plane, but I thought the long-winged 152 would be different. Once I unlock the gun upgrades, it's hangar decoration. I never thought I'd say this about any plane, but the He-162 is more pleasant to fly.

 

The instructor makes excessive use of the rudder in WT. On many aircrafts, excessive rudder use drains alot of speed.

 

The good news is it can been worked around with ease : If you bank your aircraft manually by using keyboard roll input, the instructor no longer has to use the rudder as much and then moslty use the elevator for the maneuver.

 

Manually rolling using keyboard inputs to initiate maneuvers also prevents the tendency to snap rolls and the weird no-roll situations.

 

That's really how Fw190/Ta152 were intended to be flawn by the way. With minimal rudder use.

 

So in WT, Pre-roll before any mouse input to get the instructor using as less rudder as possible and using mostly elevator instead.

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2 hours ago, SuperDuperOtter said:

That's really how Fw190/Ta152 were intended to be flawn by the way. With minimal rudder use.

I'd be more assertive. That's mostly how any aircraft is intended to be flown, if you fly it with a stick and not mouse aim.

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6 hours ago, JG14_godrin_b said:

I am sorry, but the Bleeding of Speed is blalantly wrong.

Take it into a test flight, then mildly adjust level turns left or right. You will bleed off anywhere from 10-20mph just in a very gradual 20 degree turn. It gets worse the longer you turn.

 

This puts you an immediate disadvantage when you need to change course to head towards or away from opponents. Say you're climbing on normandy off to the left, enemies are spotted 6km's to the right, and you want to help your teammates. Level off, make a shallow turn as to try not to lose speed, but you lose it anyways as if you were pulling a hard maneuver. There's only a few other planes I've experienced that in, but the part about the Ta-152 is that it doesn't feel like it can gain it back very well. It feels like flying a P-51D-5 with its poor level-flight acceleration, but with the rudder-airbrake issues of a MC202/205.

 

5 hours ago, SuperDuperOtter said:

The good news is it can been worked around with ease : If you bank your aircraft manually by using keyboard roll input, the instructor no longer has to use the rudder as much and then moslty use the elevator for the maneuver. 

That doesn't always work, especially on aircraft with particularly quick roll rates. You'll be tapping the A or D key, causing your plane to wobble about as the instructor tries to level out the plane, the rudder will be kicking this way and that. I've also never rolled with a mouse in the first place, not intentionally at least.

 

Where this issue came up the worst in particular was when I was trying to escape a spitfire mk9. We spotted each other at roughly 2 and a half kilometers out on Norway at 5.2 kilometers altitude - both of us were at the same height. I had two options, try to rush past him in a false head-on, or turn away as there was no way I'd be able to dogfight him. I decided to turn and flee in the opposite direction, only to have him catch up with me. I tried a gradual turn to bleed his speed, but it only made things worse as my speed bled faster than his(due to the rudder most likely.) With him now about 1.3 kilometers behind me and closing in fast, and with all my teammates too far away, I had to do something, so I rolled the plane over into a split-S.

 

However, as predicted, the spitfire followed through. What was not predicted was how close he was, now within shooting range, and how I was gaining no distance whatsoever. Options running out, I put the plane into a dive, and he was not only staying with me, but getting even closer with bullets whizzing this way and that. The last thing I could try was cutting throttle and rolling about to maybe to get him to overshoot. Here I was purposely trying to bleed speed, but he caught on and pulled back his throttle in kind, and to make matters worse, I felt the plane jerk about when trying to roll even at high speed and 0% throttle. It'd be incredibly difficult to roll, but then suddenly snap in one direction and jerk in the other; at this point it was obvious the rudder was causing it to snap in these directions as the ailerons were too compressed.

 

The only reason I survived that was because 2 109's came down, after which the spitfire decided to tangle with them than lose more altitude. Now I was way down at around 1.5km's altitude. Not good, and the whole enemy team was coming in from the north. I tried to go in the opposite direction to gain at least some altitude to play with, taking out two P-51D's who were preoccupied on a fellow 109 in the process, but then the whole battled devolved into a furball above the ocean. I had no room to try and gain altitude or any real distance, as I simply could not accelerate fast enough, where thing then turned into a turnfighting mess. I was able to evade incoming diving passes once or twice with about 2 seconds between both, but then I was almost completely out of speed, where the engine torque was causing my plane to jerk about. Tried to level out and gain a bit of speed before latching onto the tail of a P-47, but he turned faster than I could, and then I got blasted by a wyvern. Climactic, I know.

 

There were subsequent battles as well where these problems costed me a kill or got me kicked back to hangar, but this one in particular had an example of every one. The plane just does not feel like it offers much to work with, all because of that dumb rudder. The lack of acceleration I could deal with, as I do just fine with US planes, but the Ta-152H was like the plane equivalent of a misbehaving child kicking and screaming his way to school. I just cannot find anything to work with; I'm fighting my own plane than I am the enemy.

 

No big deal, I suppose. I've always got the more reliable 109's to fall back on(that's not to say the K-4 is a plane I'm fond of, either, for it has its own set of annoyances, but I'd rather fly it than a Ta-152H if it came down to it.)

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I’d say try the 152 C. I like that thing a lot more than the other German contemporaries. The H should have great energy retention in a turn though. I’m a little surprised that someone would say otherwise. As for the 162 I love that thing. I have curb stomped MiG-9s in it. It’s really more capable than most think. I have taken a few Yak-23s in it as well back when they could see each other.

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1 hour ago, Lahgtah said:

Take it into a test flight, then mildly adjust level turns left or right. You will bleed off anywhere from 10-20mph just in a very gradual 20 degree turn. It gets worse the longer you turn.

 

 

You shall try to roll first, then turn. You loose a lot less speed that way. 

 

Proof video (Courtesy of Adam514) :

 

Ta152H1 starts turning at 02:54 with 550kph

Roughly 180° turn complete at 02:59 with speed of 520kph => 30kph lost, about 19mph 

3 Quarter Turn complete at 03:05 with Speed of 494kph => 56kph lost.

 

Conclusion: Either you were turning in a chandell - a 180° climbing turn with the Result of gaining altitude while turning. Or you pulled flaps in an agressive fashion.

 

If you read the Spreadsheet based on the video, you see that you only loose 73kph/45mph (548-475) in a full 360° turn, starting from 550kph at sea level:

image.thumb.png.a4e3cbec27518e29b8b0be81

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcFv3eaKcCgWU2595Fd23pEPXjnogt-NSC839fSagIE/edit#gid=0

 

Edit: Here you also see that the Spit MK IX indeed looses a lot more speed in a turn than you do.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lahgtah said:

 

 

Where this issue came up the worst in particular was when I was trying to escape a spitfire mk9. We spotted each other at roughly 2 and a half kilometers out on Norway at 5.2 kilometers altitude - both of us were at the same height. I had two options, try to rush past him in a false head-on, or turn away as there was no way I'd be able to dogfight him. I decided to turn and flee in the opposite direction, only to have him catch up with me. I tried a gradual turn to bleed his speed, but it only made things worse as my speed bled faster than his(due to the rudder most likely.) With him now about 1.3 kilometers behind me and closing in fast, and with all my teammates too far away, I had to do something, so I rolled the plane over into a split-S.

You can dogfight them in the vertical at alt.

 

Watch this video on how to fight Spitfires at Alt - it really is a big help! o7! Helped me too.

 

 

Edited by JG14_godrin_b
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2 hours ago, JG14_godrin_b said:

Conclusion: Either you were turning in a chandell - a 180° climbing turn with the Result of gaining altitude while turning. Or you pulled flaps in an agressive fashion.

Just did another test flight and the gain in altitude is unavoidable in a horizontal turn without the rudder forcing the plane's nose down, resulting in a high loss of speed as well as a sort of "drift" effect where the plane isn't flying straight for a few moments after the turn is complete. Tried it again, this time manually rolling first; same thing happens. You have to dip the nose below the horizon to maintain level flight, or allow it to gain altitude; either way bleeds copious amounts of speed.

 

Other planes will very often keep their speed, or even keep accelerating, and do not require forcing the nose so far down to maintain level flight. In addition, they will not "drift" at an angle. The instructor is putting way too much authority on the Ta-152's rudder, because these problems do not present themselves when testing the same maneuvers with a stick.

2 hours ago, JG14_godrin_b said:

Watch this video on how to fight Spitfires at Alt - it really is a big help! o7! Helped me too.

 

That takes place almost twice as high as the scenario I was in, and at a much further distance of separation. Had I pull a similar maneuver, I would've stalled and been easy pickings. At extremely high altitudes, there's no question that a mk9 spitfire would be out-done; the mk9 simply isn't meant to fight anywhere near that high. These issues aren't taking place at those high altitudes where the air is so thin, and the only battles I've had at such altitudes are against griffon spits and P-47M's, and they weren't really "battles" so much as chasing passive players(which is one of the few times I was glad to be in a Ta-152, because a 109's engine rapidly loses power above 6.5kms, whereas the Ta-152's just keeps getting better all the way up to around 10km's.)

2 hours ago, JG14_godrin_b said:

 

Proof video (Courtesy of Adam514) :

That's a flat, full elevator turn. I can't think of any practical situation where you would want to do that in a Ta-152, especially against a spitfire which could just cut inside you and then match your course. Vertically is where the loss of speed is felt; the plane does not feel heavy so much as "draggy" as if there's an invisible drag-chute behind it. It's difficult to explain. I come down on someone, make a pass, and extend away at a shallow angle only to find I'm losing speed much quicker than anticipated, and that there's not much I can do to get it back. At extremely high altitudes, this doesn't really feel like a problem as few engines match your own up there, and the wider wingspan helps with not stalling out, but said fights at extremely high altitudes are a rarity. In most battles, confrontations are usually at or under 6km's just by virtue of map sizes/objective allocation.

 

Aside from the rudder issues, I would say the issue is trying to fight with it "out of its element." Doesn't really matter now, I've only a couple matches until the plane's last firepower upgrades are unlocked, and then I'll be done with it. Maybe I'll try it again when the rudder thing gets solved.

 

Addendum: none of this is to say the plane is the worst in the game. I have had good matches in it, but that some things about it just don't make sense(the rudder and slipping issues.) If those were solved, I could probably cope with the other issues. There's just been so many times when I've been outran when I shouldn't have because of the rudder acting like an airbrake. Tested it with a stick, and the plane feels much nicer. Alas, I lack the means of looking around when using a stick, so I don't use one.

Edited by Lahgtah
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Quote

That's a flat, full elevator turn. I can't think of any practical situation where you would want to do that in a Ta-152, especially against a spitfire which could just cut inside you and then match your course. Vertically is where the loss of speed is felt; 

Again, other planes have less energy retention in Maneuvers than you do.

In an outnumbered situation that is very useful as well.

 

 

 

 

Of course you loose speed when doing a vertical turn, but you loose less energy than the competition. If you are talking about high yo-yo's - those are a good way to reverse back onto opponents after gaining 2-3km separation! I think the only plane that keeps up in this department are the P51s at high speed chandelles.

 

Anyway I will stop arguing Physics with you (Spreadsheets > Feelings), but instead point you to this video.  Guy Killing everything allied with the Ta. Talking about Energy Retention... from 4min30s on in the video,the Ta descimates a Mk14 Griffon.

 

 

Edited by JG14_godrin_b
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On 14/05/2019 at 17:01, Rapitor said:

I'd be more assertive. That's mostly how any aircraft is intended to be flown, if you fly it with a stick and not mouse aim.

 

Right.

 

What i meant is that some more so than others. The 190s and 152s being among those aircraft intended to use even less rudder.

 

Meaning you really want to avoid the instructor to use rudder with 190s and 152s.

 

On 14/05/2019 at 19:57, Lahgtah said:

That doesn't always work, especially on aircraft with particularly quick roll rates. You'll be tapping the A or D key, causing your plane to wobble about as the instructor tries to level out the plane, the rudder will be kicking this way and that. I've also never rolled with a mouse in the first place, not intentionally at least.

 

Wobble = doing it wrong. Because wobble = instructor using rudder. You want to set your aircraft at a roll angle that would make un-necessary for the instructor to use the rudder. It's the whole point.

 

If you set the aircraft at the correct roll angle, that's the smoothest fly you can get.

 

Granted the high roll rate of 190s/152s make it difficult. But the 152H doesn't roll as well as 190s. And it makes this less difficult with the 152s (it still is difficult).

Edited by SuperDuperOtter
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