Ouiche

Economy changes (25.04.2019)

US%20Navy_a436391dcc0153d0e69f8f78c928a4

Repair costs in AB, RB and SB have been lowered for the following vehicles:

  • Aircraft:
    • A6M5 otsu
      • RB : From 34020 to 28500
      • SB : From 22000 to 15000
    • G56
      • RB : From 25000 to 24850
      • SB : From 21000 to 17600
  • Fleet:
    • Emden
      • RB : From 13000 to 6090
    • Nurnberg
      • AB : From 3700 to 3190
      • RB : From 13000 to 4090
    • Koln
      • AB : From 3700 to 3730
      • RB : From 13000 to 4790
    • Krasny Kavkaz
      • RB : From 11000 to 5250
    • Krasny Krym
      • RB : From 11000 to 4960

The current provided changelog reflects the major changes within the game as part of this Update. Some updates, additions and fixes may not be listed in the provided notes. War Thunder is constantly improving and specific fixes may be implemented without the client being updated.

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35 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

G56

  • RB : From 25000 to 24850

 

very generouso_o

 

Well, this modification was calculated, we know this one is not really relevant (and a bit silly) but we had to put it here :p:

tenor.gif

 

10 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Great, now please do the same for French tier IV/V/VI :good:

 

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

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11 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

1153377620_circleofoof.png.e3a4d7b2bf697

I think I know why they live so long

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Heavy bombers in RB could also get the same treatment.

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29 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

Yes, but that might be because only more skilled players can afford to play tanks that are this expensive. The high costs keep average players away from France and the remaining players do well in them (if not, continuing to play would be unsustainable), keeping the costs high due to your way of calculating the costs. It's a vicious circle in which bad-average players are kept from playing tier 4+ France. I'm convinced that if the repair costs weren't so astronomically high, French BR 7.3 would be highly popular and France would be a pretty popular tree to play. I believe it's a missed opportunity to keep the repair costs this high and if you lower them, I'd expect more players to come in and the life expectancy of the tanks to drop with that too. I hope you're willing to experiment on this more, because there's a myriad of reasons behind long life expectancies and while for some tanks a high repair costs might be the way to balance their use, for other tanks high repair costs might be upkeeping an unwanted vicious circle of only skilled players being able to play them, therefore their life expectancy being high, therefore the repair costs being high. It differs per tank, so I don't think a universal system that computes repair costs for everything is always a good thing.

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43 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

I get its not that easy to find a solution but if those vehicles weren't the majority of those ranks it wouldn't be that big of a problem... players who struggle with them have no reason to play them because of their cost and it obviously alters their stats. Now that their BRs have gone up I feel they're not as effective as before and I feel they could still be lowered a lot while still staying higher than the average.

If nothing is lowered enough I hope at least other vehicles are on the way to fill those ranks.

Edited by Cedjoe
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33 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

 

...

 

This is a direct consequence of their repair prices, how do you want someone who got a tank that cost 20K to repair to rush and capture point, they can't, they are too scared to lose the tank then pay 20K Sl, then use the second tank with 15K Sl, so these price encourage them to camp and tho, survive longer, does that mean they are better players? No. Does it encourage you to have fun and try tactics with your tank, as it cost 20K to repair? No. It's not complicated, reduce their price and see that people now try stuff instead of camping because they are scare for they wallet, and you will see those survive time go down... I don't get how you don't understand this, even Aerobane posted a graphic in circle showing how your logic is invalid and that it is just basically a vicious circle, gaijin, on this issue you are a snake who try to eat his own tail.

This is almost hopeless, you prefer going the greed way for weird reasons and avoid people enjoying the French rather than experiment stuff we are asking you and see if it works. If you are so scared that French tanks shoot other tanks from other nations and that you don't find it normal (you have zero problem when german tanks clubs, same for russia...) why have you put them in game? For premium users only? I really don't get your logic, but yea keep our price insane high, keep pleasing always the same little favorites who can club without issues, we are not important after all.

Im done, talking to a wall is useless, you ask us for feedback and basically you stay on the same position as before.

 

:017:

 

Ps: Can't wait for the Leclerc with a moderate repair cost of 75K Sl only because reasons...

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Well, you certainly have the right idea considering there are some vehicles with extreme repair costs, but i think maybe a decrease of 150 lions might not exactly have been generous.

As it stands, i am still not going to play any tank that puts me in a ridiculous SL deficit, like the French high tier ones, it is just not a way of balancing that pleases anyone.

Please, just raise the BR instead. 

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Also, the changes for Fleet seem to be good, but for air & ground it's still too conservative. 

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1 hour ago, Ouiche said:

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

It might be related to their internal layout but its probably mostly because of their repair cost. People will play their tanks more carefully because if they die they can expect no credits at the end of the match. I think if you lowered the repair costs for a trial period of 2-3 weeks you could see how the majority of the player base performs in the vehicles instead of only having the better players inflate the stats on them 

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1 hour ago, Aikii said:

Also, the changes for Fleet seem to be good, but for air & ground it's still too conservative. 

 

We've been doing quite a lot to go in the player's direction... it's not satisfying everybody (yep, the french are not happy) but it's going to be easier for a lot of people.

 

2 hours ago, unwinder66 said:

 

...

 

This is a direct consequence of their repair prices, how do you want someone who got a tank that cost 20K to repair to rush and capture point, they can't, they are too scared to lose the tank then pay 20K Sl, then use the second tank with 15K Sl, so these price encourage them to camp and tho, survive longer, does that mean they are better players? No. Does it encourage you to have fun and try tactics with your tank, as it cost 20K to repair? No. It's not complicated, reduce their price and see that people now try stuff instead of camping because they are scare for they wallet, and you will see those survive time go down... I don't get how you don't understand this, even Aerobane posted a graphic in circle showing how your logic is invalid and that it is just basically a vicious circle, gaijin, on this issue you are a snake who try to eat his own tail.

This is almost hopeless, you prefer going the greed way for weird reasons and avoid people enjoying the French rather than experiment stuff we are asking you and see if it works. If you are so scared that French tanks shoot other tanks from other nations and that you don't find it normal (you have zero problem when german tanks clubs, same for russia...) why have you put them in game? For premium users only? I really don't get your logic, but yea keep our price insane high, keep pleasing always the same little favorites who can club without issues, we are not important after all.

Im done, talking to a wall is useless, you ask us for feedback and basically you stay on the same position as before.

 

:017:

 

Ps: Can't wait for the Leclerc with a moderate repair cost of 75K Sl only because reasons...

 

We spent hours discussing / arguing about economy the last few weeks, the vicious circle theory, balance in general, player performance (effects of low / high level players on economy), linup economy compared to vehicle economy (yes, we saw that community made document posted a month ago on that Reddit thread with ~19 upvotes), the team roamed the forum, social media and watched nearly all video made by partners on the economy and balance. We do read, forward and extensively discuss with the developers what our players write and say. (i think they're getting sick of the G.56 :p:)

 

And really, this is not that simple. Some vehicles or group of vehicles are already doing great performance wise, and are sometime used by a surprising amount of players (the G.56 got me, it's as popular as others fighter planes of the same bracket despite the high repair cost, and the amount of players / battles is relatively stable). If we keep lowering the repair price of those "special" vehicles (because their repair price was already manually lowered), there is a fair chance the current users will break the bank and rack insane amount of SL.

 

Now, we're going to keep working on the economy and general player's happiness / game experience as it's getting good results, but we have to be careful to not break the entire system.

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47 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

We spent hours discussing / arguing about economy the last few weeks, the vicious circle theory, balance in general, player performance (effects of low / high level players on economy), linup economy compared to vehicle economy (yes, we saw that community made document posted a month ago on that Reddit thread with ~19 upvotes), the team roamed the forum, social media and watched nearly all video made by partners on the economy and balance. We do read, forward and extensively discuss with the developers what our players write and say. (i think they're getting sick of the G.56 :p:)

 

Add to that the recent youtube video about the French tanks that you made with almost all comments asking you to reduce those prices. The G56 is a powercreep yes, but Italy got other choises, not all of their vehicules are crippled with insane repair cost which is not the case of the French, at tier 4/5/6 ALL our tanks are too pricy, what are we supposed to use then? That's my point.

 

47 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

And really, this is not that simple. Some vehicles or group of vehicles are already doing great performance wise, and are sometime used by a surprising amount of players (the G.56 got me, it's as popular as others fighter planes of the same bracket despite the high repair cost, and the amount of players / battles is relatively stable). If we keep lowering the repair price of those "special" vehicles (because their repair price was already manually lowered), there is a fair chance the current users will break the bank and rack insane amount of SL.

 

Do you really think it is the case of a French lineup with 2/3 vehicules costing each 20K and 15K at the end of the game if you lose those 3 you end up paying 50K, im not shure we can break the bank that way, more breaking our Sl gain to negative peaks.

 

47 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

Now, we're going to keep working on the economy and general player's happiness / game experience as it's getting good results, but we have to be careful to not break the entire system.

 

I understand your fears, that's why i don't ask for a revaluation of 50% but more around 20/30% a short period to see if your theory is valid or not, if it end up that you was right, fine, put them back at the initial price, but at least try, let us see how it goes as it is pretty obvious that right now those lineups are almost unplayable (if you want positive Sl). Same goes for the vautours prices, those planes were op at their arrival, you nerfed their br to 9.0 they were still good, but now with the introduction of 10.0 jets and anti air missiles, they are almost useless (no missles, no flares, less speed...) and still cost more than 20K to repair, it just make 0 sense, i don't think the "they are overperforming" arguments is valid here as in those battle you are basically just some canon fodder.

Try for a short period to get out of this vicious circle see if it fix things, if not well, you would show us that you was right and that those prices were justificated.

 

Ouiche you a great continuation.

 

Ps: I agree with Conte_Baracca, even if i disagree with your decisions, the effort of communication is greatly appreciated, keep it up and let us understand a bit more the big picture.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by unwinder66
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3 hours ago, Ouiche said:

 

Well, this modification was calculated, we know this one is not really relevant (and a bit silly) but we had to put it here :p:

I'll take whatever we can get ;)

3 hours ago, Ouiche said:

 

 

We had a lot of discussions related to the french tanks in 4/5/6. Turn out, they have a noticeably better life expectancy than other nations so... it's a bit complicated.

They are awesome tanks...to be expected.  Hey, does this mean that since the BR changes they STILL haven't lost their edge in performance.

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3 hours ago, Aerobane said:

1153377620_circleofoof.png.e3a4d7b2bf697

I think I know why they live so long

This is a fair point.  How do you account for this in the process?

 

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33 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

 

We've been doing quite a lot to go in the player's direction... it's not satisfying everybody (yep, the french are not happy) but it's going to be easier for a lot of people.

And it is  MUCH appreciated.  Like super appreciated.  Like loved beyond measure of sanity.

 

33 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

 

We spent hours discussing / arguing about economy the last few weeks, the vicious circle theory, balance in general, player performance (effects of low / high level players on economy), linup economy compared to vehicle economy (yes, we saw that community made document posted a month ago on that Reddit thread with ~19 upvotes), the team roamed the forum, social media and watched nearly all video made by partners on the economy and balance. We do read, forward and extensively discuss with the developers what our players write and say. (i think they're getting sick of the G.56 :p:)

 

And really, this is not that simple. Some vehicles or group of vehicles are already doing great performance wise, and are sometime used by a surprising amount of players (the G.56 got me, it's as popular as others fighter planes of the same bracket despite the high repair cost, and the amount of players / battles is relatively stable). If we keep lowering the repair price of those "special" vehicles (because their repair price was already manually lowered), there is a fair chance the current users will break the bank and rack insane amount of SL.

 

Now, we're going to keep working on the economy and general player's happiness / game experience as it's getting good results, but we have to be careful to not break the entire system.

This is an awesome answer in scope and logic.  It's not what we want to hear if we play these vehicles, but it's really hard to argue with.  It's also spectacular to see that the equation answer is often higher than what we see in game because of a vetting, and community feedback process.  Keep up the good work and keep feeding us good answers like this please.

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5 hours ago, Ouiche said:

Repair costs in AB, RB and SB have been lowered for the following vehicles:

 

5 hours ago, Ouiche said:

Koln

  • AB : From 3700 to 3730

:dntknw:

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1 hour ago, Conte_Baracca said:

This is an awesome answer in scope and logic.  It's not what we want to hear if we play these vehicles, but it's really hard to argue with.  It's also spectacular to see that the equation answer is often higher than what we see in game because of a vetting, and community feedback process.  Keep up the good work and keep feeding us good answers like this please.

 

You should hear the french CM, he was mildly amused :016:

1 hour ago, Conte_Baracca said:

This is a fair point.  How do you account for this in the process?

 

 

We can't communicate on those aspects (for the moment, at least).

 

1 hour ago, unwinder66 said:

those planes were op at their arrival, you nerfed their br to 9.0 they were still good, but now with the introduction of 10.0 jets and anti air missiles, they are almost useless (no missles, no flares, less speed...) and still cost more than 20K to repair, it just make 0 sense, i don't think the "they are overperforming" arguments is valid here as in those battle you are basically just some canon fodder.

 

As far as i know, the developers are thinking / working of a way to fluidity the economy and BR, and to improve the system reactivity to game changes. On one side the whole system would be more reactive to game changes, on the other some players dislike changes so it's not straightforward. (That being said, i'm not sure this is the case with this specific plane)

 

Just now, ALIEN109 said:

 

:dntknw:

 

Sabotage!

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13 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

You should hear the french CM, he was mildly amused :016:

 

:D:lol2::wub:

 

Anyway, these are good repair cost changes for the naval part. 

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14 minutes ago, Ouiche said:

As far as i know, the developers are thinking / working of a way to fluidity the economy and BR, and to improve the system reactivity to game changes. On one side the whole system would be more reactive to game changes, on the other some players dislike changes so it's not straightforward. (That being said, i'm not sure this is the case with this specific plane)

 

Let's just hope you will soon come up with a better system, some tier are really not encouraging, i can understand that some of them might be too good but the repair prices hamering is not a great solution.

 

Thks for your answer and your time once again.

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1 hour ago, unwinder66 said:

Add to that the recent youtube video about the French tanks that you made with almost all comments asking you to reduce those prices. The G56 is a powercreep yes, but Italy got other choises, not all of their vehicules are crippled with insane repair cost which is not the case of the French, at tier 4/5/6 ALL our tanks are too pricy, what are we supposed to use then? That's my point. 

 

1 hour ago, unwinder66 said:

understand your fears, that's why i don't ask for a revaluation of 50% but more around 20/30% a short period to see if your theory is valid or not, if it end up that you was right, fine, put them back at the initial price, but at least try, let us see how it goes as it is pretty obvious that right now those lineups are almost unplayable (if you want positive Sl). Same goes for the vautours prices, those planes were op at their arrival, you nerfed their br to 9.0 they were still good, but now with the introduction of 10.0 jets and anti air missiles, they are almost useless (no missles, no flares, less speed...) and still cost more than 20K to repair, it just make 0 sense, i don't think the "they are overperforming" arguments is valid here as in those battle you are basically just some canon fodder.

Try for a short period to get out of this vicious circle see if it fix things, if not well, you would show us that you was right and that those prices were justificated.

@unwinder66 point a fair concern. Why we can't atleast try? If it doesn't work then ok.

 

One question

What about the attractiveness of a nation (economy is a part of the attractiveness of a nation), do you have any data about how much people use a nation?

When i see news players most of time i see people don't advice to use some nation as first nation (and france is one of them). Compared to few year ago we pass from "choose whatever nation you want" to "Don't use this or this nation and here why"

Can you tell us more about it? What kind of solution is in discussion?

 

1 hour ago, Ouiche said:

We spent hours discussing / arguing about economy the last few weeks, the vicious circle theory, balance in general, player performance (effects of low / high level players on economy), linup economy compared to vehicle economy (yes, we saw that community made document posted a month ago on that Reddit thread with ~19 upvotes), the team roamed the forum, social media and watched nearly all video made by partners on the economy and balance. We do read, forward and extensively discuss with the developers what our players write and say. (i think they're getting sick of the G.56 :p:)

From what you say; you and your team look on forum and reddit. So is attractiveness (For the news player and "old" ) of a nation is a part of the discussion with your team and the devs?

 

One last thing. I know it's the not the current subject but are we far from a change about BR?

Are we soon™, soon soon, or very soon?

 

1 hour ago, unwinder66 said:

Ps: I agree with Conte_Baracca, even if i disagree with your decisions, the effort of communication is greatly appreciated, keep it up and let us understand a bit more the big picture.

+1 it's very nice to see this and it's important to note it.

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2 hours ago, Ouiche said:

 

We've been doing quite a lot to go in the player's direction... it's not satisfying everybody (yep, the french are not happy) but it's going to be easier for a lot of people.

 

 

We spent hours discussing / arguing about economy the last few weeks, the vicious circle theory, balance in general, player performance (effects of low / high level players on economy), linup economy compared to vehicle economy (yes, we saw that community made document posted a month ago on that Reddit thread with ~19 upvotes), the team roamed the forum, social media and watched nearly all video made by partners on the economy and balance. We do read, forward and extensively discuss with the developers what our players write and say. (i think they're getting sick of the G.56 :p:)

 

And really, this is not that simple. Some vehicles or group of vehicles are already doing great performance wise, and are sometime used by a surprising amount of players (the G.56 got me, it's as popular as others fighter planes of the same bracket despite the high repair cost, and the amount of players / battles is relatively stable). If we keep lowering the repair price of those "special" vehicles (because their repair price was already manually lowered), there is a fair chance the current users will break the bank and rack insane amount of SL.

 

Now, we're going to keep working on the economy and general player's happiness / game experience as it's getting good results, but we have to be careful to not break the entire system.

 

 

You wanna know why the G56 is popular?

It is the only fighter at BR 5.7

Its just sad that you force people to pay that price to be competitive at that BR. I got that machine and i will never ever play one game it. Just spading that thing with bad stock performance would cost me a fortune. And the really sad thing is, there is no alternative at that BR. NONE, ZERO

If its overperforming than put it at 6.0 and lower the repair cost, so that other people which didnt spade it or arent godlike pilots can enjoy flying that Aircraft. This is really really Sad

 

Sorry its just my Opinion

 

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Thanks for reasurrance Ouchie!

Can you community guys keep us more informed about development? 

Id really like to know what devs work on now and if some things are being adressed. 

Also theres a whole big Reddit sub that went pure berserk because of no community manager that could put fires out like you Ouchie did here.

 

Sometimes all you need is one sentence confirming devs work on fixes to make community happy.

 

Please do walk that extra mile

Edited by mdrpl7
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