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Hello everybody.

 

 

I'm opening this thread to talk about the  AMX-32.

 

Why especially the AMX-32 ?

 

Well it's simple, I'm very concerned about the fact that Gaijin does not seem to own reliable sources about this vehicle as lately displayed in the 1.89 rumor round up thread where @gromvoiny said that according to their sources, the AMX 32 was not equiped with any devices that allowed the vehicle to accurately fire on the move which is suprising considering a well written and documented suggestion got passed not so long ago, clearly stating that the AMX 32 indeed come equipped with a fire on the move capability.

 

So i'm wondering what sources Gaijin owns up to this day about the vehicle and i would greatly appreciate if @Smin1080p @gromvoiny and @Ouiche could take part to this discussion. If developpers are looking for information regarding this vehicle, they should take a closer look to the following suggestion.

If there are technical aspects that are hard to understand for the developpers to accurately model the vehicle in the game, they can feel free to come and ask for clarifications, in the meantime this thread will also serve to "educate" the community about this rather overlooked and forgotten vehicle compared to the AMX 40 despite the latter featuring most of the improvements that were first tested on the AMX 32 especially it's improved FCS that allowed the vehicle to fire on the move.

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We currently dont have any sources that confirm the tank had full gun stabilization like the AMX-40 and many others for example. If anyone does indeed have them, it would be of great help. 

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20 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

We currently dont have any sources that confirm the tank had full gun stabilization like the AMX-40 and many others for example. If anyone does indeed have them, it would be of great help. 

WsEcmwL.jpg

 

Second paragraph of the page 44 : Source used in the AMX 40 suggestion thread.

 

"La conduite de tir et l'optronique sont reprises en grandes parties de l'AMX 32. La réelle nouveauté en matière de détection des cibles provient de l'intégration d'une caméra thermique CASTOR en lieu et place de la caméra TV DI VT 13 à intensification de lumière"

 

Translation :

 

" The firing control system and optronic devices are extrapolated from the AMX-32. the real novelty about target detection comes from the integration of a CASTOR thermal camera in place of the TV DI VT 13 LLTV device"

 

 

322.jpg

 

Caractéristiques générales de l'AMX 32

 

Viseur chef : Lunette panoramique M527 à deux grossissements permettant le tir en mouvement.

 

Viseur tireur : lunette de masque M581 (the same used on the AMX 40)

 

Conduite de tir : COTAC permettant le tir en mouvement.

 

Translation :

 

General caracteristics of the AMX 32.

 

Tank commander sight : Panoramic sight M527 with two level of magnification allowing a fire on the move capability

 

Tank gunner sight : monocular M581 sight

 

Fire control system : COTAC allowing a fire on the move capability.

 

 

What can be a bit hard to get and i understand that, is that both the AMX 32 and AMX 40 shared the same FCS. The M527 gyrostabilized panoramic commander sight got integrated to the COTAC FCS, the gun was not stabilized by a gyro stabilizer indeed, but was driven by a device that computed angular datas into the COTAC ballistic computer which then drove the servos of the gun to keep it steady with the M527 LoS/LoF.

 

 

 

Edited by Tantor57
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13 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

WsEcmwL.jpg

 

Second paragraph of the page 44 : Source used in the AMX 40 suggestion thread.

 

"La conduite de tir et l'optronique sont reprises en grandes parties de l'AMX 32. La réelle nouveauté en matière de détection des cibles provient de l'intégration d'une caméra thermique CASTOR en lieu et place de la caméra TV DI VT 13 à intensification de lumière"

 

Translation :

 

" The firing control system and optronic devices are extrapolated from the AMX-32. the real novelty about target detection comes from the integration of a CASTOR thermal camera in place of the TV DI VT 13 LLTV device"

 

 

322.jpg

 

Caractéristiques générales de l'AMX 32

 

Viseur chef : Lunette panoramique M527 à deux grossissements permettant le tir en mouvement.

 

Viseur tireur : lunette de masque M581 (the same used on the AMX 40)

 

Conduite de tir : COTAC permettant le tir en mouvement.

 

Translation :

 

General caracteristics of the AMX 32.

 

Tank commander sight : Panoramic sight M527 with two level of magnification allowing a fire on the move capability

 

Tank gunner sight : monocular M581 sight

 

Fire control system : COTAC allowing a fire on the move capability.

 

 

What can be a bit hard to get and i understand that, is that both the AMX 32 and AMX 40 shared the same FCS. The M527 gyrostabilized panoramic commander sight got integrated to the COTAC FCS, the gun was not stabilized by a gyro stabilizer indeed, but was driven by a device that computed angular datas into the COTAC ballistic computer which then drove the servos of the gun to keep it steady with the M527 LoS/LoF.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, that helps clarify things. Any extra sources that do get posted, please do send them my way. 

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21 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Thanks, that helps clarify things. Any extra sources that do get posted, please do send them my way. 

I should soon receive the official GIAT brochure of the AMX 32.

 

I know  things are indeed confusing about the AMX 32, but you really need to cross sources about the AMX 32 and AMX 40 to undretsnad that their FCS are indeed the same, don't ask me why the caracteristics of the AMX 32 are less detailed than that of the AMX 40 when it comes to the FCS. regarding this point it's stated the AMX 40 can accurately fire on the move ON MOVING targets, we can see that the only thing that differs between AMX 32 and AMX 40 is the nigh equipment vision so i don't know why this detailed got overlooked by Marc Chassilan (the author) that worked on both AMX 32 and AMX 40 project.

 

However from these  documents we know that.

 

AMX 32 and AMX 40 share the same gunner sight

 

AMX 32 and AMX 40 share the same gyrostabilized M527 commander panoramic sight that is stated in both documents to allow firing on the move.

 

AMX 32 and AMX 40 share the same COTAC FCS which allows firing on the move thanks to the inputs sent by the M527 commander panoramic sight.

 

Important detail : COTAC is described as allowing the "Tir en mouvement" in the AMX 40 source but described as allowing the "Tir en marche" in the AMX 32 source. "En marche" and "on the move" mean the same thing in french.

 

As a side note : This way of acheiving stabilization, literally, slaving the gun laying drive system to smaller gyrostabilized device computing angular datas into the FCS is how modern tanks have their main armament stabilized, modern tanks are not equipped with gyro stabilizers anymore, their guns are driven electrically by servos receiving inputs from smaller gyrostabilized devices. The Leopard 2 main gun is stabilized through it's EMES sight.

Edited by Tantor57
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So from what I understand, the AMX-32 and the AMX-40 share the same FCS, but I do have a few questions :

 

Didn't the AMX-30B2 receive the M527 sight in the upgrade ? Any idea what prevents the fire on the move on this version ? Lack of link between the FCS and the sight, weak servos that cannot prevent the gun from moving around ? And didn't the C2 upgrade remedy with the issue ?

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5 hours ago, UrDidact said:

So from what I understand, the AMX-32 and the AMX-40 share the same FCS, but I do have a few questions :

 

Didn't the AMX-30B2 receive the M527 sight in the upgrade ? Any idea what prevents the fire on the move on this version ? Lack of link between the FCS and the sight, weak servos that cannot prevent the gun from moving around ? And didn't the C2 upgrade remedy with the issue ?

M527 was proposed for amx 30 but not adopted due to the cost of the whole retrofit.

 

What actually prevnted amx 30 from firing of the move was the total absence of stabilization device. The gun servos were not receiving any inputs from any optical device.

 

The COTAC FCS was 2 axis stabilized in the sense  that it could calculate fire adjustment both in site and azimuth but the lack of stabilized optic (m527) meant that servos were not driven by any device capable of computing angular datas into the FCS.

 

 

 

C2 upgrade is an obscure prototype i do not know much about sorry.

 

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On 13/03/2019 at 16:07, Tantor57 said:

WsEcmwL.jpg

 

Second paragraph of the page 44 : Source used in the AMX 40 suggestion thread.

 

"La conduite de tir et l'optronique sont reprises en grandes parties de l'AMX 32. La réelle nouveauté en matière de détection des cibles provient de l'intégration d'une caméra thermique CASTOR en lieu et place de la caméra TV DI VT 13 à intensification de lumière"

 

Translation :

 

" The firing control system and optronic devices are extrapolated from the AMX-32. the real novelty about target detection comes from the integration of a CASTOR thermal camera in place of the TV DI VT 13 LLTV device"

 

 

322.jpg

 

Caractéristiques générales de l'AMX 32

 

Viseur chef : Lunette panoramique M527 à deux grossissements permettant le tir en mouvement.

 

Viseur tireur : lunette de masque M581 (the same used on the AMX 40)

 

Conduite de tir : COTAC permettant le tir en mouvement.

 

Translation :

 

General caracteristics of the AMX 32.

 

Tank commander sight : Panoramic sight M527 with two level of magnification allowing a fire on the move capability

 

Tank gunner sight : monocular M581 sight

 

Fire control system : COTAC allowing a fire on the move capability.

 

 

What can be a bit hard to get and i understand that, is that both the AMX 32 and AMX 40 shared the same FCS. The M527 gyrostabilized panoramic commander sight got integrated to the COTAC FCS, the gun was not stabilized by a gyro stabilizer indeed, but was driven by a device that computed angular datas into the COTAC ballistic computer which then drove the servos of the gun to keep it steady with the M527 LoS/LoF.

 

 

 

This doesn't mean it is stabilized. It literally means the gun can fire on the move. Like any tank can do.

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On 14/03/2019 at 07:41, Tantor57 said:

 

I should soon receive the official GIAT brochure of the AMX 32.

 

I know  things are indeed confusing about the AMX 32, but you really need to cross sources about the AMX 32 and AMX 40 to undretsnad that their FCS are indeed the same, don't ask me why the caracteristics of the AMX 32 are less detailed than that of the AMX 40 when it comes to the FCS. regarding this point it's stated the AMX 40 can accurately fire on the move ON MOVING targets, we can see that the only thing that differs between AMX 32 and AMX 40 is the nigh equipment vision so i don't know why this detailed got overlooked by Marc Chassilan (the author) that worked on both AMX 32 and AMX 40 project.

 

However from these  documents we know that.

 

AMX 32 and AMX 40 share the same gunner sight

 

AMX 32 and AMX 40 share the same gyrostabilized M527 commander panoramic sight that is stated in both documents to allow firing on the move.

 

AMX 32 and AMX 40 share the same COTAC FCS which allows firing on the move thanks to the inputs sent by the M527 commander panoramic sight.

 

Important detail : COTAC is described as allowing the "Tir en mouvement" in the AMX 40 source but described as allowing the "Tir en marche" in the AMX 32 source. "En marche" and "on the move" mean the same thing in french.

 

As a side note : This way of acheiving stabilization, literally, slaving the gun laying drive system to smaller gyrostabilized device computing angular datas into the FCS is how modern tanks have their main armament stabilized, modern tanks are not equipped with gyro stabilizers anymore, their guns are driven electrically by servos receiving inputs from smaller gyrostabilized devices. The Leopard 2 main gun is stabilized through it's EMES sight.

We've been over this so many times before and we can go over it again, the AMX-30 and 32 were never stabilized, a stabilized commanders sight and a FCS does not mean the gun itself is stabilized. The AMX-40 does have a 2 plane stabilizer unlike the AMX-32, and where did you get your information on the Leopard 2? It is stabilized through the WNA-H22 2 plane gun stabilizer.

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Details about the AMX 32

 

1552601414-amx-32-caracteristiques-gener

Armement/Conduite de tir AMX 32 :                                                                                                                                                                                         

 

- Pointage electro hydraulique en rotation 360° en site, -8/+20° en azimuth  avec système de contre rotation                                                                                                                                 - - Asservissement des systèmes d'armes sur la visée du chef de char.

 

Translation in english from the brochure :

 

1552601528-amx-32-technical-characterist

 

Armament :

 

- Electrohydraulic gun laying system azimuth 360° elevation -8°/+20° with a counter rotation device

 

- Weapon systems are servo controlled to tank commander sight 

 

Now more.

 

1552601444-amx-32-sequence-de-tir.jpg

 

 

As we can see, the commander spots and tracks the target with it's M527 commander panoramic sight to which the main weaponry is slaved, rangefinds it and sends the information to gunner whom main sight with it's incoporated COTAC FCS device will apply corrections to  the hydraulics gun laying drive system in order to find a firing solution.

 

The bottom line of the right table explains it all.

 

Sequence independant of tank commander and gunner

 

Lead computer

Compensator

Electronic box

Aiming servo actuators

The sight remain fixed on target

 

What is important to note though :

 

The commander alone cannot fire accurately at stationary/moving target wether being stationary or on the move because the COTAC is only available from the gunner station. that means that while the main armament is stabilized through the M527 gyrostabilized commander panoramic sight, in the case of an emergency fire done by the commander even though the main gun is stabilized, the shot might miss it's target due to corrections not being applied by the gunner's COTAC. The commander will solely have to rely on it's aiming device to take the shot.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Details about the AMX 40.

 

1552674792-amx-40-commercial-15.jpg

Observation et conduite de tir :

 

- Pointage electrohydraulique de la tourelle sur 360° en gisement, de l'arme de 120 mm de -8/+20° en site

- à la disposition du chef de char [...]  une lunette panoramique gyrostabilisée (épiscope M527) [...] permettant l'observation et le tir en marche quasi-instantané grâce au dispositif d'asservissement des armes sur la visée

 

Translation in english from the brochure :

 

1552674792-amx-40-commercial-16.jpg

Observation and fire control :

 

- Electrohydraulic control of  the turret giving 360° traverse and elevation for the 120 mm gun of -8°/+20°

- For the commander [...] a gyrostabilized panoramic sight (M527 sight)[...]this sight makes it possible to observe and open fire almost instantly whilst on the move because because the weapon is slaved to the sight.

 

Description conduite de tir :

 

1552674734-amx-40-commercial-8.jpg

[...]Le chef de char dispose d'une couronne panoramique periscopique et d'une lunette periscopique stabilisée qui lui permet, char en marche, d'observer, de détecter et d'identifier l'adervsaire. Elle lui offre alors la possibilitée de tirer en marche sur cette objectif fixe ou mobile le canon étant rallié puis asservi à la lunette. Un tel tir d'urgence peut-être effectué "dans la foulée" sans arrêt du char dans un temps très court (inférieur à 5 secondes) avec une bonne probabilité d'atteinte au premier coup jusqu'à 1800m.

 

Translation from the brochure :

 

1552674734-amx-40-commercial-10.jpg

[...] The tank commander can use a panoramic periscopic ring and a stabilized periscopic sight which allows observation, detection and identification of the ennemy with tank in motion, on this fixed or mobile target, the gun being homed and then slaved to the sight. Such an emergency firing can be carried out "on the run" with a good first hit probability up to 1800m.

 

Comparison between AMX 32 FCS and AMX 40 FCS

 

-Same M527 gyrostabilized panoramic device to which the weapon systems are servo controled which allows the stabilization of the main armament. Neither the AMX 32 and AMX 40 were equipped with a 2 plane gun stabilizer.

-This system allows for both tank to open fire from the tank commander station on mobile or fixed target in less than 5 seconds with a good first hit probability up to 1700 meters for the AMX 32 (i have the source for that just ask) and 1800 meters for the AMX 40. 

-The COTAC ballistic calculator was not available to the commander station on both tank. It means that even if the tank could fire on the move, the ballistic corrections to be applied to the hydraulics was only available to the gunner station.

 

AMX 32 internals :

 

1552601471-amx-32-cutaway-1.jpg1552601474-amx-32-cutaway-2.jpg

 

AMX 40 internals

 

1552674862-amx-40-commercial-33.jpg1552674863-amx-40-commercial-34.jpg

 

At last, video of the AMX 40 with it's main armament slaved to the M527 panoramic sight just like it was on the AMX 32

 

 

 

 

 

Sources used :

 

GIAT AMX 32 brochure 1985

GIAT AMX 40 brochure 1983

PROFIL Revue internationale de stratégie

 

 

Edited by Tantor57
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10 hours ago, Maj_Mio_Sakamoto said:

We've been over this so many times before and we can go over it again, the AMX-30 and 32 were never stabilized, a stabilized commanders sight and a FCS does not mean the gun itself is stabilized. The AMX-40 does have a 2 plane stabilizer unlike the AMX-32, and where did you get your information on the Leopard 2? It is stabilized through the WNA-H22 2 plane gun stabilizer.

Yes the gun is equipped with a electro hydrualic gun stabilizer but when this system is on, from what i could read at least, it is the gun that follows the EMES 15 and not the contrary.

 

French never mounted stabilizers on their tanks. It's all done via slaving the gun to optical devices.

 

Just because there is not a built in 2 plane gun stabilizer does not mean the main armament is not 2 plane stabilized1. It's just a matter of how.

 

Moreover, the AMX 40 did not feature a gun stabilizer either. Only the english written website spread this information, no french document state that it had a built in stabilizer It was again acheived via slaving the gun to gyro stabilized optical devices. Even the AMX Leclerc does not have a built in gun stabilizer. The gun is slaved to optical device, the FCS that allows for corrections is available to both the commander and the gunner. Only available to the commander in both AMX 40 and AMX 32

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1 hour ago, Tantor57 said:

I have something new to show.

 

1552601414-amx-32-caracteristiques-gener

Armement :

 

- Pointage electro hydraulique en rotation 360° en site, -8/+20° en azimuth avec dispositif de contre-rotation.

 

- Asservissement des systèmes d'armes sur la visée du chef de char.

 

Translation in english from the brochure :

 

1552601528-amx-32-technical-characterist

 

Armament :

 

- Electrohydraulic gun laying system azimuth 360° elevation -8°/+20° with a counter rotation device

 

- Weapon systems are servo controlled to tank commander sight 

 

Now more.

 

1552601444-amx-32-sequence-de-tir.jpg

 

 

As we can see, the commander spots and tracks the target with it's M527 commander panoramic sight to which the main weaponry is slaved, rangefinds it and sends the information to gunner whom main sight with it's incoporated COTAC FCS device will apply corrections to  the hydraulics gun laying drive system in order to find a firing solution.

 

The bottom line of the right table explains it all.

 

Sequence independant of tank commander and gunner

 

Lead computer

Compensator

Electronic box

Aiming servo actuators

The sight remain fixed on target

 

What is important to note though :

 

The commander alone cannot fire accurately at stationary/moving target wether being stationary or on the move because the COTAC is only available from the gunner station. that means that while the main armament is stabilized through the M527 gyrostabilized commander panoramic sight, in the case of an emergency fire done by the commander even though the main gun is stabilized, the shot might miss it's target due to corrections not being applied by the gunner's COTAC. The commander will solely have to rely on it's aiming device to take the shot.

 

Soon to be added to this thread

 

- A second GIAT brochure dtaing from the 1981 Satory exhibtion

 

- A detailed comparison between AMX 40 and AMX 32 FCS based on GIAT brochures of both vehicles.
 

 

Excellent work there !

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I mean lets be honest here, lets say the AMX32 is added, both the 105mm and 120mm versions. lets say for argument sake they had no 2 plane stabilisation or any ability to stabilise the gun. is it fair french would yet again get another set of tanks without any form of stabilisation to make them remotely competitive. they legit only have 1 stab tank and even then as pointed out it never actually had a 2 plane stabilisation system in place, it was slaved to the commander just like the Leclerc has been since its introduction. 

 

The problem is, if they add both AXM32's without stabs or any form of it. what BR do you place them at? there composite was not exactly 'great' I think worse than the AMX40 meaning they cannot be anything above 9.0 to be remotely competitive maybe the AMX32 120mm but you would just be shooting it in the foot before its released into the game.

 

Gaijin should really just allow the use of a 'limited' stabiliser mode. maybe cap it at 20mph to make french somewhat competitive till they add in FCS mechanics. especially if they plan to add either AMX32 versions as a premium 9.0. I mean if you have tanks like the Shot Kal and T55AM below 9.0 with tbh similar guns and maybe somewhat better armour profiles (especially) T55AM it would be an outcry to introduce an AMX32 120mm/105mm as a 9.0 without a stabiliser no one would buy it and all you would be doing is making a very limited played nation even more limited in player numbers. 

 

Just consider adding in proper FCS mechanics to make french tanks actually competitive, or take a step back and consider a limited form of stab so they can be 'worthy' of being added otherwise no will play them if there going to be above 9.0 with no stabiliser mode what so ever. which presents 2 issues, you either have a very large influx of 8.3's and 8.7's for french tbh would be somewhat broke imo or you spread it out by making the AMX32's stabilised 'somewhat what unrealistic approach' till proper FCS mechanics are in so the tech tree can be spread out more for players to grind and play at different BR's.

Edited by TheCloop123
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1 hour ago, TheCloop123 said:

I mean lets be honest here, lets say the AMX32 is added, both the 105mm and 120mm versions. lets say for argument sake they had no 2 plane stabilisation or any ability to stabilise the gun. is it fair french would yet again get another set of tanks without any form of stabilisation to make them remotely competitive. they legit only have 1 stab tank and even then as pointed out it never actually had a 2 plane stabilisation system in place, it was slaved to the commander just like the Leclerc has been since its introduction. 

 

The problem is, if they add both AXM32's without stabs or any form of it. what BR do you place them at? there composite was not exactly 'great' I think worse than the AMX40 meaning they cannot be anything above 9.0 to be remotely competitive maybe the AMX32 120mm but you would just be shooting it in the foot before its released into the game.

 

Gaijin should really just allow the use of a 'limited' stabiliser mode. maybe cap it at 20mph to make french somewhat competitive till they add in FCS mechanics. especially if they plan to add either AMX32 versions as a premium 9.0. I mean if you have tanks like the Shot Kal and T55AM below 9.0 with tbh similar guns and maybe somewhat better armour profiles (especially) T55AM it would be an outcry to introduce an AMX32 120mm/105mm as a 9.0 without a stabiliser no one would buy it and all you would be doing is making a very limited played nation even more limited in player numbers. 

 

Just consider adding in proper FCS mechanics to make french tanks actually competitive, or take a step back and consider a limited form of stab so they can be 'worthy' of being added otherwise no will play them if there going to be above 9.0 with no stabiliser mode what so ever. which presents 2 issues, you either have a very large influx of 8.3's and 8.7's for french tbh would be somewhat broke imo or you spread it out by making the AMX32's stabilised 'somewhat what unrealistic approach' till proper FCS mechanics are in so the tech tree can be spread out more for players to grind and play at different BR's.

Wait i'm not done. My next cross wm work with primary sources is going to prove my point that AMX 40 and AMX 32 had the exact same FCS. FROM GIAT SALES BROCHURES. I have actually primary sources to work with. You guys have.... i guess nothing but some websites (army recognition, military today ?) or missinformed secondary sources.

 

What is actually funny is that when Gaijin adds (if it will ever be added) more in depth FCS AMX 40 should not and will not be able to compensate ballistics on the move unlile Leopard 2's, Type 90 and the likes which could have the gun be not only stabilized but also apply lead correction to take both the move of the tank and its target into account something the AMX 32 and the AMX 40 could perform only when being stationnary. 

 

And there is a dynamic demonstration of the AMX 40 showing that its main armament was stabilized despite not having a 2 plane gun stabilizer, 

 

 

 

Seriously.

 

Plebs need to stop beleiving that guns cannot be stabilised in any other way but by a 2 plane gun stabilizer. AMX leclerc does not have a 2 plane gun stabilizer either. 

Edited by Tantor57
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14 hours ago, Tantor57 said:

Details about the AMX 32

 

1552601414-amx-32-caracteristiques-gener

Armement/Conduite de tir AMX 32 :                                                                                                                                                                                         

 

- Pointage electro hydraulique en rotation 360° en site, -8/+20° en azimuth  avec système de contre rotation                                                                                                                                 - - Asservissement des systèmes d'armes sur la visée du chef de char.

 

Translation in english from the brochure :

 

1552601528-amx-32-technical-characterist

 

Armament :

 

- Electrohydraulic gun laying system azimuth 360° elevation -8°/+20° with a counter rotation device

 

- Weapon systems are servo controlled to tank commander sight 

 

Now more.

 

1552601444-amx-32-sequence-de-tir.jpg

 

 

As we can see, the commander spots and tracks the target with it's M527 commander panoramic sight to which the main weaponry is slaved, rangefinds it and sends the information to gunner whom main sight with it's incoporated COTAC FCS device will apply corrections to  the hydraulics gun laying drive system in order to find a firing solution.

 

The bottom line of the right table explains it all.

 

Sequence independant of tank commander and gunner

 

Lead computer

Compensator

Electronic box

Aiming servo actuators

The sight remain fixed on target

 

What is important to note though :

 

The commander alone cannot fire accurately at stationary/moving target wether being stationary or on the move because the COTAC is only available from the gunner station. that means that while the main armament is stabilized through the M527 gyrostabilized commander panoramic sight, in the case of an emergency fire done by the commander even though the main gun is stabilized, the shot might miss it's target due to corrections not being applied by the gunner's COTAC. The commander will solely have to rely on it's aiming device to take the shot.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Details about the AMX 40.

 

1552674792-amx-40-commercial-15.jpg

Observation et conduite de tir :

 

- Pointage electrohydraulique de la tourelle sur 360° en gisement, de l'arme de 120 mm de -8/+20° en site

- à la disposition du chef de char [...]  une lunette panoramique gyrostabilisée (épiscope M527) [...] permettant l'observation et le tir en marche quasi-instantané grâce au dispositif d'asservissement des armes sur la visée

 

Translation in english from the brochure :

 

1552674792-amx-40-commercial-16.jpg

Observation and fire control :

 

- Electrohydraulic control of  the turret giving 360° traverse and elevation for the 120 mm gun of -8°/+20°

- For the commander [...] a gyrostabilized panoramic sight (M527 sight)[...]this sight makes it possible to observe and open fire almost instantly whilst on the move because because the weapon is slaved to the sight.

 

Description conduite de tir :

 

1552674734-amx-40-commercial-8.jpg

[...]Le chef de char dispose d'une couronne panoramique periscopique et d'une lunette periscopique stabilisée qui lui permet, char en marche, d'observer, de détecter et d'identifier l'adervsaire. Elle lui offre alors la possibilitée de tirer en marche sur cette objectif fixe ou mobile le canon étant rallié puis asservi à la lunette. Un tel tir d'urgence peut-être effectué "dans la foulée" sans arrêt du char dans un temps très court (inférieur à 5 secondes) avec une bonne probabilité d'atteinte au premier coup jusqu'à 1800m.

 

Translation from the brochure :

 

1552674734-amx-40-commercial-10.jpg

[...] The tank commander can use a panoramic periscopic ring and a stabilized periscopic sight which allows observation, detection and identification of the ennemy with tank in motion, on this fixed or mobile target, the gun being homed and then slaved to the sight. Such an emergency firing can be carried out "on the run" with a good first hit probability up to 1800m.

 

Comparison between AMX 32 FCS and AMX 40 FCS

 

-Same M527 gyrostabilized panoramic device to which the weapon systems are servo controled which allows the stabilization of the main armament. Neither the AMX 32 and AMX 40 were equipped with a 2 plane gun stabilizer.

-This system allows for both tank to open fire from the tank commander station on mobile or fixed target in less than 5 seconds with a good first hit probability up to 1700 meters for the AMX 32 (i have the source for that just ask) and 1800 meters for the AMX 40. 

-The COTAC ballistic calculator was not available to the commander station on both tank. It means that even if the tank could fire on the move, the ballistic corrections to be applied to the hydraulics was only available to the gunner station.

 

AMX 32 internals :

 

1552601471-amx-32-cutaway-1.jpg1552601474-amx-32-cutaway-2.jpg

 

AMX 40 internals

 

1552674862-amx-40-commercial-33.jpg1552674863-amx-40-commercial-34.jpg

 

At last, video of the AMX 40 with it's main armament slaved to the M527 panoramic sight just like it was on the AMX 32

 

 

 

 

 

Sources used :

 

GIAT AMX 32 brochure 1985

GIAT AMX 40 brochure 1983

PROFIL Revue internationale de stratégie

 

 

Updated.

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Come on guys. @Tantor57literally brings you SALES BROCHURES FROM THE TANK DESIGNER and you still don't believe that the tank is stabilized?! If stabilization by the use of FCS isn't true stabilization, why then are German Leopards stabilized at all? there's no way they fit gyrostab into the tank, same with soviet T-XX series.

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12 hours ago, Tantor57 said:

Plebs need to stop beleiving that guns cannot be stabilised in any other way but by a 2 plane gun stabilizer. AMX leclerc does not have a 2 plane gun stabilizer either.

read what I said again, I legit said 'lets say for argument sake they had no 2 plane stabilisation or any ability to stabilise the gun' doesn't mean I never said it wasn't stabilised. I know both the AMX40 and AMX32 could stabilise the gun from the commander optics but as my whole point talks about. right now they are in a catch 22 predicament with these tanks. 

 

You either add in both versions of the AMX32 one (prem) one (tech tree) with no stabilisation at all and then you end up with a situation where your premium doesn't sell unless its minimum 8.3, the armour is nothing major on the AMX32's so there is no way its 8.7 worthy if it has no stabiliser when it uses identical ammo to both the AMX40 (120mm) and AMX30B2/Brenus (105mm) so not only will these have to be heavily reduced in BR to make them competitive, you will also end up with a huge influx of 8.3 and 8.7 French Tanks with no stabilisers at all again making the premium completely worthless for anyone wanting to grind the tech tree out and reach 'top tier' for the french.

 

The other side is, you add in stabilisation (just like the AMX40 has) even though again that never had true 2 plane stabilisation. it used the FCS system for stabilisation which means gaijin end up with a problem, they give both AMX32's stabilisation to make french 9.0+ competitive (which they would be if they got 2 stab tanks) but it would be 'unrealistic for them' in terms of realism (just like) the M60A1 Ariete issue.......... do you see my point.

 

If Gaijin have any sense in adding either version of the AMX32 or even both, they are going to have to either add in full FCS mechanics so they can get 'stabilisation' or they gimp the realism and give it stabilisation just like the AMX40 has in game even though it uses an identical system to the AMX32's which apparently 'cannot' get stabilisation if they were brought into the game right now. which makes no sense because the AMX40 has stabilisation in game 'meaning' they are capable of bending the realism for the sake of players.

 

My point stands, you either add in AMX32's with stabs then they can be placed respectively at 9.0+ making french competitive and worth while (unrealistic at best) or add FCS instead but this could actual limit the AMX32's if it requires commander linking and could be limited in terms of fire on the move capabilities. or you introduce them without stabs at all and end up with so many 8.3's and 8.7's for the french defeating the purpose of ever playing above 9.0 especially with the current MM and defeating the purpose of a premium if its legit gunna have the same gun, similar armour profile and ammo to the already B2 and Brenus at the same BR's.

 

They are gunna have to bend the rules a little if they have no plans to add in FCS any time soon because anymore more 8.3's and 8.7's for the French will saturate not only 8.3/8.7 BR bracket you make all the 9.0 vehicles (aircraft and helicopters included) utterly worthless for the french. 

 

Edited by TheCloop123
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12 hours ago, Tantor57 said:

Wait i'm not done. My next cross wm work with primary sources is going to prove my point that AMX 40 and AMX 32 had the exact same FCS. FROM GIAT SALES BROCHURES. I have actually primary sources to work with. You guys have.... i guess nothing but some websites (army recognition, military today ?) or missinformed secondary sources.

 

What is actually funny is that when Gaijin adds (if it will ever be added) more in depth FCS AMX 40 should not and will not be able to compensate ballistics on the move unlile Leopard 2's, Type 90 and the likes which could have the gun be not only stabilized but also apply lead correction to take both the move of the tank and its target into account something the AMX 32 and the AMX 40 could perform only when being stationnary. 

 

And there is a dynamic demonstration of the AMX 40 showing that its main armament was stabilized despite not having a 2 plane gun stabilizer, 

 

 

 

Seriously.

 

Plebs need to stop beleiving that guns cannot be stabilised in any other way but by a 2 plane gun stabilizer. AMX leclerc does not have a 2 plane gun stabilizer either. 

 

Great job mate as always! Good to see some sourced claims made to debunk the "military recognition" specialists!

keep it on!

 

Ps: Btw are you aware if it is a similar system used to stabilise the export versions of the AMX-30?

 

Edited by unwinder66
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48 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

read what I said again, I legit said 'lets say for argument sake they had no 2 plane stabilisation or any ability to stabilise the gun' doesn't mean I never said it wasn't stabilised. I know both the AMX40 and AMX32 could stabilise the gun from the commander optics but as my whole point talks about. right now they are in a catch 22 predicament with these tanks. 

 

You either add in both versions of the AMX32 one (prem) one (tech tree) with no stabilisation at all and then you end up with a situation where your premium doesn't sell unless its minimum 8.3, the armour is nothing major on the AMX32's so there is no way its 8.7 worthy if it has no stabiliser when it uses identical ammo to both the AMX40 (120mm) and AMX30B2/Brenus (105mm) so not only will these have to be heavily reduced in BR to make them competitive, you will also end up with a huge influx of 8.3 and 8.7 French Tanks with no stabilisers at all again making the premium completely worthless for anyone wanting to grind the tech tree out and reach 'top tier' for the french.

 

The other side is, you add in stabilisation (just like the AMX40 has) even though again that never had true 2 plane stabilisation. it used the FCS system for stabilisation which means gaijin end up with a problem, they give both AMX32's stabilisation to make french 9.0+ competitive (which they would be if they got 2 stab tanks) but it would be 'unrealistic for them' in terms of realism (just like) the M60A1 Ariete issue.......... do you see my point.

 

If Gaijin have any sense in adding either version of the AMX32 or even both, they are going to have to either add in full FCS mechanics so they can get 'stabilisation' or they gimp the realism and give it stabilisation just like the AMX40 has in game even though it uses an identical system to the AMX32's which apparently 'cannot' get stabilisation if they were brought into the game right now. which makes no sense because the AMX40 has stabilisation in game 'meaning' they are capable of bending the realism for the sake of players.

 

My point stands, you either add in AMX32's with stabs then they can be placed respectively at 9.0+ making french competitive and worth while (unrealistic at best) or add FCS instead but this could actual limit the AMX32's if it requires commander linking and could be limited in terms of fire on the move capabilities. or you introduce them without stabs at all and end up with so many 8.3's and 8.7's for the french defeating the purpose of ever playing above 9.0 especially with the current MM and defeating the purpose of a premium if its legit gunna have the same gun, similar armour profile and ammo to the already B2 and Brenus at the same BR's.

 

They are gunna have to bend the rules a little if they have no plans to add in FCS any time soon because anymore more 8.3's and 8.7's for the French will saturate not only 8.3/8.7 BR bracket you make all the 9.0 vehicles (aircraft and helicopters included) utterly worthless for the french. 

 

I honnestly do not get your point. There is no "real" or "unreal" 2 plane stabilisation. There is just 2 plane stabilisation that can be acheived through several means, thus, slaving the main armament of the tank to a gyro stabilized optic being one of them. Again, from a gameplay PoV as far as War Thunder complexity goes at the moment, that is a non issue since modern FCS is not modelled into the game and that every tank has to do the fire adjustment manually.

 

And what you say is however true, if modern FCS are added, both AMX 32 and AMX 40 will have limited fire on the move capability because they will be unable to have "leading indicator" to ensure a shot that would take into account both the movement of the tank and the target into account. During AMX 40 testings, French military expressed their requirement that the fire on the move capability had to be extended to the gunner station aswell since the COTAC FCS was only available through it's M581 laser-rangefinding telescopic sight. This never made it into the design of the AMX 40 but it eventually came with the Leclerc where both the commander and the gunner had every FCS parameters available from their respective station.

 

That being said this could also help to decompress the game even more. Only modern 3rd gen MBTS would have access to modern FCS with the ability to compensate for every parameters that must be taken into account to deliver a very high first hit probability while on the move

Edited by Tantor57
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1 hour ago, Tantor57 said:

I honnestly do not get your point. There is no "real" or "unreal" 2 plane stabilisation. There is just 2 plane stabilisation that can be acheived through several means, thus, slaving the main armament of the tank to a gyro stabilized optic being one of them. Again, from a gameplay PoV as far as War Thunder complexity goes at the moment, that is a non issue since modern FCS is not modelled into the game and that every tank has to do the fire adjustment manually.

That is not my point............. (if I made it confusing my bad) but as I have said, my point is gaijin need to bend the rules and give AMX32's stabilisation if they are ever added before FCS is introduced (AMX40 is already an example of this), because if they add them without FCS then you either give them stabilisation (unrealistic system) (up there BR's) makes French worth grinding past 9.0 or you once again introduce basically copy paste 8.3 and 8.7 tanks just with a slight tweak to armour that honestly will have no effect at 8.3/8.7 and you end up with a situation where no one will buy a premium at 8.7/8.3 if it has no stabiliser equipped and no one will even bother once again playing French the most underplayed nation right now at top tier. they seriously need to make some huge changes to the French tech tree to make them worth playing.

 

Gaijin will shoot themselves in the foot if they dare add an AMX32 (120mm/105mm) at 8.7/9.0 without stabilisation, no one would legit buy it knowing already how bad the Brenus is at the same BR without stabilisation. that is my point. gaijin need to bend rules over realism. 

 

I would prefer they give AMX32's full stab upon release then at a later date they add FCS and 'fix' there stabilisation system so its more accurate. but till then french do not need another 8.3 or 8.7 tank without stabilisation, they need an actual 9.0/9.3/10.0 and both variants of the 32's would fit very nicely in those 9.0/9.3 slots with stabilisation systems.

Edited by TheCloop123
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1 hour ago, Tantor57 said:

both AMX 32 and AMX 40 will have limited fire on the move capability because they will be unable to have "leading indicator" to ensure a shot that would take into account both the movement of the tank and the target into account. During AMX 40 testings, French military expressed their requirement that the fire on the move capability had to be extended to the gunner station aswell since the COTAC FCS was only available through it's M581 laser-rangefinding telescopic sight. This never made it into the design of the AMX 40 but it eventually came with the Leclerc where both the commander and the gunner had every FCS parameters available from their respective station.

This is partly how and why they should bend the rules of realism. AMX40 in game right now has an extremely good stabilisation even though as you have pointed it was only commander optics stabilised through FCS. so if Gaijin can bend the rules on the AMX40 why can they not for the AMX32's especially if one is going to be a £50 premium (potentially premium) 

Edited by TheCloop123
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35 minutes ago, TheCloop123 said:

This is partly how and why they should bend the rules of realism. AMX40 in game right now has an extremely good stabilisation even though as you have pointed it was only commander optics stabilised through FCS. so if Gaijin can bend the rules on the AMX40 why can they not for the AMX32's especially if one is going to be a £50 premium (potentially premium) 

I really don't enjoy the idea of having one of the AMX-32 as a premium. Premium should be reserved to tanks that don't bring much to the tree. So I'd rather see an AMX-30V or a C2 filling that role.

Edited by UrDidact
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27 minutes ago, UrDidact said:

I really don't enjoy the idea of having one of the AMX-32 as a premium. Premium should be reserved to tanks that don't bring much to the tree. So I'd rather see an AMX-30V or a C2 filling that role.

I wouldnt either but from what I know these are the only ones 'submitted' no idea on the C2 or 30V if they have been submitted so chances are one AMX32 version will be a premium if we are being honest.

Edited by TheCloop123
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