AJAtcho

Stormer HVM Short-range air defense missile system

hey, guys!

I think there is something wrong with the Starstreak's penetration and damage in the game.

 

Here is the one of three darts of starstreak missile.

star1.jpg.3f761aed47210b39e89cdd839934ef

 

Warhead weight 3x2.0 lb (0.90 kg) tungsten alloy darts, 16 oz (450 g) PBX-98 per dart

The dart housing is made from a tungsten alloy. The darts are each 396 millimetres (15.6 in) long with a diameter of 22 millimetres (0.87 in) and weigh about 900 grams (32 oz). Around half the weight of each dart, approximately 450 g (16 oz), is its explosive charge, detonated by a delayed-action, impact activated fuze.

On impact with the target, a delayed action fuze is triggered. This gives time for the projectile to penetrate the target before the explosive warhead detonates. The tungsten housing is designed to fragment and produce maximum damage inside the target

Each sub-munition dart travelling at 1,250 metres per second (4,100 ft/s; 2,800 mph) has comparable kinetic energy to a shell from a Bofors 40 mm gun and probably has sufficient energy to penetrate the front armour of an infantry fighting vehicle.

 

 

From the information above we can make a statement that STARstreak darts could be treated as apfsds with some approximation.

It has a similar KE as Bofors 40mm steel ap round.

The 40mm Bofors AP round penetrates about 80mm of RHA which is 1.6 times better than Starstreak. And that is strange, how is that happened that conventional WW2 era design steel AP round performs better than modern round with much more effective in terms of penetration sabot.

 

Lets calculate by Lanz Odermatt formula how much armour could penetrate such dart

2fTFujty2PU.jpg

Not bad, I got to tell ya.

But, our dart definitely has a cavity with the explosives, so that basically makes him a PELE round. That cavity should reduce the penetration but I really doubt it reduces it more than 5 times.

But how exactly it reduces I don't know.

And I need help, who knows how should be calculated such rounds? 

Is there any formula for such purposes?

 

I thought about comparison between penetration of 120mm DM33 vs 120mm DM33 PELE sabots.

Can we state that there is a some coefficient K of drop of penetration that depends on ratio of cavity volume to volume of round itself ?

Can we say that STARstreak sabot penetrates 264.4mm x K, where 

K = (DM33 pen/DM 33 PELE pen)?

 

I'm not familiar with terminal ballistics, so that is my only idea of possible approach. I would be glad if someone who is more competent will propose a better solution.

Thank you.

 

 

Edited by erilon03
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3 hours ago, erilon03 said:

hey, guys!

I think there is something wrong with the Starstreak's penetration and damage in the game.

 

Here is the one of three darts of starstreak missile.

star1.jpg.3f761aed47210b39e89cdd839934ef

 

Warhead weight 3x2.0 lb (0.90 kg) tungsten alloy darts, 16 oz (450 g) PBX-98 per dart

The dart housing is made from a tungsten alloy. The darts are each 396 millimetres (15.6 in) long with a diameter of 22 millimetres (0.87 in) and weigh about 900 grams (32 oz). Around half the weight of each dart, approximately 450 g (16 oz), is its explosive charge, detonated by a delayed-action, impact activated fuze.

On impact with the target, a delayed action fuze is triggered. This gives time for the projectile to penetrate the target before the explosive warhead detonates. The tungsten housing is designed to fragment and produce maximum damage inside the target

Each sub-munition dart travelling at 1,250 metres per second (4,100 ft/s; 2,800 mph) has comparable kinetic energy to a shell from a Bofors 40 mm gun and probably has sufficient energy to penetrate the front armour of an infantry fighting vehicle.

 

 

From the information above we can make a statement that STARstreak darts could be treated as apfsds with some approximation.

It has a similar KE as Bofors 40mm steel ap round.

The 40mm Bofors AP round penetrates about 80mm of RHA which is 1.6 times better than Starstreak. And that is strange, how is that happened that conventional WW2 era design steel AP round performs better than modern round with much more effective in terms of penetration sabot.

 

Lets calculate by Lanz Odermatt formula how much armour could penetrate such dart

2fTFujty2PU.jpg

Not bad, I got to tell ya.

But, our dart definitely has a cavity with the explosives, so that basically makes him a PELE round. That cavity should reduce the penetration but I really doubt it reduces it more than 5 times.

But how exactly it reduces I don't know.

And I need help, who knows how should be calculated such rounds? 

Is there any formula for such purposes?

 

I thought about comparison between penetration of 120mm DM33 vs 120mm DM33 PELE sabots.

Can we state that there is a some coefficient K of drop of penetration that depends on ratio of cavity volume to volume of round itself ?

Can we say that STARstreak sabot penetrates 264.4mm x K, where 

K = (DM33 pen/DM 33 PELE pen)?

 

I'm not familiar with terminal ballistics, so that is my only idea of possible approach. I would be glad if someone who is more competent will propose a better solution.

Thank you.

 

 

One thing it's not a solid dart I'm pretty sure they have a motor and fuel within to propel the dart so you cant class it as a 400mm long tungsten dart. Not to mention we dont even know what grade of tungsten alloy is used. The makers of the starstreak said it's capable of defeating IFV front but not more armoured tanks. I would say the 50mm we have in the dev server is fine.

Edited by *oppsijustkilledu
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3 hours ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

One thing it's not a solid dart I'm pretty sure they have a motor and fuel within to propel the dart so you cant class it as a 400mm long tungsten dart. Not to mention we dont even know what grade of tungsten alloy is used. The makers of the starstreak said it's capable of defeating IFV front but not more armoured tanks. I would say the 50mm we have in the dev server is fine.

Well, there's no motor or fuel, but there is the fuze and explosives.

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5 hours ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

One thing it's not a solid dart I'm pretty sure they have a motor and fuel within to propel the dart so you cant class it as a 400mm long tungsten dart. Not to mention we dont even know what grade of tungsten alloy is used. The makers of the starstreak said it's capable of defeating IFV front but not more armoured tanks. I would say the 50mm we have in the dev server is fine.

You didn't get it, each of he dart doesn't have any motor. They are carried by by engines of each detachable stages of missle.

The whole missile weights 14 kg and its length  is 1.4meters. 

So I may treat them  as 396mm long rods.

And 50mm isn't enough for the tungsten thing traveling at 1250 m/s especially when steel rounds at 700m/s defends more armour

 

 

starstreak1.jpg

Edited by erilon03
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4 hours ago, erilon03 said:

You didn't get it, each of he dart doesn't have any motor. They are carried by by engines of each detachable stages of missle.

The whole missile weights 14 kg and its length  is 1.4meters. 

So I may treat them  as 396mm long rods.

And 50mm isn't enough for the tungsten thing traveling at 1250 m/s especially when steel rounds at 700m/s defends more armour

 

 

starstreak1.jpg

Yes I've already been told. But you still csnt treat them as 396mm long rods because each dart still has a guidance system, explosives, fuse and electronics within it. So no it still wont have 264mm of penetration. And I'll say it again the creators of the StarStreak said themselves it's only capable of defeating light armoured ground vehicles like IFV such as the BMP for example.

Edited by *oppsijustkilledu
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Well I can barely kill/disable a Leo 2A5 from the front with an L23 from a CR1, but so long as I can get some flanking shots with a Starstreak...well good luck surviving 3 x PELE rounds going off inside.   T-series Sov tanks might be an issue though.    

 

Got to be 80%+ of kills with ATGMs are side shots for me.

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1 hour ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

Yes I've already been told. But you still csnt treat them as 396mm long rods because each dart still has a guidance system, explosives, fuse and electronics within it. So no it still wont have 264mm of penetration. And I'll say it again the creators of the StarStreak said themselves it's only capable of defeating light armoured ground vehicles like IFV such as the BMP for example.

Have you even read what I've posted above?  

Each of the darts has no any guidance system or any electronics, only explosive and fuse, they are carried by the missile itself which consists of the the electronics engine, and triple dart warhead.

So the darts itself act like a PELE apfsds rounds, they have a common design.

jgFQAsMVTXY_1.thumb.jpg.3d531ee705425902

And I never told that the penetration of starstreak should be 264mm of RHA.

I told that if the darts were not be filled by explosive, if they were entirely made of tungsten alloy so by Lanz Odermatt formula they could defeat ~ 250mm of RHA.

But PELE rounds are less penetrative than the ordinary apfsds, they are not effective against spaced armour.

the PELE has a greatly reduced armor penetrating capability compared to that of a regular APFSDS round, with the DM33 PELE only able to penetrate 200mm of armor at a range of 1,500 meters while a standard DM33 APFSDS ammunition could penetrate 500mm at a range of 1,500 meters..

 

My point is that STARstreak darts should penetrate same way, 2.5-2.75 times less than if they were made without cavity and explosives.

So it is about 95-105mm.

This is a reasonable, long rod fin stabilized round  with the same KE as 40mm Bofors ap round (penetrates 80mm) should be more effective. 

 

100mm of penetration can't deal with MBT's frontal armour either but can defeat any IFV's, not BMP particularly since the BMP Isn't the best in terms of protection. That is a bad example. Marder 1a3 ifv for example could easily withstand against BMP-2 30x165mm apds round ( penetrates 100mm)

Edited by erilon03
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50mm is definitely too little pen. Even RP3s pen more than that, and those are the same concept but much slower, steel with filler instead of tungsten and a worse overall shape for penetration. My guess would be around 90-100

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1 hour ago, erilon03 said:

Have you even read what I've posted above?  

Each of the darts has no any guidance system or any electronics, only explosive and fuse, they are carried by the missile itself which consists of the the electronics engine, and triple dart warhead.

So the darts itself act like a PELE apfsds rounds, they have a common design.

jgFQAsMVTXY_1.thumb.jpg.3d531ee705425902

And I never told that the penetration of starstreak should be 264mm of RHA.

I told that if the darts were not be filled by explosive, if they were entirely made of tungsten alloy so by Lanz Odermatt formula they could defeat ~ 250mm of RHA.

But PELE rounds are less penetrative than the ordinary apfsds, they are not effective against spaced armour.

the PELE has a greatly reduced armor penetrating capability compared to that of a regular APFSDS round, with the DM33 PELE only able to penetrate 200mm of armor at a range of 1,500 meters while a standard DM33 APFSDS ammunition could penetrate 500mm at a range of 1,500 meters..

 

My point is that STARstreak darts should penetrate same way, 2.5-2.75 times less than if they were made without cavity and explosives.

So it is about 95-105mm.

This is a reasonable, long rod fin stabilized round  with the same KE as 40mm Bofors ap round (penetrates 80mm) should be more effective. 

 

100mm of penetration can't deal with MBT's frontal armour either but can defeat any IFV's, not BMP particularly since the BMP Isn't the best in terms of protection. That is a bad example. Marder 1a3 ifv for example could easily withstand against BMP-2 30x165mm apds round ( penetrates 100mm)

You do realise the 1st and 2nd stage boosters separate from the darts. The 1st stage separates the moment it leaves the launcher then the darts detach themself from the 2nd stage booster and split off into a 1.5m spread and are guided onto the target. If the darts didnt have a guidance system in they would just go in a straight line. From a video illustrating how they work 

Screenshot_20190520-093310_YouTube.jpg

 

Also just to add more to this I checked a document I downloaded from the designers of the missle themselves THEY THEMSELVES SAY THE 3 DARTS ARE LASER GUIDED SO THEY MUST HAVE A GUIDANCE SYSTEM.

 

20190520_094111.jpg

Edited by *oppsijustkilledu
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A key point here is the reference to the Bofors projectile; does anywhere make it clear if that is a WW2 Bofors or an L70 Bofors?  The calculations for the Mass and velocity would suggest the latter.

 

Btw. Mach 4. Going to take some evading.

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one thing is not clear is how the gudance was made.

 

did they keep the laser designation on the target? or did they had to guess the lead like we do now in wt.

 

also one thing i hated is how right after we lock the target the zoom gets to a max (wich is a lot) smoke fills your screen and you cant see anything for a short while. that gives time for cas to evade when they close.

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2 hours ago, zuadao said:

one thing is not clear is how the gudance was made.

 

did they keep the laser designation on the target? or did they had to guess the lead like we do now in wt.

 

also one thing i hated is how right after we lock the target the zoom gets to a max (wich is a lot) smoke fills your screen and you cant see anything for a short while. that gives time for cas to evade when they close.

Well I'm pretty sure your supposed to keep the laser on the target and shouldn't have to lead. Have a quick scan over these documents from thales see if it says anything. I'm at work so dont have the time to go over it.

Screenshot_20190507-183601_Dropbox.jpg

Screenshot_20190507-183705_Dropbox.jpg

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2 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

Well I'm pretty sure your supposed to keep the laser on the target and shouldn't have to lead. Have a quick scan over these documents from thales see if it says anything. I'm at work so dont have the time to go over it.

Screenshot_20190507-183601_Dropbox.jpg

Screenshot_20190507-183705_Dropbox.jpg

 

yea but its not what happens on the dev server.

 

check out the live stream they did, shows BVVD shooting a plane but has to give lead.

 

 

another thing i read is the optics is stabilized, but again in the dev server it wasnt.

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i think im making a bug report.

 

got it.

 

video from thales themselves:

 

 

Edited by zuadao

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It is SACLOS so no need to lead as you saw in the video that you posted. In the state we saw on the dev server, we may as well be using a blowpipe.

Edited by SgtStryker
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8 minutes ago, SgtStryker said:

It is SACLOS so no need to lead as you saw in the video that you posted. In the state we saw on the dev server, we may as well be using a blowpipe.

Heh blowpipe, basically star streak grand dad.

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Just looking at it the Stormer HVM we actually have in game should have fire and forget capability. If someone has video of the stormer HVM in game and can bug report that it's missing fire and forget capability.

Edited by *oppsijustkilledu
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i have a clog at home from the dev server ill present a bug report when i get home

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So in the case of a MILAN or Swingfire I have to lead even a relatively slow moving target like a Leo because they can't pull enough G to hit.

 

However in the case of the STARstreak, it is resonding to laser returns from the target, not being 'controlled' by the operator. So if you were to put the sight ahead of the target, it shouldn't hit as there is no laser return from fresh air. 

 

The key points are that the advanced laser has a bigger area so you should only have to keep the target in the sight, not with a point cross hair and the sub-munitions should be capable of pulling IRO 9G even at 7km out.  That should be enough to impact even a hard manouveing target.

 

 

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Screenshot_20190507-183601_Dropbox.thumb

 

just going to leave this here wasnt me that found this it was someone else but look at the stats this is from THALES themselves the maker of the starstreak missile and system. also i have played the thing aswell and on ai vehicles i had to lead the crosshares infront of the plane for the missile to hit didnt have it unlocked for playing against people as i couldnt unlock it within the time the dev server was up as i was tired and hit the hay

Edited by ScottishFalcon
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Lets stop with the constant bickering back and forth over tiny little details.  We all would appreciate it. 

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Hello all

 

Since there seems to be some confusion as to how Starstreak works IRL, here's a rundown:

 

Target Detection

 

The Air Defence Alerting Device (ADAD) is the rotating round thingie on top of the launcher. The signal processing electronics compare the infrared signature from one scan to the next, looking for moving objects that could indicate an aircraft. If a potential target is detected, one of the lamps in the circle (see image below) light up, indicating the direction of the target to the gunner.

 

ADAD.jpg

 

The ADAD is NOT part of the guidance system. As the name says, it merely alerts gunner to the possible presence of an aircraft. In the Stormer vehicle-mounted version, the ADAD can slew the sight (the box-like structure at the right front of the Stormer vehicle) in the direction of the target, but that is only to make it easier for the gunner to point the sight in the right direction. All ADAD really does is tell the gunner "hey, there's something over here you might want to take a look at".

 

Target Acquisition & Launch

 

Once the gunner has spotted the target in the sight he centers the cross-hairs on the target and start tracking (keeping the cross-hairs on the target) for a few seconds. If the sight is traversing fast (to track a target moving fast left-to-right or right-to-left) the launcher (the big box with eight missiles at the back of the vehicle) will lead the target. If the target is far away the gunner can also super-elevate (i.e. aim high) the launcher to preserve kinetic energy. Please note that all during the acquisition phase the gunner keeps the cross-hairs centered on the target and is not leading it.

 

Once this sequence is complete (in about 5 seconds) the gunner pulls the trigger and fires the missile. The first booster stage propels the missile from the launch canister and then fall away, at the same time triggering the second booster stage (see image below)

 

starstreak_hvm_b.jpg

 

The second stage booster then accelerates the missile to Mach 3+ (depending on sources the speed may be Mach 4+). Please note that while the rocket boosters are burning, no course adjustments are happening. The missile merely flies in whatever direction it had when it left the launcher.

 

Terminal Phase Guidance

As the second stage booster burns out the three darts at the tip of the missile are released and continue (unpowered) towards the target, about five feet apart from each other. At the back of each dart is a laser sensor looks back towards the launcher and sight and the laser emitter. What the dart "sees" is something like this:

 

Simulated-image-of-the-dazzle-field-caus

 

The sensor on the back of the dart can tell if it is in the center of the laser beam or off to the side. If off-center, course corrections are performed by the fins at the nose of the dart (the particular way this works is why the darts spiral during flight). The darts are literally "riding the laser beam" (hence the term laser beam riding). Unlike semi active laser homing (as used on the AGM-114 Hellfire missile or Paveway laser-guided bombs) the darts do NOT guide on laser energy reflected off the target. It is entirely indifferent if laser energy is reflected off the target or not. They indeed work exactly like wire-guided anti tank missiles (such as the BGM-71 TOW): The darts go wherever the sight is pointing and it's up to the gunner to keep the sight pointing at the target. Only the technology used to retain the missile in the line-of-sight differs.

 

During the entire sequence, the gunner keeps the crosshairs centered on the target*. If the gunner has to lead the target (if firing at the edge of the engagement envelope or against an extremely fast-moving target) the chances of a hit are dramatically reduced, to the point that the missile arguably shouldn't have been fired to begin with.

 

* Upgraded sights includes Automatic Target Tracking where the sight automatically tracks the infrared image of the target in similar manner to TV-guided or Imaging Infra Red guided munitions such as the AGM-62 Walleye or AGM-65 Maverick, or indeed most modern aircraft-mounted FLIR pods). Please note that is the sight that does the automatic target tracking; the darts still ride the laser beam as before.

 

Hopefully this clears up any confusion as to the IRL workings of Starstreak. I don't play tanks, so whether the vehicle now being tested in WT does it right, wrong or not-quite-right-but-good-enough is for someone else to decide.

Edited by krise_madsen
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