WolFie90

Tanks shooting helicopters with main gun

53 minutes ago, WolFie90 said:

I know, that it may seem cool on replay for a time or two...
But seriously ...
Realistic ?

its very realistic the aiming system on many mbts have even a mode to shoot at helicopters demonstraded by the chieftain

Spoiler

 

so yes tanks can shoot down helicopters in irl the were even designed to do it

 

Edited by lolman03
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8 minutes ago, Hardmoor said:

why shouldn't they shoot it if they have a shot? Especially since it's rather easy with high velocity shells and laser rangefinder

I think he's not questioning the ethics of shooting at helicopters, but rather the dubious mouse aim that allows players to snipe them so easily and quickly. Personally I dislike it because it punishes helicopters for playing properly with pop up attacks and low flying, while encouraging orbital strike space climbing tactics. Not really anything that can be done though.

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7 minutes ago, Aerobane said:

I think he's not questioning the ethics of shooting at helicopters, but rather the dubious mouse aim that allows players to snipe them so easily and quickly. Personally I dislike it because it punishes helicopters for playing properly with pop up attacks and low flying, while encouraging orbital strike space climbing tactics. Not really anything that can be done though.

isnt he actually just talking about if it is realiscistic that a tank can shot down a heli?

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13 minutes ago, lolman03 said:

isnt he actually just talking about if it is realiscistic that a tank can shot down a heli?

Yes, its unrealistic that players have mouse aim which helps them aim and makes shooting a moving helicopter extremely easy.

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1 hour ago, Aerobane said:

I think he's not questioning the ethics of shooting at helicopters, but rather the dubious mouse aim that allows players to snipe them so easily and quickly. Personally I dislike it because it punishes helicopters for playing properly with pop up attacks and low flying, while encouraging orbital strike space climbing tactics. Not really anything that can be done though.

i actually never experienced that as a problem flying my Alouette and AH-1G, pop-up attacks even work against the Tunguska for me.

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2 hours ago, WolFie90 said:

I know, that it may seem cool on replay for a time or two...
But seriously ...
Realistic ?

 

and it is realistic to have helicopters shooting at Maus/Tigers/T 34 or many other WWII tanks ...

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1 hour ago, belgord said:

Then how should we aim? Without a mouse? 

Mouse joy. As is, you don't aim the gun: you click on tanks to shoot them, with the cursor being the round aiming circle. A more realistic solution would be mouse joystick, where you move the mouse to the right, the gun starts slewing to the right. Move it left a bit the gun stops traversing. No cursor at all, just the gunsight. Essentially using the mouse to simulate the joystick or crank of the tank that is used to aim the gun.

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2 hours ago, Aerobane said:

Yes, its unrealistic that players have mouse aim which helps them aim and makes shooting a moving helicopter extremely easy.

well if youre going to complain that mouse aim isnt realistic why wont we add targeting computers to tanks that have them otherwise that wouldnt be realistic and a targeting computer can more easily destroy a heli than somebody in mouse aim as displayed by the chieftain in a m1 what has a mode for the computer designed for taking down helicopters

Spoiler

 

 

32 minutes ago, Aerobane said:

Mouse joy. As is, you don't aim the gun: you click on tanks to shoot them, with the cursor being the round aiming circle. A more realistic solution would be mouse joystick, where you move the mouse to the right, the gun starts slewing to the right. Move it left a bit the gun stops traversing. No cursor at all, just the gunsight. Essentially using the mouse to simulate the joystick or crank of the tank that is used to aim the gun.

 

and how are you going to control about 70% of the tanks in game most of them only had a joystick control for the power travese what was only used for laying the gun ruffly on target and worked only in the horizontal acces and used a normal hand crank for the finer movements and how are we going to turn and elivate at the same time i cant use my mouse as a joystick and a crank at the same time or you gotta leave the elevation to a button but thats inacurrate like how you said earlier so this only works for about 30% of all tanks in game and for the rest you gotta use 2 mouses to use them to their most affect

Edited by lolman03
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Just now, lolman03 said:

well if youre going to complain that mouse aim isnt realistic why wont we add targeting computers to tanks that have them otherwise that wouldnt be realistic and a targeting computer can more easily destroy a heli than somebody in mouse aim displayed by the chieftain in a m1 what has a mode for the computer designed for taking down helicopters

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and how are you going to control about 70% of the tanks in game most of them only had a joystick control for the power travese what was only used for laying the gun ruffly on target and worked only in the horizontal acces and used a normal hand crank for the finer movements and how are we going to turn and elivate at the same time i cant use my mouse as a joystick and a crank at the same time or you gotta leave the elevation to a button but thats inacurrate like how you said earlier so this only works for about 30% of all tanks in game and for the rest you gotta use 2 mouses to use them to their most affect 

Lmao he's literally using mouse joy in the video you linked xD

Steel beasts is used to train tank crews (well, not the version you can buy as a civilian but the same basic controls scheme is present in both afaik) and it has mouse joy that works great for aiming in all directions as evidenced by not only your video (oops?) but also more clearly in this video: You can see the "cursor" that shows what direction the turret is being traversed in, but as you can see the gun does not simply move to the cursor and rest there, it moves in the direction of the cursor until the user brings the cursor back into the middle of the screen:

There's a detailed thread in the sim subsection about using mouse joy or even keyboard controls to more accurately resemble real aiming systems. For vertical traverse, you can move the mouse up and traverse the gun up too, just like left/right or all other movements. Mouse joy would still be more realistic than point and click, even if it isn't a perfect simulation of hand cranking. Move mouse in direction, gun moves that direction. Move mouse slightly in that direction, gun moves slowly in that direction. It would allow even more precise aim adjustment than is currently possible in war thunder. Honestly in RB I don't even care, I was just pointing out how the current system is unrealistic and someone asked for an alternative so I gave it. For sim however, mouse joy for tank aiming is really needed, not so much to prevent people shooting helis but mainly to limit the unrealistic knifefights. As for fire control systems, if you want to simulate modern fire control you could use things like automatic range adjustment based on the rangefinder or a basic ballistic computer rather than point and click aiming mode, which much farther from a modern fire control system than a mouse joy aiming mechanic.

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1 hour ago, Aerobane said:

Lmao he's literally using mouse joy in the video you linked xD

yeay if you had read what i said for the reason to show the video you should have known that it was about the targeting computer and if we are going to ad joystick controls  why wouldnt we add a targeting computer as that would also be unrealistic if that wasnt here and the part was used for showcasing how a tank could shoot down a heli quite easly with a targeting computer and joy aim  and the original purpose was showing that helis being shotdown by the main arnament of mbt's wasnt unrealistic as the op asked if it was unrealistic

and i knew stealbeast uses joystick aim as its a military tank simulator

 

1 hour ago, Aerobane said:

mouse joy that works great for aiming in all directions as evidenced by not only your video (oops?)

yeay but how are you going to emplement this into all those ww2 era and earlier tanks what make up (ruff estimation) 70% of all vehicles in game those tanks only used a joystick for the power travese and those could only move in the horizontal as almost every power traverse only worked on the horizontal plane so elevation would be done with only  a hand crank and these power traverseses were only used for laying the gun rufly on target and a normal hand crank would be used for finer adjustments so how are you going to implement this as these tanks only have a joystick what works in the horizontal plain and this will also make it impossible to aim in the horizontal and virtical at the same time as a mouse can only simulate one of the motions at a time making aiming in a aa almost impossible as you can not aim in the in both plains making targeting planes very hard and unrealistic and only realistic way to fix this is to use 2 mouses to simulate both plaines

 

1 hour ago, Aerobane said:

There's a detailed thread in the sim subsection about using mouse joy or even keyboard controls to more accurately resemble real aiming systems. For vertical traverse, you can move the mouse up and traverse the gun up too, just like left/right or all other movements. Mouse joy would still be more realistic than point and click, even if it isn't a perfect simulation of hand cranking. Move mouse in

well it still doesnt make the tank very close to how it operated (pz iv for example) in real life but if this would be emplamented into rb alot of the drop in and drop out players would go away as would take longer to learn for them to aim good again compared to the system we have now

 

1 hour ago, Aerobane said:

Honestly in RB I don't even care, I was just pointing out how the current system is unrealistic

well i thought we were talking about rb as this was posted in the ground rb section and if somebody thinks the aiming in warthunder is a realistic repesentation of how it was done in irl they should get their brain checked

 

1 hour ago, Aerobane said:

For sim however, mouse joy for tank aiming is really needed, not so much to prevent people shooting helis but mainly to limit the unrealistic knifefights

yeay i like this idea for sim mode it would be a perfect fit for it and maybe for older 1 plain tanks what also didnt have the most aqqurate aiming in power travese you would need to press a button on youre keyboard to change to a hand crank system where you will be more precise in aiming at the cost of speed but i am not sure if we should add that you would aslo turn you mouse like a wheel to simulate the turning i would be fine with the joy aiming but a slowed down version to diffrenciate between powered and non powered

Edited by lolman03
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13 hours ago, Aerobane said:

Yes, its unrealistic that players have mouse aim which helps them aim and makes shooting a moving helicopter extremely easy.

I do it with my DualShock controller. It can be done, and is a viable way to take down a helo. If it’s just going to sit there without making any adjustments to avoid such engagements, it’s going to be taken down. Nothing unrealistic about it. It’s not extremely easy either. But a good tanker can hit an enemy tank at speed, and at range, it’s not much more to do it to a helo. 

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I'm sorry but... Are you actually complaining that people are sick of your **** for sitting there at the same bloody distance so all they need to do is guestimate approx~ 4km (shy of the longest recorded tank on tank kill of 4.7km) and only adjust up and down because all you Heli spammers do is sit at your spawn distance.

I'm sorry the rest of the playerbase can actually use their brain.

Sorry for the language, but I have no sympathy for anyone playing helicopters in Tank RB. At least air CAS requires SOME skill.

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51 minutes ago, *FireWarrior2013 said:

 At least air CAS requires SOME skill.

 

The skill difference between keeping your cursor pointed at a target while the missile goes there or being the missile is negligable imo.

 

As to the OP, yes. Helis and planes have to balance their altitude in that high altitude leaves them safe from ground fire, but more vulnerable to air and SAMs, whilst low altitude leaves them in danger of lithobraking and ground fire. Hell, the Israelis have apparently mounted active protection measures on their AH-64s to protect them from RPGs shot up at them. There's even specific helicopter tactics to defend against and find things like tanks firing at them from conceiled positions.

 

It's a thing. A thing you have mobility, altitude or conceilment to defend against.

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2 hours ago, *FireWarrior2013 said:

I'm sorry but... Are you actually complaining that people are sick of your **** for sitting there at the same bloody distance so all they need to do is guestimate approx~ 4km (shy of the longest recorded tank on tank kill of 4.7km) and only adjust up and down because all you Heli spammers do is sit at your spawn distance.

I'm sorry the rest of the playerbase can actually use their brain.

Sorry for the language, but I have no sympathy for anyone playing helicopters in Tank RB. At least air CAS requires SOME skill.



Ummm ... I am sorry, that i've unlocked only UH with br 9.0 ańd have zero idea, what you're talking about.
Last time, i spawned UH, i didn't even have time to drop 100 meters, when i got taken out at heli spawn with SAM.

No, what I am talking about, is 8.0 , AH-1G and getting shot, flying treetop level, by some leopard, that kills me with first shot. They don't even bother to open up with mg, they simply shoot one time with main gun.
If that is realistic, then i'm wondering, how did the helis get so popular in variety of nations armies... :dntknw:

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1 hour ago, milki30 said:

 

It's a thing. A thing you have mobility, altitude or conceilment to defend against.


At the current state, there is no possible way for 9.0 heli traphole for GF RB player.
1. heli is heard from 1 map end to other, realistic(maybe) if you are sitting in a quiet place, outside, but in a moving tank?
2. To call UH mobile (especially, when it's stock) , is rather far fetch, don't you agree ?
3. maps do not support helis with cover. Trees are no help against some otomatic, because it literally can shoot you though a darn forest!

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Along with the above mentioned tanks, the Merkava Mk4's fire control allows the crew to engage combat helicopters with the main cannon.

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2 hours ago, Cairn_67 said:

Along with the above mentioned tanks, the Merkava Mk4's fire control allows the crew to engage combat helicopters with the main cannon.



Cool. I actually were 11 years in actual service. I never heard a story of a tank shooting down helicopter.
Ofcourse there was no special topic about it, but...

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Ever heard of the M830A1 HEAT-MP? It has a proxy fuse designed to take out helos and the M1 Abrams specifically can lase helicopters and engage them with this round with the ballistic computer. 

 

 

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On 23/04/2019 at 15:43, WolFie90 said:

I know, that it may seem cool on replay for a time or two...
But seriously ...
Realistic ?

UH YEAH it is a valid combat thing IRL

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Back in the old, old, days (1980's) we practiced shooting at Mi-24 sized targets at ranges in Hohenfels, FRG using both the main gun and M85 .50 cal on M60A3's. My gunner thought it was great fun, I was pretty skeptical about the whole idea (but then the TC's M85 was complete junk, and I used to spend more time clearing stoppages than shooting). Really, our concept of anti-helicopter defense back then was: (a) hide, (b) pray that an M163 was in the area, or (c) shoot in desperation only when forced to. But,  yes tanks can and do train to shoot helicopters with the main gun.

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