AdelWolf

JU 288C - Be-6

Thanks for thoughtful replies:

 

1 hour ago, *Nobody__0wens said:

Not enforced 1st person view.

Apply to which units?

 

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I wasn't making the BR case here... merely that a 1950s boat and a prototype that "never flew" irritates some players and they will leave EC4 for lack of "realism"... singularly not a game breaker... but does contribute for some. With something like the JU288, you can't even say its overpowered based on historical evidence. So is it fantasy or "real"? I don't know. All I know is there are more in one EC match than were ever produced (and none ever flew combat bombing missions)... If I was Germany, I'd have built a LOT of them.

288 did fly, they built about 2 dozen, and there is unconfirmed reports of a some active missions.

Yes, the performance is suspect and I am welcome an audit.  I think the Tu-2S-44 or -59 could be the closest analogue

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True. And if the Yer-2 were dirt cheap and a 5.0 BR it would be spammed. Yer2 even after economy changes is still twice as expensive as BE6 and has timer.

And that is a good example of how imbalances migrate.  

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Agree... but again, Air Start is an advantage.

Hows about moving the air spawn 3 AF back?  

With the small AF the spawn point was far back, so the air-start advantage was minimized.

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I have some fear of low flying good gunshipping BE-6s. Agree with you on 288 speed, and they do turn to run quickly.

Spawn delay would be automatic with a 5.3 BR, would prefer 5.7. But I think you are right in looking for some kind of band aid to this problem.

 

One thing I hear often is Zombie aircraft, the Be-6 is an absolutely perfect example of instant re-spawn can infuriate the players.

But Be-6 and Ju288 are not only Zombie aircraft.

 

 

vvvv   this is best way to get GJ to see our issue   vvv  

With 300,000 + active players, feedback needs is carefully managed.

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Thanks for thoughtful replies:

Civil discussion... always! Appreciate the discussion, even when we disagree.

37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Apply to which units?

All turreted aircraft can be flown in 3rd person perspective in gunner mode... for single turret craft, there is an optional setting for 1st or 3rd person view.

37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

288 did fly, they built about 2 dozen, and there is unconfirmed reports of a some active missions.

Yes, the performance is suspect and I am welcome an audit.  I think the Tu-2S-44 or -59 could be the closest analogue

Yes, reports say 288s flew some reconnaissance missions. Bombing missions... I haven't found evidence or references. And the Tu-2s-44 has a BR of 6.0. -59 is 6.7BR

37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

And that is a good example of how imbalances migrate.  

Hows about moving the air spawn 3 AF back?  

With the small AF the spawn point was far back, so the air-start advantage was minimized.

That could help... or there is a suggestion for exit point at back of map edge, which could help?

37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

One thing I hear often is Zombie aircraft, the Be-6 is an absolutely perfect example of instant re-spawn can infuriate the players.

But Be-6 and Ju288 are not only Zombie aircraft.

 

 

vvvv   this is best way to get GJ to see our issue   vvv  

With 300,000 + active players, feedback needs is carefully managed.

I voted +1 on your suggestion when I finally saw it... I had hoped for a simple BR increase in the last adjustments and made that suggestion when Gaiijin had the BR thread active.

37 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, *Nobody__0wens said:

Civil discussion... always! Appreciate the discussion, even when we disagree.

:salute:

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All turreted aircraft can be flown in 3rd person perspective in gunner mode... for single turret craft, there is an optional setting for 1st or 3rd person view.

Was not aware!  I thought locked. Set in Options menu?

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Yes, reports say 288s flew some reconnaissance missions. Bombing missions... I haven't found evidence or references.

" In 1944, following the cancellation of the 288 programme, the surviving A and C series prototypes were hurriedly fitted with defensive armament and equipment and deployed as reconnaissance bombers on the Western Front."

Carried bombs with cameras.  

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And the Tu-2s-44 has a BR of 6.0. -59 is 6.7BR

-59 is an aberration.  It is like Wellington or A6M when its BR was 2.0 to 4.3 or like that.  (SM79 is 1.7 to 3.3)

-59 at best is 6.3, and even then is only a very slight improvement to -44.

For sure as is, the 288 is well below its BR.

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That could help... or there is a suggestion for exit point at back of map edge, which could help?

Both ways is good. Map edge in/out exist in game.

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I voted +1 on your suggestion when I finally saw it... I had hoped for a simple BR increase in the last adjustments and made that suggestion when Gaiijin had the BR thread active.

Be-6 is fairly easy to shoot down, and does log if player lost his Be-6 due to shot down by player, AAA, or exits game (easy metric to record).  If they see a very high kill rate, then increasing BR is out.

But spawn timers, SP and SL increases, much easier to argument.  They already increased the SL by 500, too little, but they are watching.

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Yay, so much fun, just joined to SB EC IV battle against Russians and guess what were they flying

 

shot_2019.05.02_14.53.43.jpg

 

and after that battle I joined to EC IV against USA, guess what airplane were my team flying

XbWtNN6.jpg

 

Thanks so much Gaijin for ruining EC IV

Edited by RideR2
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It's just a symptom of the disastrous SL economy, even with premium time and premium vehicles people are starved for SL, Bombing bases in sim with premium bombers is just one of the last remaining ways to reliably earn SL. Even with premium time I basically don't earn any SL in high tier ground RB, Naval or playing fighters in sim. The aggressive campaign to starve players of SL the last couple of years is causing gameplay trouble in other modes as well as sim, people don't want to cap risky points in ground RB and often prefer to lose the match rather than risk expensive repairs.

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6 hours ago, lizardmech said:

It's just a symptom of the disastrous SL economy, even with premium time and premium vehicles people are starved for SL, Bombing bases in sim with premium bombers is just one of the last remaining ways to reliably earn SL. Even with premium time I basically don't earn any SL in high tier ground RB, Naval or playing fighters in sim. The aggressive campaign to starve players of SL the last couple of years is causing gameplay trouble in other modes as well as sim, people don't want to cap risky points in ground RB and often prefer to lose the match rather than risk expensive repairs.

That's a very accurate detection that all players suffer. I honestly don't think that they are enjoying the game the way they bomb till death. They do this due to necessity where they are forced by GJ. 

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20 hours ago, lizardmech said:

It's just a symptom of the disastrous SL economy, even with premium time and premium vehicles people are starved for SL,

Nah, all of them are AB and RB players that just want to get jets are soon as it's possible.

To be honest SL economy is not that bad when you play fighters in SB EC, you just need to survive and return to the airfield in one piece, I'm always getting at least 50-100k SL per battle, even when I play airplanes that have very high repair/respawn cost.

Next time just check in game profile of those people, you will see that they are flying only bombers in SB and that they mostly (or rather only) play in AB or RB.

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10 minutes ago, RideR2 said:

To be honest SL economy is not that bad when you play fighters in SB EC, you just need to survive and return to the airfield in one piece,

and if everyone survived their sortie who would you, as a fighter, kill?  Bots?


For you to have 2:0, 3:0 K/D, 2-3 other guys have to have 0:1 right? We can't all have 5 kills and survive unless some other group (CAS, Bombers, bots) get whacked.
In other modes it's somehow OK to progress if you don't even get as high as 1:3 K/D and in SB you need 2:1/3:1 to not struggle (not to mention do good)

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7 hours ago, RideR2 said:

To be honest SL economy is not that bad when you play fighters in SB EC

The SL rewards for fighters carry a cost for someone else in the match; namely the person you shot down. If we simplify the situation to no-bots-player-kills-only then it's simple to see how much total SL is generated for players by just taking: reward-for-killing*kills - cost-for-repair*deaths. (kills equals deaths if you take out environmental deaths)

 

Bombers on the other hand create SL rewards out "thin air" with out direct cost to other players. This is part of the reason why it's simple to setup farming matches with bombers and other means of ground attack. It doesn't cost to be on the losing side in such situation. It is economically viable to have dummy accounts to start matches with weird 6-nations-v-1-nation configurations, and the more farm players you can get to join the 6-nations side the faster you finish the matches and the higher your rewards/hour will be as a result.

 

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It wouldn't be such an issue if the rewards weren't so completely skewed towards bombing. I have the premium do-335. with premium time it has a massive 260% income, my ju288 gets 720%, base bombing itself is far more profitable than anything I could do with the do-335. By the time you factor in both differences the ju288 would earn 10 or more times as much SL per game. I don't understand why anyone would give bombers an overwhelming SL earning ability when they know they cause a balance issue, what is even more insane is they lose money by not selling premium fighters, why would I buy them now that they earn less than some non-premium planes? It's madness.

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In Japan... the hand can be used like a knife. But this method doesn't work on a tomato!

 

That's why we use JU288 "Ginsu" bomber.

Its a plane that no player should be without.

The Ginsu can hit a base so fast you almost can't see it.

It flies faster than some jet bombers.

And goes through aaa as though they were melted butter.

The Ginsu is so fast most fighter planes can't catch it.

And still snipe them from 1.5K

It can turn for home, and still remain uncatchable.

What's more, it's a premium earner with apparently no spawn lock.

 

How much would you pay for a plane like this?

 

Before you answer, listen.

It even comes with a 20mm turret to make gun shipping a pleasure.

 

Wait... there's much much more!

 

We also want you to have this needlessly added air spawn to make make it less sim like.

No need to learn to take off, or even learn to really fly the plane, just point and click.

This bonus lets you jump right in, head for the target, and press the space bar!

 

How much would you pay for ALL these items?!

 

Well, we will even give you an enormous earnings multiplier, beyond any German plane at its BR

And to make the offer completely irresistible you'll be getting a prototype that no one can Nerf based on historical evidence.

It can spiral down and down, around and around, and still bag enough enemies to feast on RP and SL enough to grind jets!

 

NOW how much would you pay?!?!

 

You get the super fast prototype Bomber

The big bomb load

The killer mouse click turret defense

The Air Spawn

The Low BR

The Big Multiplier

 

You get them ALL, Guaranteed in writing for 50 years, for only 4880 GL.

Its the most incredible plane offer EVER!

Here's how to order...

 

XXXX XXX XXX XXXX XXXXXXXX XXX XXXXXXXXX XXX (omitted info for commercial reasons)

 

Don't  accept imitations!

ORDER NOW!!!

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The JU-288 does in fact cost spawn points to take out. And it also has a 5 minute spawn lock.

20190506_124221.thumb.jpg.71d67a1b3dcc9d

 

And for the record , bombing in RB is just as boring as in sim. The only difference is you actually have a chance at doing anything in sim. In RB you're lucky if you bomb one base without getting shot down.

 

Blame Gaijin for making bombers (and some attackers) completely pointless in RB. RB is literally just a team deathmatch , none of the objectives actually matter. If RB had an EC gamemode I doubt this would be a problem.

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2 hours ago, *lllmaxlvllll said:

 

 

And for the record , bombing in RB is just as boring as in sim. The only difference is you actually have a chance at doing anything in sim. In RB you're lucky if you bomb one base without getting shot down.

 

Blame Gaijin for making bombers (and some attackers) completely pointless in RB. RB is literally just a team deathmatch , none of the objectives actually matter. If RB had an EC gamemode I doubt this would be a problem.

You could be right... RB is 99% death match.

 

But... SIM is "the place" for RP earnings, so is very useful for grinding tech trees.  And markers + fighter mouse aim are a big part of what renders Bombers useless in RB. 

 

As it stands EC4 is pretty hosed by a handful of bombers. Right now EC1-3 you can still find balanced matches. I don't play much EC5 and haven't ground out the EC6 line-up. Not sure I'll ever get there.

 

Peace.

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2 hours ago, *Nobody__0wens said:

fighter mouse aim

This is bit of misunderstanding perhaps. You could have the control scheme they have right now with out the incredible long-range accuracy. Right now the instructor or some other mechanism is seemingly canceling out any or most recoil from firing the guns, preventing any kind of drift in the aim point, so you can easily saturate single area with machine gun fire and score long-range hits. Which is often enough due to silly physics-breaking ballistics properties of said machine guns. Even 1 deg of rotation of the aircraft due to recoil would already shift the aim point by ~17 m at 1000 m. If you observe the amount of rotation by recoil in simulator you can see it's more than 1 deg on many planes.

 

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5 hours ago, *lllmaxlvllll said:

RB is literally just a team deathmatch

Which is great! Fighter-v-fighter game play actually has high-enough skill cap that can't be reached after 20 minutes of playing.

 

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14 minutes ago, _IFF said:

This is bit of misunderstanding perhaps. You could have the control scheme they have right now with out the incredible long-range accuracy. Right now the instructor or some other mechanism is seemingly canceling out any or most recoil from firing the guns, preventing any kind of drift in the aim point, so you can easily saturate single area with machine gun fire and score long-range hits. Which is often enough due to silly physics-breaking ballistics properties of said machine guns. Even 1 deg of rotation of the aircraft due to recoil would already shift the aim point by ~17 m at 1000 m. If you observe the amount of rotation by recoil in simulator you can see it's more than 1 deg on many planes.

 

My understanding, as it is told by RB mouse pilots, is mouse flying (aka mouse aim as opposed to mouse joy) doesn't work without the instructor.  At any rate a precision mouse with whatever voodoo they use is uber accurate... and means in RB fighters can accurately fire at bombers from long range.  In SIM without instructor or recoil dampening, bombers are harder to kill... at least by what I've seen.

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Had crazy 288 spam in a tier 4 match today, with a squadron of five going back and forth in an aerial conga line. I shot up one bomber, got shot up myself, saw the bomber falling out of the sky, limped home with half a wing missing, and . . . never got kill credit, never even saw the bomber's death message come up. Shot up another, dove away to avoid its guns, watched it fly on smoking, deliver its bombs, and fly away, spurting long distance tracers to keep me from attacking it again, some of which hit me. Saw another that had been extensively shot up, trailing thick black smoke, cross the whole map and enter final approach to its airbase. Came in hot from high to try to avoid its guns, got hits but not good enough to kill it, and found myself settling into the death zone at its six, while its guns and its airbase lit me up.

 

I rammed it.

 

At that point I was done. Trying to bring down a 288 is a thankless task that ends your sortie due to damage or death more often than not. You can usually only get off one pass before the "pilot" wakes up and points his cursor at you. I didn't sign up for sim battles to be routinely mouse-clicked by Call of Duty castoffs while they try to up their score in Aerial Truck Simulator. 

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Oh every bomber is OP when it comes to gunners.. IRL they were easy prey if alone against fighter and thus had to use formations and escorts to have a chance to return. Of course we can't take all chances away from bombers but some balance would be nice and bombers should not rule the skies. Gunners are the issue with their stabilized 3rd person mouse aim from RB. Guncam footage after all looks very different from this.

 

 

And btw I plan to edit one exclusively against Ju-288.

Edited by *jage304
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9 hours ago, IdahoBookworm said:

 

 

I rammed it.

 

At that point I was done. Trying to bring down a 288 is a thankless task that ends your sortie due to damage or death more often than not. You can usually only get off one pass before the "pilot" wakes up and points his cursor at you. I didn't sign up for sim battles to be routinely mouse-clicked by Call of Duty castoffs while they try to up their score in Aerial Truck Simulator. 

 

Whats the rules regarding ramming? Is it still frowned upon after the Sky Police saga?

 

Personally I will ram if its the only way to stop one of these ABusers.

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1 minute ago, Anunzi said:

 

Whats the rules regarding ramming? Is it still frowned upon after the Sky Police saga?

 

Personally I will ram if its the only way to stop one of these ABusers.

 

There is nothing wrong in ramming the enemy. Ramming your own teammates is probably against the rules the same way as shooting them. (There is not an automatic punishmend system for ramming teammates though).

 

If you need inspiration for your kamikaze flights against enemy bombers....well here is some material:

Spoiler

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Anunzi said:

 

Whats the rules regarding ramming? Is it still frowned upon after the Sky Police saga?

 

Personally I will ram if its the only way to stop one of these ABusers.

I don't usually ram — I liked to protect my life — but at that point I figured, here I am in a sim, and these guys are playing a CoD-style game, so . . . I'll play a game, too.

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15 hours ago, IdahoBookworm said:

I don't usually ram — I liked to protect my life — but at that point I figured, here I am in a sim, and these guys are playing a CoD-style game, so . . . I'll play a game, too.

 

Pretty much my exact thoughts. I'd never deliberately ram another sim pilot. But mouse aimers are not pilots, they are just in our mode farming in their point and click adventure game.

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17 hours ago, esapekkis said:

 

There is nothing wrong in ramming the enemy. Ramming your own teammates is probably against the rules the same way as shooting them. (There is not an automatic punishmend system for ramming teammates though).

 

If you need inspiration for your kamikaze flights against enemy bombers....well here is some material:

  Hide contents

 

 

Every time i see this video it cheers me up!

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