Stona

Server Update 11.02.2019

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Regarding the removed. Ha-Go, FCM 36 and H.35. We will have some news to share on them in the future as well as the possibility of their return / obtainment. 

 

The developers are currently hard at work on the current change and we will have further updates and news to share in the near future. 

 

Thank you all for your continued feedback. We are still reviewing and passing daily :salute:

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Hi again.

 

I did some thinkering on  y own, I am sure it is not perfect but it is food for thoughts on upcoming BR changes on top tier tanks. I have looked at the penetration of ammo mostly and some on the armour and speed of the vehicle. Yes Centauro Romor, i am looking at you :D. Please keep in mind that i do not have any of these tanks my self so i am only going after stats. I have no favourites to date.This might need to be moved up or down one step after new battle stats gets done but it is a start.

 

USA: Abrams M1, IPM1, XM1, XM807, MBT70 all goes to 8,7-9,0 They are now more or less equal to the M60 A1 RISE

Germany: Leo2K and Leo 2A4 both drops to 9,3

USSR: T80B and T64B will be 10,0. T64A will be 9,7. T72A and T62 M-1 will be 9,3

Britain: Chieftain mk 10 goes to 9,0, that things speed is to slow for anything else. Challenger mk2 and mk3 goes to 9,3.

Japan: Type 90 stays at 10,0. Sadly Japan has no more top tiers yet.

Italy: OF 40 Mk 2A stays at 8,7 and i think the Centauro ROMOR stays at 9,3 or possibly moves up to 9,7. It does not have the pen to move to 9,7 but it´s speed is so high that it will outflank anything on the battlefield.

France: AMX-40 goes to 10,0  because of the penetration.

 

Also a couple of thoughts.

1:America and Germany should now be able to fight on the same side again since USA is not at all OP any more. This will give the Fulda map some proper use as well.

2: USSR can not fight on the same side as Japan and France any more. They are the only nations with tier 10 tanks and would be to OP together. It is also historically correct if you look at USSR and Japan since those two countries never fought on the same side. Well they did during WW1 but then USSR was Russia and we do not fight WW1 in game ;).

Have a good time all!

 

//Wulferine

 

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22 minutes ago, Wulferine said:

Hi again.

 

I did some thinkering on  y own, I am sure it is not perfect but it is food for thoughts on upcoming BR changes on top tier tanks. I have looked at the penetration of ammo mostly and some on the armour and speed of the vehicle. Yes Centauro Romor, i am looking at you :D. Please keep in mind that i do not have any of these tanks my self so i am only going after stats. I have no favourites to date.This might need to be moved up or down one step after new battle stats gets done but it is a start.

 

USA: Abrams M1, IPM1, XM1, XM807, MBT70 all goes to 8,7-9,0 They are now more or less equal to the M60 A1 RISE

Germany: Leo2K and Leo 2A4 both drops to 9,3

USSR: T80B and T64B will be 10,0. T64A will be 9,7. T72A and T62 M-1 will be 9,3

Britain: Chieftain mk 10 goes to 9,0, that things speed is to slow for anything else. Challenger mk2 and mk3 goes to 9,3.

Japan: Type 90 stays at 10,0. Sadly Japan has no more top tiers yet.

Italy: OF 40 Mk 2A stays at 8,7 and i think the Centauro ROMOR stays at 9,3 or possibly moves up to 9,7. It does not have the pen to move to 9,7 but it´s speed is so high that it will outflank anything on the battlefield.

France: AMX-40 goes to 10,0  because of the penetration.

 

Also a couple of thoughts.

1:America and Germany should now be able to fight on the same side again since USA is not at all OP any more. This will give the Fulda map some proper use as well.

2: USSR can not fight on the same side as Japan and France any more. They are the only nations with tier 10 tanks and would be to OP together. It is also historically correct if you look at USSR and Japan since those two countries never fought on the same side. Well they did during WW1 but then USSR was Russia and we do not fight WW1 in game ;).

Have a good time all!

 

//Wulferine

 

So just because the penetration of some shells got nerfed, you think the vehicle deserves a -1.0 BR? Try to play any 8.0 and kill abrams reliably...

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the gun discussion aside (sorry gaijin you can't claim historical accuracy if you ignore the historical data). can anyone explain why the h39 cambrone a tank identical to what is now a reserve tank has been left @1.3?

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54 minutes ago, VILLICY said:

So just because the penetration of some shells got nerfed, you think the vehicle deserves a -1.0 BR? Try to play any 8.0 and kill abrams reliably...

Hi.

No i do not think it will be easy to kill Abrams with 8.0 tanks. But that is leading us into another question. Is the tier system correct in matchmaking I bet there is a forum for that too.

 

On the other hand i have seen some Sd.Kfz. 234/4 kill Abrams tanks when they have been dragged into 10,0 battles by friends. And the Sd.Kfz. 234/4 is not even close to be 8,0. It is not easy to kill a Maus with a Centurion mk3 either but it can be done.

 

In this game anything can kill anything (more or less) but according to Gaijin they are looking on ammo when it comes to balance. so i still think my input above is valid.

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I’m not opposed to the idea of using a formula (assuming it is sufficient to cover the many variables) to estimate pen rather than fighting with which source to believe.

 

However I’m greatly disappointed that such a potentially big change (big enough to force the removal of 3 tanks) did not go through the test server but was just pushed live.  Sets a dangerous precedent for other changes.

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What's the point of M22 going down to Tier 1? And why is a light tank in the Heavy tank line"? Also, I understand the importance of gathering data before implementing BR changes but what about the fact that some tanks are literally a nightmare to play if not downright unplayable? Do we stop playing because we can't enjoy it? Cuz then, how are you gonna get the data you want? I agree with Phly about utilizing the Dev Server more for such changes. o7.

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4 hours ago, Wulferine said:

Hi again.

 

I did some thinkering on  y own, I am sure it is not perfect but it is food for thoughts on upcoming BR changes on top tier tanks. I have looked at the penetration of ammo mostly and some on the armour and speed of the vehicle. Yes Centauro Romor, i am looking at you :D. Please keep in mind that i do not have any of these tanks my self so i am only going after stats. I have no favourites to date.This might need to be moved up or down one step after new battle stats gets done but it is a start.

 

USA: Abrams M1, IPM1, XM1, XM807, MBT70 all goes to 8,7-9,0 They are now more or less equal to the M60 A1 RISE

Germany: Leo2K and Leo 2A4 both drops to 9,3

USSR: T80B and T64B will be 10,0. T64A will be 9,7. T72A and T62 M-1 will be 9,3

Britain: Chieftain mk 10 goes to 9,0, that things speed is to slow for anything else. Challenger mk2 and mk3 goes to 9,3.

Japan: Type 90 stays at 10,0. Sadly Japan has no more top tiers yet.

Italy: OF 40 Mk 2A stays at 8,7 and i think the Centauro ROMOR stays at 9,3 or possibly moves up to 9,7. It does not have the pen to move to 9,7 but it´s speed is so high that it will outflank anything on the battlefield.

France: AMX-40 goes to 10,0  because of the penetration.

 

Also a couple of thoughts.

1:America and Germany should now be able to fight on the same side again since USA is not at all OP any more. This will give the Fulda map some proper use as well.

2: USSR can not fight on the same side as Japan and France any more. They are the only nations with tier 10 tanks and would be to OP together. It is also historically correct if you look at USSR and Japan since those two countries never fought on the same side. Well they did during WW1 but then USSR was Russia and we do not fight WW1 in game ;).

Have a good time all!

 

//Wulferine

 

The only part I will +1 is all NATO nations fighting together. I want realism now that it's not gonna affect balance. Not being able to squad up with my Leopard owner friend while playing the Abrams without waiting long for a mixed battle or having to play sim is not fun at all.

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Removal of the H.35 and FCM.36 is a welcome change, APCR with 36 mm of penetration was not enough even at BR 1.0. Not entirely sure why the H.39 was moved to 1.0 and not the R.39, the R.39 is worse than the H.39 in almost every way. The premium H.39 Cambronne is also still at 1.3.

 

The AMC 34 YR however now has 27 mm of penetration instead of 45 mm... that's 9 mm less than the gun on the tanks that were just removed for being too weak for BR 1.0... and 1 mm less than the APHE ammo those guns had.

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9 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

Guess what? Buff for AP and APCBC and Variants is welcome. But nerfing NATO APDSFS into oblivion (Abrams M774 350mm Flat Pen, DM 23 less flat pen than DM 13, 60° pen from 260! to 220!). Very weird that the M735 and DM 13 were not recaltulated as the remium Leo L44 and the XM 1 use it. And of course, not applying any BR/Ammo cost changes as well as buffing/nerfing round which were stated as having trustworthy documents and test to not be recalculated by this formula (originally they said that rounds with official/trustworthy documents won't be changed).

what buff are you talking about?

a lot of AP shells got messed up over this change, for example, US 76mm solid AP shell is worse in every aspect compared to the the M62 shell for the 76mm.

makes no sense whatsoever.

 

 

overall, this was horribly implemented and rushed, while not even being a good idea in general without rushing it.

gaijin is using a totally flawed and simplified version of a formula that needs base data of shell penetration in the first place.

but instead of using it right, they just made up some fantasy numbers for that base data(like seriously, a 100mm shell that goes 1900m/s but only pens 100mm of armor? what?) while also disregarding shell composition and shape, therefor all shells to which this formula was applied now have broken penetration values.

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I really would like to know what the reasoning behind removing the Ha Go, H35, and FCM36 was. I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the real world, these vehicles' guns had enough penetrating power to be useful (I think this applies most to the Ha Go). Removing them doesn't make sense, especially since they were fine both balance wise and historical accuracy wise before this patch. Honestly, removing them makes no sense. Even if they were useless, they were still fun. Not allowing new players access to these is sort of pointless, perhaps you could put them before other vehicles, and not counting towards tier 1 completion so that they could just be skipped over if a player so choses? 

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16 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

Guess what? Buff for AP and APCBC and Variants is welcome. But nerfing NATO APDSFS into oblivion (Abrams M774 350mm Flat Pen, DM 23 less flat pen than DM 13, 60° pen from 260! to 220!). Very weird that the M735 and DM 13 were not recaltulated as the remium Leo L44 and the XM 1 use it. 

M735 and DM13 are not monoblock so the calculation can't be used for it. 

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11 hours ago, Wulferine said:

Hi again.

 

I did some thinkering on  y own, I am sure it is not perfect but it is food for thoughts on upcoming BR changes on top tier tanks. I have looked at the penetration of ammo mostly and some on the armour and speed of the vehicle. Yes Centauro Romor, i am looking at you :D. Please keep in mind that i do not have any of these tanks my self so i am only going after stats. I have no favourites to date.This might need to be moved up or down one step after new battle stats gets done but it is a start.

 

USA: Abrams M1, IPM1, XM1, XM807, MBT70 all goes to 8,7-9,0 They are now more or less equal to the M60 A1 RISE

Germany: Leo2K and Leo 2A4 both drops to 9,3

USSR: T80B and T64B will be 10,0. T64A will be 9,7. T72A and T62 M-1 will be 9,3

Britain: Chieftain mk 10 goes to 9,0, that things speed is to slow for anything else. Challenger mk2 and mk3 goes to 9,3.

Japan: Type 90 stays at 10,0. Sadly Japan has no more top tiers yet.

Italy: OF 40 Mk 2A stays at 8,7 and i think the Centauro ROMOR stays at 9,3 or possibly moves up to 9,7. It does not have the pen to move to 9,7 but it´s speed is so high that it will outflank anything on the battlefield.

France: AMX-40 goes to 10,0  because of the penetration.

 

Also a couple of thoughts.

1:America and Germany should now be able to fight on the same side again since USA is not at all OP any more. This will give the Fulda map some proper use as well.

2: USSR can not fight on the same side as Japan and France any more. They are the only nations with tier 10 tanks and would be to OP together. It is also historically correct if you look at USSR and Japan since those two countries never fought on the same side. Well they did during WW1 but then USSR was Russia and we do not fight WW1 in game ;).

Have a good time all!

 

//Wulferine

 

Abrams at 9.0? That would be an absolutely horrifying thought. The XM-1 is bad enough at that BR, but if you had the normal Abrams, it would literally slaughter. Don't know what you're getting at but the Abrams received practically no change. M735 was unchanged and that was the only shell used by it anyway since noone wants to delete their SL with the M774. Also the tank got a small buff in the fact that DM23 120 mm can't even pen the turret anymore.

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12 hours ago, VILLICY said:

So just because the penetration of some shells got nerfed, you think the vehicle deserves a -1.0 BR? Try to play any 8.0 and kill abrams reliably...

 

you can easily kill an abrams from the front with a T-54 thanks to the huge frontal weakzone

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What irks me more than anything else is the sudden step away from the usual pre warning for removing Vehicles.

 

In the past there was usual an 1 -2 week pre announcement before units got removed for good.

 

Even acknowledged in another topic

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 @Wulferine what? Why? We need decompression. As far as your "thoughts go": Point 1 absolutely yes

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On 11/02/2019 at 18:13, Stona said:

 

Feel free to discuss it here 

We just IMPLEMENTED the system, now it needs some time to be adjusted with BRs etc.

 

 

 

Table of what changes?

Wiki is made by humans, not AI ;)

 

 

We never says never (except few exceptions :D )

 

 

I linked thread where you can discuss it. There is really no point of copy-paste discussion here.

 

You still have the vehicles. If you manage to unlock them and buy, we will not remove them from your account. 

Dear Stona,

 

As a solid player of warthunder for the past, i guess it's 5 years, some of the implimentations have been good, but where the problem lies is in the maps and the way the game forces people to play. "Adjusting" ammo values in trying to bring armor meta for top tier isn't gonna do it. Your content creators(not including Slickbee or Phlydaily because they just produce videos) for example Scottishkoala and Europeancanadian summerizes the issues perfectly. Tank on tank combat mainly happens between 400-800m in this game which means that even with this update the game hasn't changed. Players still shoot to the same weakspots which with the optics we have is just too easy. Instead giving the tanks their proposed armor values and ammunition penetration values would calm a sizable player group and also giving us new game modes where we engage at a distance up to 2km, which in tank combat is now adays normal(even 3km is considered normal engagement range), and also removing the factor that forces us on close quaters combat. As a former 2A4 tanker i never expected to have a "realistic" representation of it, but not being able to fight the way it's supposed to is what made me move away from top tier meta and only played A1A1 because it WAS historically accurate, until this new implimention removed magically 50mm from the DM23. We understand that to have a standardized calculation system helps the developers but then claiming your updated values are historical is just wrong

 

I don't know if anyone will read this but i would still like to know if you sometimes just play your game for hours(Like an entire weekend, or many) to realize how many issues there are, or is it like with drugdealers that you don't use your own "****"? I will still continue to play the game only not with the tanks you provide because it's became a mess and only realiable tanks are WW2 era tanks, from which you have historical data. I hope with all my heart that you will heed the technical side of these comments and not the questions about what tanks, planes, maps, camos or ammuntion is removed

 

Sincerely, Lollipophuhu

Stona (Posted )

"i would still like to know if you sometimes just play your game for hours" https://warthunder.com/en/community/userinfo/?nick=Stona My game time is counted in months (RL).
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I guess my question to the devs on this is, at what shell diameter does de Marre break down? Because it must: if you plug a 50 cal's info (12.7mm, 0.052 kg with no burst mass, mv 890 m/s) you'd get a penetration value @0m of 34mm, when by all accounts it was never much above 22. So there's clearly a lower limit (~25mm?) below which the formula doesn't provide the full answer, and that suggests 20-25mm weapons in particular must be overpenetrating relative to historical to some degree.

 

Similarly a .30-06 round (7.62mm, 0.011 kg solid, mv 807 m/s) gives you a pen @0m of 17mm (all stats from https://wiki.warthunder.ru/New_formuls_for_calculating_of_the_armour_piercing), which can't be true either.

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The French 37mm APHE shells have 17mm of penetration at 10m, meanwhile, their fuse delay is 25mm.  I don’t think it’s out of line to say that the new system is very unrealistic, is there any possible way that the calculation only be used for conflicting sources (where the source with the closes values to the calculation) and shells that have no reliable penetration tests available?  I feel like historical sources should come first.

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16 hours ago, CMDRatkinson said:

I really would like to know what the reasoning behind removing the Ha Go, H35, and FCM36 was. I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the real world, these vehicles' guns had enough penetrating power to be useful (I think this applies most to the Ha Go). Removing them doesn't make sense, especially since they were fine both balance wise and historical accuracy wise before this patch. Honestly, removing them makes no sense. Even if they were useless, they were still fun. Not allowing new players access to these is sort of pointless, perhaps you could put them before other vehicles, and not counting towards tier 1 completion so that they could just be skipped over if a player so choses? 

 

Even before the recent changes, all of these tanks were generally noted as having extreamly poor and unfavorable shell performance. Particularly the French low tiers were not very popular since they were first added in 2017. Generally, they were not considered "fine" to many without any influence from the recent changes. 

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Regarding the removed. Ha-Go, FCM 36 and H.35. We will have some news to share on them in the future as well as the possibility of their return / obtainment. 

 

The developers are currently hard at work on the current change and we will have further updates and news to share in the near future. 

 

Thank you all for your continued feedback. We are still reviewing and passing daily :salute:

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I guess I don't understand why one would remove the Ha-Go, but keep the Ke-Ni in. They have the same gun, roughly the same armour and maneuverability.

 

There's good reason for removing the French tanks with the 37mm SA 18 because it comes up short in the penetration calcs, for sure, but the Ha-Go didn't suffer that much in the recent patch and as mentioned, there's another (less historically relevant) tank with the same capability that has basically taken its place.

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50 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Regarding the removed. Ha-Go, FCM 36 and H.35. We will have some news to share on them in the future as well as the possibility of their return / obtainment. 

 

The developers are currently hard at work on the current change and we will have further updates and news to share in the near future. 

 

Thank you all for your continued feedback. We are still reviewing and passing daily :salute:

Thats great thanks!

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Idk if the update affected it or not but the Sd.Kfz. 6/2 needs some kind of change. It cannot hurt many vehicles it faces even from the side, and has 20mm less penetration than its 1.0 battle rating counterparts. It's also completely unarmored minus gunshield and has a bad muzzle velocity so not only is it difficult to actually hit aircraft, they can strafe and kill you in a single pass. This thing should be like 2.3 br at best now.

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