*tester188

[1.87.0.39] Incorrectly fixed Ho-103/Ho-104 ammo belt

1. The full name of the vehicle affected.

This issue affects all Japanese Army aircraft equipped with Ho-103 and Ho-104.

 

12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine gun is the main aircraft machine gun of Imperial Japanese Army Air Force in World War II, so it is equipped with many aircraft and it is greatly affected.

 

2. A detailed description of the issue you have or what you see as being erroneous regarding its representation in-game.

Ho-103 and Ho-104 are not correctly fixed according to the source of the bug report. WT's Ho-103 and Ho-104 ammunition only removes API-T and API from Italian Breda-SAFAT machine gun, copy-and-paste it. There is no Japanese ammunition. Regarding this issue, several bug reports have already been submitted, but they are incorrectly fixed and ignore history.

 

"We do not add historical Japanese ammunition to the game, but remove the non-historical API and API-T."

The decision of this developer is difficult to understand and can not be accepted.

 

I think that it is difficult for developers to fix Ho-103 ammunition for some reason.

For Ho-103 it may not be a confusion of historical sources but it may be a technical problem. War Thunder has been in service since 2012 OBT, Ho-103 has been in the game since then. Therefore, it may be difficult to change ammunition program code. In English books etc, Ho-103 explains that it was the same ammunition as Breda-SAFAT (This is not accurate). Because the developers programed so that Ho-103 and Breda-SAFAT could use the same ammunition in the game by believing these English books, changing Ho-103 ammunition to Japanese ammunition It may be difficult.

 

Since there is no official reply from GJ, I do not know at all what what interferes with the resolution of WT's Ho-103 ammunition problem.

 

3. Unless the data is taken from an official Gaijin statement, please provide a documented test and provide the Client Log from that session.

Preliminary patch notes:

  • Ho-103 and Ho-104 MGs — Ammo belt filling has been fixed.

 

I am seeking official GJ reply about Ho-103's ammunition issue, but I have not received a reply yet. I guess that it is difficult to answer for some reason.

 

I checked the ammunition belt. It remains an Italian ammo belt and there is no Type 1 AP-T, Ma-103 fuzed HE-I, Ma-102 fuzeless HE-I. These three kinds of bullets were used for actual battle.

Spoiler

XB2gfe5.jpg

 

tnZxJhq.jpg

 

werBhrE.jpg

 

7zVJOd2.jpg

 

VJFr5PS.jpg

 

Turret

34o827Y.jpg

 

Xcmhe3h.jpg

 

FZ7OsI3.jpg

 

Client Log

2019_03_07_08_41_01__4384.clog

 

4. A detailed description of the fix you suggest. Provide sources including reference that underline your position. This is up to the discretion of the Technical Moderator handling the report, however the number of sources required depends on the type of source presented:

Please release the progress of the bug report on Ho-103 ammunition. If you can not change Ho-103 ammunition to Japanese ammunition due to technical problems, please explain about it. If there is a reply, we can suggest alternative solutions. If you do not tell the incompletely fixed reasons, players will not know anything and are uneasy.

 

Source

Source believes that already submitted bug reports are sufficient.

 

Additional sources

#1 Allied intelligence report:

Spoiler

9h7ESqe.jpg

 

jNGfGLu.jpg

Manual on Japanese aircraft, TAIC No. 1, July 1945. Report No. 9-a(43), USSBS Index Section 6. FN 180.
http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/4009755/180?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F4009755&contentNo=180&__lang=en

 

#2 Book:

Imperial Japanese Army Air Force had its own superior incendiary bullet. The Allied intelligence repeats the allegation that it is a copy of a foreign country, but this evaluation is not fair. There are Japanese incendiary ammo even without Italian AP-I and API-T.

Spoiler

b5FPHtM.jpg

 

BtJqa4I.jpg

Incendiary Ammunition for Aircraft Machine Gun

航空機関銃用焼夷弾

 

pEyEd3p.jpg

 

In the air combat of Second Sino-Japanese War and Pacific War, most enemy aircraft were shot down by burning. I believe that you have already seen this fact with photos and paintings.

The cause of the crash by burning is mostly due to the effects of incendiary ammunition for aircraft.

This aircraft incendiary bullet was also used a little during World War I. However, after that, in foreign countries it seemed to forget it, and it was hardly studied.

The plane gradually became bigger and more durable. The age came when an airplane never crashes even if several ordinary bullets of an aircraft machine gun penetrate. In each country, it became crazy about the direction of research and recruitment of aircraft cannon etc. with larger caliber.

Our Imperial Japanese Army Air Force also conducted research on aircraft guns with large caliber. Apart from that, we were secretly holding research and improvement of aircraft incendiary bullets, so I was confident at the earliest on this.

This excellent aircraft incendiary bullet was completed in 1929 and is called "Type 89 aircraft cartridge".

 

Well, we confidently used this aircraft incendiary bullet in the Second Sino-Japanese War. The result was as expected and a wonderful achievement. Most enemy aircraft burned in the air and crashed. 

Countries that had been thinking about increasing the caliber of machine guns for aircraft until that time saw the results of the Japanese incendiary round in the Second Sino-Japanese War and began to review this.


支那事変でも、大東亜戦争でも、空中戦闘で、敵機はたいてい焼き落とされていることは、すでに諸君が写真や絵によって、見ておられることと思う。
この焼け落ちる原因は、航空機用焼夷弾によるものが大部分である。
この航空機焼夷弾は、第一次世界大戦の頃にも少し用いられたが、その後は外国ではこれを忘れたようになり、別に研究もせずにそのままにされていたものである。
飛行機の構造がしだいに大きく、また、だんだん丈夫になるにしたがい、航空機用機関銃の普通の弾が数発ぐらい貫通しても、飛行機は墜落せぬという時代が来ると、各国とも、もっと口径の大きな航空機関砲などの研究、採用という方面に夢中になり出した。

ところが、わが陸軍航空部隊では、口径の大きな航空機関砲の研究も行ったが、別に航空機焼夷弾の研究と改善をひそかにやっていたので、これについては、早くから自信を持っていたのであった。
この優秀な航空機焼夷弾が完成したのは、今から14年前の昭和4年で、八九式航空機用実包というのがこれである。

 

さて、十分に自信のあるこの航空機用焼夷弾を、支那事変に使用したところが、思った通り、敵機はほとんど空中火災を起こして、落ちていくという好成績を得た。
とくに大型爆撃機は、翼の中にも揮発油槽がたくさんあるので、いっそう有効なのである。それまで航空機用機関銃砲の口径を、大きくすることばかり考えていた各国は、支那事変における日本のこの焼夷弾の成績を見て、はじめてこれを見直すようになった。

 

1sbDABR.jpg

 

Around the Second Sino-Japanese War, discussions on machine guns for aircraft came about. I was the person involved.
"In the United States already adopting XX mm automatic cannon."
"Soviet aircraft are equipped with XX mm automatic cannon."
There were people who advised us a lot as if our IJAAF did not know a large caliber aircraft cannon or could not equip it.

In addition, these people introduced photographs of foreign aircraft machine cannons in their book and conducted propaganda as if the foreign country were better.

But we already know such a propaganda and said, "In our Empire of Japan, we should proceed with our own policies and confidence."

It has emerged as a result of incendiary ammunition for aircraft machine guns since the Second Sino-Japanese War.

 

この問題については、私も一部の関係者であったが、支那事変頃まではよく、

「アメリカではすでに何ミリ機関砲を採用しているぞ。」とか、

「ソビエトでは何ミリ機関砲を装備するようになった。」

などといって、まるでわが陸軍航空隊部隊が、口径の大きい航空機関砲に気がつかぬか、あるいはまた、装備ができないかのように、いろいろと忠告してくれる人々があった。

また、これらの人のあらわした書物に、外国の航空機関砲の写真までものせ、いかに外国が発達しているかのように、物しり顔に宣伝せられたものである。
しかし、私ども当事者は、そんなことぐらい百も承知の上で、

「わが帝国は、わが帝国の方針と自信で進めばよろしい。」
という考えで進んで来たのである。それが支那事変以来の、航空機関銃用焼夷弾の成果となって現れてきたのである。

航空部隊二十年 (Air Force 20 years). Written by Imperial Japanese Army Colonel Shibata Shinsaburō. October 1943. (No ISBN). pp. 141-145.

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1720086/74?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F1720086&contentNo=74&__lang=en

 

War Thunder is a cool combat flight simulator that respects history. But it is difficult for me to understand why Ho-103 ammunition is confused like this.

 

Thank you.

Edited by *tester188
Add Japanese source
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Fix suggestion

I would like to suggest to developers to return AP-I and API-T to Ho-103/Ho-104 as a compromise solution. This saves the most time and money, and most players will be able to tolerate it. Removal of Italian ammunition should be done after the preparation for adding Japanese ammunition is complete.

 

If this problem can not be solved in the bug report section, I will escalate the discussion to @Smin1080p in accordance with the forum guidelines.

Edited by *tester188
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Thank you again for your very hard work!

 

I will look over this and past reports.  We are aware of issues of belting.

 

==================

I think we did not write clear report to Dev about how to fix, unfortunately.

 

The issue:

Italian ammo removed, but Japanese version not added.

 

Correct:

Add Japanese ammo now.

(alternate: Keep the Italian ammo until Japanese is read to replace)

 

Missing ammo for Ho-103 and Ho-104 is:

AP-T - Type 1 Armor-piercing Tracer Cartridge (一式曳光徹甲弾)
    Projectile Mass: 36.50 g
    Muzzle Velocity: 780 m/s
    Armor penetration: 12 mm at 300 m, 10 mm at 700 m

HE-I - Ma-103 High-explosive Cartridge (Fuzed HE-I) (マ一〇三 榴弾)
    Projectile Mass: approximately 36.59 g
    Muzzle Velocity: 780 m/s
    Explosive type: RDX + Incendiary composition
    Explosive mass: approximately  0.6 g + 1.45 g

HE-I - Ma-102 Special Incendiary Cartridge (Fuzeless HE-I) (マ一〇二 特殊焼夷弾)
    Projectile Mass: approximately 36.30 g
    Muzzle Velocity: 780 m/s
    Explosive type: RDX + PETN + Incendiary composition
    Explosive mass: approximately 0.96 g + 0.96 g + 1.46 g

 

The Japanese Ball and AP round is correct? @*tester188

 

Full list of types is:

  • Ball (Type 1)
  • AP (Type 1)
  • AP-T (Type 1)
  • HE-I (Ma-103 fused) 2.05g explosive (IAI?)
  • HE-I (Ma-102 fuseless) 3.38g explosive

 

Any more ammo types missing?

 

The Type 1 MG (Ho-103/104) was a direct copy of the US .50 Browning (Cart: 12.7x99mm), but decided to design the cartridge by the Italian Breda (12.7x81mm) design.  Japan made cartridge themselves, not purchase.

 

Compare to Italian ammo:

 

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Hi, @Pony51,
Thank you as always.
I prepared materials very quickly.

 

Full list of types is:

  • Ball (Type 1)  <- For training
  • AP (Type 1)    <- made in Italy
  • AP-T (Type 1)
  • HE-I (Ma-103 fused) 2.05g explosive (IAI?)
  • HE-I (Ma-102 fuseless) 3.38g explosive

 

AP is an Italian bullet. AP is not produced in Japan.

Ammunition production record:

Spoiler

FowivFU.jpg

 

wQ6BC0Q.jpg

 

56fO0bb.jpg

Monthly Weapons Production Status Survey Table 1941 to 1945. Issued by Ministry of the Army (Japan). Around 1945 after the end of the war. p. 4 (PDF).

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/image-en/C14011034000 

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/image-en/C14011034700

 

Ball (Type 1) is for training.

Book:

Spoiler

x3YJlXQ.jpg

 

7CodYrL.jpg

 

Ball is a bullet that covered lead with nickel just like a ground troops machine gun. In aircraft machine guns, ball is cheap in price so we will use it only for training.
普通弾というのは陸軍の機関銃と同じような鉛類にニッケルをかぶせたもので航空機用では之は価が廉いため平時の練習用に用いるだけであります。

空中戦闘の話 (Talk of Air Combat). Written by Imperial Japanese Army Colonel Shibata Shinsaburō. June 1942. (No ISBN). p. 74.

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1169439/46?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F1169439&amp;contentNo=46&amp;__lang=en

 

12.7x81SR cartridge originated from the UK Vickers, the explanation of Italian made copy may not necessarily be accurate.

Website:

Spoiler

The Semi Rimmed 'Export' Cartridge and its Guns

Vickers may not have had much success in selling their big gun to the RAF but it attracted foreign interest. The British Government didn't like Vickers selling their latest equipment abroad so Vickers slightly modified the cartridge case to make it semi-rimmed, giving the designation 12.7x81SR; this variant being developed as early as 1923. Vickers knew the cartridge as the .5"V/565 as their standard bullet for it weighed 565 grains (36.5 grams) with a 2,490 fps (760 m/s) muzzle velocity. Bullet types developed for this cartridge included Ball, AP, AP-T, 'Flame Tracer', and 'Smoke Tracer / Incendiary' (similar to the Buckingham type used in the .303 B Mk IV).

 

Some 65 Vickers aircraft guns in this calibre were bought by Japan and 49 by Siam (Thailand) but it is not clear whether or not any service use was made of them.

 

The Italians also used the cartridge in their own 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT and Scotti aircraft guns.  The short-recoil Breda-SAFAT was not a sparkling performer, weighing 64 lbs (29 kg) and firing at 700 rpm, but it was the standard Italian fixed aircraft gun at the start of the Second World War, two synchronised guns normally being mounted in the cowling of single-engined fighters. The gas/blowback Scotti fired no faster, but  did weigh only 51 lbs (23 kg). It seemed to be more highly regarded, but was primarily, if not solely, used in flexible mountings.

 

The Italians developed various different loadings for the semi-rimmed cartridge, including Tracer, AP, API, API-T, I-T, and (famously) HE and HEI-T. The HE contained around 12.3 grains (0.8 g) of Penthrite wax.

The Japanese Army became interested in the Breda-SAFAT and in particular its explosive shells, and considered adopting the gun. In the end they did adopt the cartridge but developed their own, superior, aircraft gun, the 12.7 mm Ho-103 (based on a smaller version of the .50 Browning M2) to use it. This fired at 900 rpm and weighed only 48 lbs (22 kg). They also developed their own HE ammunition as well as using the Italian designs.

 

Some British and Italian-produced ammunition is shown on the right.

The headstamps for these cartridges are shown below and the key to them is on the right:

THE .5" VICKERS GUNS AND AMMUNITION. © Anthony G Williams. Amended November 2012

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers.html

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@*tester188

 

So, did Japan make (produce) the Italian AP round in Japan?

 

All other ammo is Japan design?

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1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

So, did Japan make (produce) the Italian AP round in Japan?

I think that Japanese do not make AP. It is an imported item.

 

1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

All other ammo is Japan design?

Yes, all other ammo is Japanese design.

Edited by *tester188
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1 hour ago, *tester188 said:

I think that Japanese do not make AP. It is an imported item.

 

Yes, other ammo is Japan design.

 

So desu.

I think this is smart of Japan to buy finished AP round because it has limited resources.  Japan imported 100,000's of tons of scrap metal because of limited steel in Japan.

HE is easier to make, it is less metal, easier to make metal parts (brass, copper).

 

5WkfuYr.jpg

Above data suggest the Ma-102 was designed to be simpler, lighter, and faster.  

102 round 508 gr = 32.92g  propellant = 8.55g

103 round 533 gr = 34.53g propellant = 8.23g

 

So Japan used these types:

  • Ball (Type 1)  <- For training
  • AP (Type 1)    <- Ferrari quality ammo from Italy   ;-)
  • AP-T (Type 1)  <- Japan made AP.
  • HE-I (Ma-103 fused) 2.05g explosive (IAI?)
  • HE-I (Ma-102 fuseless) 3.38g explosive

There is NO pure T (tracer) round?

 

 

Using belt samples GJ uses:   (Key: HE-I = Ma-102, IAI = Ma-103 )

Ho-103:

Default:  AP-T, Ball, Ball, Ball, IAI   (GJ use practice rounds for default belts in 7mm and 12.7mm)

Universal: AP-T, AP, HE-I, IAI

Air Target: AP-T, HE-I, IAI, HE-I

Tracer:    AP-T, AP-T, AP-T, AP-T

Stealth: AP, HE-I, AP, HE-I

 

Ho-104:

Default:  AP-T, Ball, HE-I, IAI

Armored Targets: AP-T, AP-T, AP-T, IAI

Universal: AP-T, AP, HE-I, IAI

 

 

I am aware of what you posted here, but does not look typical of what GJ uses.   

My list above is what I think is close to how GJ makes loads.

Please, if you think a better list, suggest an alternate.

 

And yes, the US .50 does have pure tracer

 

 

 

 

 

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I think there is no problem. Thank you.  :salute:

 

Small pointed out: AP(Type 1) -> AP(Type I)

Italian bullets were designated Type "I" (I = Italy). The Fiat BR.20 bomber that IJAAF imported from Italy was designated Type "I" Heavy Bomber. In conjunction with Fiat BR.20, Breda-SAFAT machine guns and ammunition were imported.

Spoiler

 

 

Tracer

According to the ammunition production record of tracer round production was stopped in 1941.

Spoiler

LLht73L.jpg

 

RJpyRSR.jpg

Amount of arms, shells, and motor vehicles production chart. Report No. 45q(14), USSBS Index Section 2. p. 8. 

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8818497?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F8818497&amp;__lang=en

 

Reference on the damage model of HE-I.

About Ma-103 fuzed HE-I

At the time of severe cold, Yellow Phosphorus incendiary bullets have a lower incendiary effect, but Ma-103 fuzed HE-I exerts a good incendiary effect.

Test report:

Spoiler

vZfX521.jpg

 

AYke27y.jpg

 

N5WoyVq.jpg

 

Test the trail smoke and incendiary efficacy of the 7.92 mm Type 92 improvement incendiary cartridge and 12.7 mm incendiary cartridge and the incendiary efficacy of "Ma-103" during severe cold.
酷寒時ニ於ケル焼夷実包7.92mm焼夷実包及12.7mm焼夷実包ノ曳煙及焼夷効力並ニ「マ一〇三」ノ焼夷効力ヲ試験スルニ在リ

 

1, 7.92 mm Type 92 improvement incendiary cartridge and 12.7 mm incendiary cartridge at severe cold (about −25 °C or lower), the incendiary efficacy and trail smoke dropped sharply.
一、改正九二式焼夷実包7.92mm焼夷実包及12.7mm焼夷実包ニ対スル酷寒 (概ネ-25度以下) ノ影響ハ頗ル大ニシテ曳煙及焼夷効力共ニ著シク低下ス

 

7qwLXK9.jpg

 

2, "Ma-103" was confirmed that the incendiary effect was good, and the power did not decrease even during severe cold.

二、「マ一〇三」ノ焼夷効力ハ良好ニシテ酷寒時ニ際シテモ威力ハ低下セザルモノト認ム

"Ma-103" Winter Test Report (「マ一〇三」冬季試験記事). Issued by Army Aviation Technology Institute (陸軍航空技術研究所). February 1942.

(Army engineering survey Part 4 "A summary of research (investigation) report out side the government service" (1.2.4 - 6 files). Issued by 2nd Department, Special Bureau of Technology. pp. 36-37 PDF) 

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/meta-en/A03032312200

 

Damage test on a boat by aircraft machine gun:

Spoiler

ULmk6lg.jpg

 

npheO5L.jpg

 

Ammunition used for testing is Type 1 HE (Ma-103 fuzed HE-I) (12.7 mm aircraft machine gun (Ho-103)) and Type 2 HE (20 mm Type 2 (Ho-5) aircraft cannon).

使用弾ハ一式榴弾 (航空機用十二・七粍機関砲弾薬)及び二式榴弾(二式軽量二十粍機関砲弾薬)トス

 

Bullet holes in the case of shooting the 3.2mm mild steel plate. Using 13 mm HE and 20 mm HE.

三・二粍軟鋼板ノ二十粍及び十三粍榴弾ニ依ル弾痕

 

hbAsavo.jpg

 

OD03yf3.jpg

 

NP8lRYX.jpg

 

W6zd5Q5.jpg

3rd Technical Research Center report No. 148 Report on study about boat bullet hole emergency countermeasure April 10, 1944. pp. 3, 12, 16, 20, 23.

JACAR (Japan Center for Asian Historical Records) Ref.C14020309000

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/meta-en/C14020309000

 

In this topic, there is a player explaining about delay fuse of Ma-103. He was a Senior Tech Mod familiar with Japanese aircraft.

 

About Ma-102 fuzeless HE-I

I think that Special incendiary bullet (fuzeless HE-I) is an interesting ammunition. United States Strategic Bombing Survey highly evaluates this Japanese ammunition. Ammunition in other countries close to the design of fuzeless HE-I is Raufoss Mk 211. 50 caliber (12.7 × 99 mm NATO) multipurpose anti-matériel high-explosive incendiary/armor-piercing ammunition projectile. Raufoss Mk 211 is fuzeless, but it is pyrotechnically initiated fuze of RDX or PETN. Likewise, the Japanese special incendiary (fuzeless HE-I) is also pyrotechnically initiated fuze of RDX + PETN. The special incendiary bullet (fuzeless HE-I) demonstrated high incendiary effect on aircraft fuel tanks. It also showed a burning effect against US B-17 and B-24, which are rugged designs with self-sealing fuel tanks.

 

Raufoss Mk 211 .50 caliber MP fuzeless HEIAP

Spoiler

xnHgg0t.jpg

 

Special incendiary Ma fuzeless HE-I

Spoiler

xgY0lS1.jpg

 

In the bug report previously supported by Pony51, there is information on 7.7 mm fuzeless HE-I.

 

USSBS report:

Spoiler

MzrT7p5.jpg

 

Ow5GDJA.jpg

 

KVE2Wtr.jpg

 

hOa3trw.jpg

Japanese Air Weapons and Tactics (final report and original draft). Report No. 63, USSBS Index Section 2, January 1947. Page 34-36, 41.

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8821500?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F8821500&__lang=en

 

Raufoss Mk 211

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Raufoss_NM140_MP_(en).svg

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mk211.htm

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1628

Edited by *tester188
Typo: 求ム -> 認ム
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There is NO pure T (tracer) round?
I have no Idea about how devs made the pure T round. I can say it is just a made-up bullet, there is a greater chance of the replacement for the removed API-T.
I didn't find any of shipments on 国立公文書館   アジア歴史資料センター (National archive of japan). This is the results I serched. these shipment orders are all about ma-102 and ma-103, and 一式曳光徹甲弾(ap-t). These documents didn't mention It.

Sorry, I'm really sorry. I didn't check the old papers.

Edited by pentolite
my brain has stopped working
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On 09/03/2019 at 23:31, *tester188 said:

I think there is no problem. Thank you.  :salute:

 

Small pointed out: AP(Type 1) -> AP(Type I)

Italian bullets were designated Type "I" (I = Italy). The Fiat BR.20 bomber that IJAAF imported from Italy was designated Type "I" Heavy Bomber. In conjunction with Fiat BR.20, Breda-SAFAT machine guns and ammunition were imported.

  Hide contents

 

 

 

So I am not 100% correct.  :(

 

Adding in the purchase of BR.20 makes sense.

Late 1937 Japan purchased 78 unit, armed with Breda-SAFAT 12.7mg's and ammunition.

January 1938 Japan began development of Ho-103

Spoiler

In January of 1938 the design of the Japanese Army Type 1 (HO-103) 12.7mm ACMG originated in the Laboratory of Chuo Kogyo Kabushiki Kaisha, Ltd., in the Kokubunji Factory located in Hondashinden, Kokubunji-machi, Kitatama-Gun, Tokyo-To, and in December of that year a first model was tested. Initial production of the Type 1 (HO-103) ACMG did not begin at the Kokubunji Factory until 1940 however, and only 10 guns were produced in that year, according to company records. Presumably production of the gun was begun in the Yanazu Factory of Nagoya Army Arsenal at about this same time, but this presumption is yet unconfirmed by documentation or by actual guns specimens examined to date. Certainly by 1941 the Type 1 (HO-103) ACMG was in full scale production at both manufacturing sites and the gun was being installed regularly as principal armament in combat aircraft, even though the gun's design was not perfected. Testing and design development of the Type 1 (HO-103) ACMG began shortly after the design's inception by the Army's Air Technical Laboratory at Tachikawa and continued until war's end. As problems encountered with parts design and gun functioning were surmounted, they were replaced with problems caused by shortage of raw materials. Despite the many problems, meticulous field maintenance of the guns coupled with regular replacement of worn and fatigued parts made the Type 1 (HO-103) ACMG a successful design and an effective first-line weapon. 

Early 1938 BR.20 used in China against enemies.

 

There is a historical context of using the Italian ammo but use superior MG (Browning) design to make the the Ho-103, and with it a new ammo that is unique.

 

Correct full list of types is:

  • Ball (Type 1) (1941 in production)
  • AP (Type I)
  • AP-T (Type 1) (1941 in production)
  • HE-I (Ma-103 fused) 2.05g explosive (IAI?)
  • HE-I (Ma-102 fuseless) 3.38g explosive - Self-destruct

 

I did not notice before, but the holes in the Ma-102 insure the round would explode after a time delay.

Spoiler

xgY0lS1.jpg

 

 

The Ma-102 is completely different than any HE round Italy uses (this page has list, perhaps all Italy made.)

And as you point out, perhaps different any any used at that time.

 

Ma-102 would detonate by either impact, and by time delay.  This certainly cannot be an IAI type, as first I is "immediate".

May need a Bug Report just on this round...

Edited by Pony51
fixed error in date, 1939 to 1938
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Maybe nobody cares about it, I type = 伊号 : いごう (igou). Japanese people pronounce Italy as イタリア(e ta ri ah) in old japanese writing.
In my opinion, I isn't i... It is E. sorry for the off-topic post. Anyway "I type" is right.
 

Edited by pentolite
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14 minutes ago, pentolite said:

Maybe nobody cares about it, I type = 伊号 : いごう (igou). Japanese people pronounce Italy as イタリア(e ta ri ah) in old japanese writing.
In my opinion, I isn't i... It is E. sorry for the off-topic post. Anyway "I type" is right.

 

I speak a little Japanese, and while Japanese enunciation of alphabet is not the same as Western (thus called Romanji), in the end they use Latin alphabet in writing.

(hope I did not confuse anyone, even myself)

 

Back to topic...

 

 

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IAI at War Thunder is a bullet with many mysteries.

 

Russian IAI (MDZ) is an internal air compresion fuze, but if the designer does not devise, it should be super sensitive and super quick fuze.

http://www.russianammo.org/Russian_Ammunition_Page_145mm.html

 

Japanese also developed air compresion fuze. It is also called firing-pinless fuze. Japanese also developed a low sensitivity air compresion fuze.

 

Looking at ammunition production records, air compresion fuze for Ho-103 was not mass-produced, but air compresion fuze was mass-produced for 20 mm Ho-5 cannon.

 

I looked up information on Japanese air compresion fuze before. 

 

20 mm Ho-5 cannon (ホ五)

Ma-202 Special incendiary shell (マ二〇二 特殊焼夷弾)
Ma-205 Super-sensitive air compresion fuzed high-explosive shell (マ二〇五 鋭敏性空気信管付榴弾)
Ma-206 Super-detonation air compresion fuzed high-explosive shell (マ二〇六 剛発性空気信管付榴弾)

 

12.7 mm Ho-103 machine gun (ホ一〇三)

Ma-102 Special incendiary bullet (マ一〇二 特殊焼夷弾)

Ma-103 High-explosive bullet (マ一〇三 榴弾)
Ma-105 Super-sensitive air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet (マ一〇五 鋭敏性空気信管付榴弾)
Ma-106 Super-detonation air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet (マ一〇六 剛発性空気信管付榴弾)

 

航空機用機関砲及弾薬略号 昭和19年7月現在 (Aircraft Machine Cannon and Ammunition Code Name Table, July 1944)

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/image-en/C14010984100

 

Air compresion fuze is designated as "Type 4". Therefore Ma-206 is also called Type 4 shell.

TM 9-1985-5; Type 4 Super Detonating Fuze

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_5/Chap04/Section04/FIG_319.HTM

 

In the Allied Forces intelligence it seems that Ma-206 is designated as "D" fuze HE-I.

Japanese ammunition data, 20 MM, 1 July 1945. Report No. 12-b(51), USSBS Index Section 6

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/4009974/12?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F4009974&amp;contentNo=12&amp;__lang=en

 

Besides Japan and Russia I think that Britain also developed air compresion fuze. Japanese researchers were also researching, but there is a story that captured the air compresion fuze from British fighters and completed the research promptly.

 

I thank @ARADO_AKBAR for the information provider.

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32 minutes ago, *tester188 said:

Ma-105 Super-sensitive air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet (マ一〇五 鋭敏性空気信管付榴弾)
Ma-106 Super-detonation air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet (マ一〇六 剛発性空気信管付榴弾)

 

We can use to argue to GJ not to use IAI then.

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8 hours ago, *tester188 said:

Ma-105 Super-sensitive air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet (マ一〇五 鋭敏性空気信管付榴弾)
Ma-106 Super-detonation air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet (マ一〇六 剛発性空気信管付榴弾)

@*tester188

What is the difference between Ma-105 and Ma-106?

Edited by Type61mod5J
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12 hours ago, Type61mod5J said:

What is the difference between Ma-105 and Ma-106?

Would be nice for a thread on this in Japanese Aircraft.

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剛発性 = Low sensitivity, delayed. 空気信管 = air compresion fuze. 剛発性空気信管 would be low sensitivity air compresion fuze with a thick tip.
"Super-detonation" aren't good words for explaining, it should be "Low-sensitive" or something else.
I prefer "Ma-106 Low-sensitive delayed air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet" to " Ma-106 Super-detonation air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet"
I saw its sotry on somewhere. Japanese searchers picked british air compresion fuzed 20mm HE bullet, and the guy noticed the thickness of the tip. They got idea of 剛発性空気信管 from british 20mm. That's all I know.

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2 hours ago, pentolite said:

剛発性 = Low sensitivity, delayed. 空気信管 = air compresion fuze. 剛発性空気信管 would be low sensitivity air compresion fuze with a thick tip.

 

I think it is correct.

 

Gōhatsu (剛発) is a Japanese word that is not used much, but Eibin (鋭敏) is often used. 

https://jisho.org/search/鋭敏

https://jisho.org/search/剛発

 

I think that the fuse is high sensitivity or low sensitivity depending on the thickness of air column closing disk.

 

Example of air column fuse

20mm Hispano cannon:

Spoiler

HdcykhZ.png

http://bulletpicker.com/pd_-mk-26-mod-0-2.html

 

20 mm Ho-5 cannon:

Spoiler

HmwY4z6.jpg

 

N8UCpmF.jpg

Japanese ammunition data, 20 MM, 1 July 1945. Report No. 12-b(51), USSBS Index Section 6

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/4009974/24?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F4009974&amp;contentNo=24&amp;__lang=en

 

The low sensitivity fuse will not explode with the skins of the aircraft and will penetrate the thin duralmin plate and damage the internal modules. This bug report was not about the air column fuse, so it takes a while to put together the source.

Edited by *tester188
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1 hour ago, pentolite said:

剛発性 = Low sensitivity, delayed. 空気信管 = air compresion fuze. 剛発性空気信管 would be low sensitivity air compresion fuze with a thick tip.
"Super-detonation" aren't good words for explaining, it should be "Low-sensitive" or something else.
I prefer "Ma-106 Low-sensitive delayed air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet" to " Ma-106 Super-detonation air compresion fuzed high-explosive bullet"
I saw its sotry on somewhere. Japanese searchers picked british air compresion fuzed 20mm HE bullet, and the guy noticed the thickness of the tip. They got idea of 剛発性空気信管 from british 20mm. That's all I know.

 

16 minutes ago, Type61mod5J said:

@pentolite

Ma-106 has lower fuse sensitivity than Ma-103 and Ma-105. That is, is it okay to recognize a system like a delay fuse?

 

@*tester188

 

This information is best put in Japan Aircraft section.


Please contribute to this new post.

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@*tester188, in old report on the Ho-104 ammo you said:

Quote

Within the current game, Ho-103 removes API-T and AP-I from Breda and copies it, and Ho-104 is simply copied from Breda.

 

You mean to say the Japanese turrets copy the belt from Italian turrets?

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38 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

@*tester188, in old report on the Ho-104 ammo you said:

 

You mean to say the Japanese turrets copy the belt from Italian turrets?

 

Pony51, Maybe there is a misunderstanding.

 

Both fighters and bombers need Japanese ammunition. In the game, both fighters and bombers just removed AP-I and API-T from Italian ammunition. There is no Japanese ammunition.

 

Before Update 1.75, Ho-103 / Ho-104 was a simple copy and paste of Italian ammunition. A bug report was submitted requesting a change to Japanese ammunition, but it was incorrectly fixed. The developer has removed the AP-I and API-T from Ho-103 for fighters with update 1.75. The developer just forgot the AP-I and API-T from the Ho-103/Ho-104 for the turret. Removed AP-I and API-T from Ho-103/Ho-104 for Turret with Update 1.87.

 

Both Ho-103 for fighters and Ho-103/Ho-104 for turrets also require Japanese ammunition.

 

Update 1.75 "La Résistance"!

Ho-103 ammo belts have been corrected (source).

 

 Update1.87 “Lock on!”

Ho-103 and Ho-104 MGs — Ammo belt filling has been fixed.

Edited by *tester188
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1 hour ago, *tester188 said:

The developer just forgot the AP-I and API-T from the Ho-103/Ho-104 for the turret.

 

That is what I was verifying.

All good.

 

I do have another question:

 

The Japanese never made a simple Tracer round.  Not an AP with Tracer (AP-T), just a Tracer (large quantity of tracer fuel).

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31 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

That

All good.

 

Thank you.

 

31 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

I do have another question:

 

The Japanese never made a simple Tracer round.  Not an AP with Tracer (AP-T), just a Tracer (large quantity of tracer fuel).

 

About Tracer round, I already explained, was it insufficient?

 

The Japanese made Tracer for Ho-103, but ended in 1941 with a few productions. They used AP-T in a real air battle.

 

Is my understanding of this English correct?

Tracing shell = Tracer round

On 10/03/2019 at 14:31, *tester188 said:

Tracer

According to the ammunition production record of tracer round production was stopped in 1941.

  Reveal hidden contents

LLht73L.jpg

 

RJpyRSR.jpg

Amount of arms, shells, and motor vehicles production chart. Report No. 45q(14), USSBS Index Section 2. p. 8. 

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8818497?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F8818497&amp;__lang=en

 

I will provide additional source for Tracer round of Ho-103 if necessary.

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20 minutes ago, *tester188 said:

About Tracer round, I already explained, was it insufficient?

 

The Japanese made Tracer for Ho-103, but ended in 1941 with a few productions. They used AP-T in a real air battle.

 

No, it is good.  I am looking at many pages of data, and missed this detail.

The image says "70 T", or "T 70", I could not find what this means.

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